The difference in the rapture and the second coming

[Eugene]

John wasn't on Patmos for vacation, as he was already suffering tribulation.

Rev 1:9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
​

Notice John is also already in the kingdom of Christ.2

Agree with this also.
2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

[Gregg]

'The difference in the rapture and the second coming' - about 10 days!

What does 10 days have to do with anything?

In my understanding of end time events, the LORD will return in the air on the Feast of Trumpets to gather the Church to Himself, whereafter He will present us [His Bride] to the Father in Heaven. Then 10 days later, on the Day of Atonement, the LORD will come again to rescue the nation of Israel from the Beast and carry out the wrath of God upon the Beast. Then, 5 days later on the Feast of Tabernacles, the LORD will set foot in Jerusalem and take His seat on the Temple mount.

 

[Eugene]

"Literally?" Kind of dismisses C1, V10.

You threw me for a moment with that reference to to Rev 1:10, "Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . ."

At the viewpoint from the Lord's Day 2000 or so years future to where John was caught in Spirit, in Rev 4:1 he would be shown things "hereafter" from that point when Jesus will receive His own throne in Rev 4:2, and the trumpets of judgment will not have begun.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is the third viewpoint Jesus told John to write of back in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

[Ricko]

Matt 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
would this be like a secret as it appears neither new at the time the one was taken

Are you saying these verses describe the rapture. They do not. This is the reaping unto judgement setting up the millennial kingdom. In the verses prior to this we read His coming will be like the days of Noah. Who were left on earth during the flood? The righteous were saved from the flood and from God's judgement. These verses describe the reaping unto judgement. Non of this chapter has anything to do with the rapture of the church. Jesus was simply answering the questions the disciples had asked Him.

 

[Malachi]

The doctrine of the Rapture is not as confusing or complicated as some may believe. We simply need to look at the actual Scriptures.
John 14:1-3
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 John 3:1-3
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

What are we taught in these Scriptures?
1. Christ will return from Heaven for His saints in order to take them to Heaven with Him. IOW There will be a specific coming of Christ FOR His saints (John 14:1-3).
2. When Christ comes for His saints, He will descend with a shout, a trumpet will sound and an archangel will also shout (presumably to call all the saints home). This will be "the last trumpet" for the saints (Note: this has nothing to do with judgments) (1 Cor 15:52; 1 Thess 4:16)
3. When He comes many believers will be alive, and those who are alive will be "changed" -- transformed, perfected, glorified (1 Cor 15:51).
4. At the same time the dead will be changed and their dead bodies will be raised "incorruptible", but also transformed, perfected, glorified (1 Cor 15:52).
5. The souls and spirits of those who died in Christ will be brought by Him to be joined to their incorruptible bodies (1 Thess 4:14).
6. The living saints will not precede or go ahead of those who are being resurrected, but the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thess 4:15,16).
7. Then the living saints will rise up "together" with them to meet the Lord in the air (atmosphere). The "clouds" are the clouds of glorified saints, since they will pass through the stratosphere as well as outer space to go directly to Heaven (1 Thess 4:17).
8. We shall all resemble Christ and we shall also see Him as He now is -- glorious with the brightness of God's glory (1 Jn 3:2).
9. We will be eternally with Christ as He promised in John 14:3 (1 Thess 4:17).

Now why is it so hard to understand that this has absolutely nothing to do with the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints (Rev 19:11-21), since none of this happens after the Great Tribulation when Christ comes to wage war on the ungodly?
Jude 1:14,15
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[Roro1972]

Are you saying these verses describe the rapture. They do not. This is the reaping unto judgement setting up the millennial kingdom. In the verses prior to this we read His coming will be like the days of Noah. Who were left on earth during the flood? The righteous were saved from the flood and from God's judgement. These verses describe the reaping unto judgement. Non of this chapter has anything to do with the rapture of the church. Jesus was simply answering the questions the disciples had asked Him.

Hey Ricko, no I was not saying they describe the rapture I had Asked if they do. I had thought they do.
Thanks for your response. thanks for clarification on them.

 

[Brother Mike]

Are you saying these verses describe the rapture. They do not. This is the reaping unto judgement setting up the millennial kingdom. In the verses prior to this we read His coming will be like the days of Noah. Who were left on earth during the flood? The righteous were saved from the flood and from God's judgement. These verses describe the reaping unto judgement. Non of this chapter has anything to do with the rapture of the church. Jesus was simply answering the questions the disciples had asked Him.

Some Rapture folks would agree with you, they also take those verses to mean that the flood is grabbing the tares out of there, and not Jesus taking folks out of the flood.

Hey Ricko, no I was not saying they describe the rapture I had Asked if they do. I had thought they do.
Thanks for your response. thanks for clarification on them.

First you should always go with what you Thought right. This is how the Holy Spirit leads us and we often overide that or let others override it. If you thought it had something to do with the Rapture, then I would stick with that. The Holy Spirit will show you why if it's correct. Many have over ride their knowing something into bad doctrines and the land of confusion. Go with what you believe you know inside, as the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth. Don't take someone's word on anything, check it out and you will know if it "Sounds right" in your heart.

Rapture Found in Matt 24:

I don't have my bible, on tablet, so grab a bible and follow along.

Matt 24:5. Many come in the name of Jesus saying I am Christ, or I am Anointed to do miracles. They don't come trying to fool people to think they are Jesus, but come in His name saying I can do miracles. You know them by their fruit, don't buy into bad fruit.
Christ is just the Greek Word for Anointing. Jesus the Anointed One. Hebrew word used was Mesiah.

Matt 24:14 The gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached all over the World, then the end comes.

Most believe that is us preaching the gospel, but Rev has a Angel preaching the gospel to all the kingdoms right before the end. My jury is out on this one.
If an Angel has to preach the Gospel though, we are not there. The Gospel of the Lord Jesus has been given to the Church to spread. Unless we are not around anyore.

Rev 14:6

Matt 24:15 The temple is set up for the Wicked one to take His seat as spoken about in Danial. Paul spoke about this.

Matt 24:16-20 Jesus talks to His people the Jews to flee into the Mountains, all in Judea flee, and hope that the day is not on the Sabbath day which the Jews keep reliegiously.
None of this pertains to us, unless you live in that area and are devout in keeping the Sabbath.

Matt 24:21 Jesus says there will be a great tribulation that this earth has never seen. This event is greater in destruction than the original flood in Noah's time. God is going to pound this earth with trumpets and Vials, most life will be extinguished.

This is the point we are delivered out of this Tribulation.

Dan 12:1 Danial says the same thing Jesus says. There will be a great tribulation this earth has never seen from time past to present, AT THAT time Michael will stand up and everyone found written in the book of life shall be delivered.

Dan 12:2 At the time we are delivered, a resserection event occurs. The dead in Christ get a new body first and meet the Lord in the air, those left here follow. Paul talks about this, Danial pinpoints the timing of the Ressurection event at the start of tribulation.

Matt 24:23-26
During this Tribulation, Jesus changes what to watch for. Instead of people coming in His name, saying they are anointed. He warns for People to watch for those that say they are actually Him.

Since we are not here and the light has been taken from the World, many come saying they are actually Jesus, not just someone coming in the name of Jesus.


Matt 24: 29-31 Immediatly after the tribulation which is signaled by the 7th Angel blowing his trumpet (Not the 7th trumpet as scripture never counted trumpets) The 6th and 7th seals are released. The sun goes dark, the moon and the Stars get rolled up and vanish. People have 1/2 hour of silence before the Lamb of God shows up and they try to hide from him. Rev 6

So, we have down to the exact Half hour by the signs of the 6th and 7th seal of when Jesus is coming at the end. People try to hide from him, so they know He is on the way.
Rev 6:15-17

Matt 24: 32-36
Jesus end there, and switches to something else. He said learn the parable of the fig tree. No man knows the day or Hour when He is coming. It's assumed the fig tree is Israel, and things will start to get heated there. Just assuming.
Jesus tells us no man knows the day, or Hour, but His Father in Heaven. Jesus just told us down to the exact last Half Hour when He comes at the end.
The time He is speaking about here is unexpected, unlike the first event he described when the sun, moon and stars vanish.

He goes on.

Matt 24:37-44

The son of Man shall come like the days of Noah. They were eating, having marriages, and not thinking a thing until Noah and his family shut the door of the Ark and the flood came and took them all away.

So shall the coming of the son of man be. Suddenly, unexpected.

Two different events here. The first event everyone endured the trumpets and other things God was doing. They also knew exactly when Jesus was coming because they tried to hide.

This event, everything seems normal until he shows up.

One is taken, the other left.

Jesus goes on

Matt 24:42 Watch, for you know not what Hour your Lord does come.

Once again, the folks in the first event had time to hide. In this event, those that consider Jesus Lord do not even know the hour, or know anything.

Matt 24:44 So watch and be ready, for you know not what Hour the son of man comes.

If I see the sun, moon and stars vanish, I know exaclty when He is comming immediatly after tribulation. In this event, those that call him lord and He calls them servants, they don't even know the Hour, and suspect nothing.

2 very different events.

Be blessed.

 

[Themessengeroftruth]

Some Rapture folks would agree with you, they also take those verses to mean that the flood is grabbing the tares out of there, and not Jesus taking folks out of the flood.



First you should always go with what you Thought right. This is how the Holy Spirit leads us and we often overide that or let others override it. If you thought it had something to do with the Rapture, then I would stick with that. The Holy Spirit will show you why if it's correct. Many have over ride their knowing something into bad doctrines and the land of confusion. Go with what you believe you know inside, as the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth. Don't take someone's word on anything, check it out and you will know if it "Sounds right" in your heart.

Rapture Found in Matt 24:

I don't have my bible, on tablet, so grab a bible and follow along.

Matt 24:5. Many come in the name of Jesus saying I am Christ, or I am Anointed to do miracles. They don't come trying to fool people to think they are Jesus, but come in His name saying I can do miracles. You know them by their fruit, don't buy into bad fruit.
Christ is just the Greek Word for Anointing. Jesus the Anointed One. Hebrew word used was Mesiah.

Matt 24:14 The gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached all over the World, then the end comes.

Most believe that is us preaching the gospel, but Rev has a Angel preaching the gospel to all the kingdoms right before the end. My jury is out on this one.
If an Angel has to preach the Gospel though, we are not there. The Gospel of the Lord Jesus has been given to the Church to spread. Unless we are not around anyore.

Rev 14:6

Matt 24:15 The temple is set up for the Wicked one to take His seat as spoken about in Danial. Paul spoke about this.

Matt 24:16-20 Jesus talks to His people the Jews to flee into the Mountains, all in Judea flee, and hope that the day is not on the Sabbath day which the Jews keep reliegiously.
None of this pertains to us, unless you live in that area and are devout in keeping the Sabbath.

Matt 24:21 Jesus says there will be a great tribulation that this earth has never seen. This event is greater in destruction than the original flood in Noah's time. God is going to pound this earth with trumpets and Vials, most life will be extinguished.

This is the point we are delivered out of this Tribulation.

Dan 12:1 Danial says the same thing Jesus says. There will be a great tribulation this earth has never seen from time past to present, AT THAT time Michael will stand up and everyone found written in the book of life shall be delivered.

Dan 12:2 At the time we are delivered, a resserection event occurs. The dead in Christ get a new body first and meet the Lord in the air, those left here follow. Paul talks about this, Danial pinpoints the timing of the Ressurection event at the start of tribulation.

Matt 24:23-26
During this Tribulation, Jesus changes what to watch for. Instead of people coming in His name, saying they are anointed. He warns for People to watch for those that say they are actually Him.

Since we are not here and the light has been taken from the World, many come saying they are actually Jesus, not just someone coming in the name of Jesus.


Matt 24: 29-31 Immediatly after the tribulation which is signaled by the 7th Angel blowing his trumpet (Not the 7th trumpet as scripture never counted trumpets) The 6th and 7th seals are released. The sun goes dark, the moon and the Stars get rolled up and vanish. People have 1/2 hour of silence before the Lamb of God shows up and they try to hide from him. Rev 6

So, we have down to the exact Half hour by the signs of the 6th and 7th seal of when Jesus is coming at the end. People try to hide from him, so they know He is on the way.
Rev 6:15-17

Matt 24: 32-36
Jesus end there, and switches to something else. He said learn the parable of the fig tree. No man knows the day or Hour when He is coming. It's assumed the fig tree is Israel, and things will start to get heated there. Just assuming.
Jesus tells us no man knows the day, or Hour, but His Father in Heaven. Jesus just told us down to the exact last Half Hour when He comes at the end.
The time He is speaking about here is unexpected, unlike the first event he described when the sun, moon and stars vanish.

He goes on.

Matt 24:37-44

The son of Man shall come like the days of Noah. They were eating, having marriages, and not thinking a thing until Noah and his family shut the door of the Ark and the flood came and took them all away.

So shall the coming of the son of man be. Suddenly, unexpected.

Two different events here. The first event everyone endured the trumpets and other things God was doing. They also knew exactly when Jesus was coming because they tried to hide.

This event, everything seems normal until he shows up.

One is taken, the other left.

Jesus goes on

Matt 24:42 Watch, for you know not what Hour your Lord does come.

Once again, the folks in the first event had time to hide. In this event, those that consider Jesus Lord do not even know the hour, or know anything.

Matt 24:44 So watch and be ready, for you know not what Hour the son of man comes.

If I see the sun, moon and stars vanish, I know exaclty when He is comming immediatly after tribulation. In this event, those that call him lord and He calls them servants, they don't even know the Hour, and suspect nothing.

2 very different events.

Be blessed.

The second coming of the lord christ and the rapture of the believers willl happen differently but at the time when the lord comes his people will be risen up in that same hour.

The rapture is the death of the saints. two in the field one taken the other left? where are they going to be taken? when the apostle ask jesus this he said where ever the body is there will the eagles be gather together.

Eagles gather to the dead.
once all the saints which are appointed to die is killed then the lord will return and the dead will be raised and the saints will be together with the lord.

 

[Themessengeroftruth]

As baghdadi's rebels in Africa separated the Christians from the Muslims and killed the Christians that did not convert at their work place. So it will be in the coming days upon the whole earth. The people will be mixed in but shall not cling to one another as iron does not mix with clay and at the time of the mark the people of the world will be separated all who take the mark will remain for a short time on the earth and all who refuse will be killed as iron tramples clay so will the people trample the righteous in those days

righteous that were trampled is the rapture.

at the end of the days the lord will come back and raise up the dead and the saints will be with him a thousand years. the remnant that remain will give glory to the god of heaven. but the remnant that remain never took the mark.

thats the judgment

 

[JLB]

Some Rapture folks would agree with you, they also take those verses to mean that the flood is grabbing the tares out of there, and not Jesus taking folks out of the flood.



First you should always go with what you Thought right. This is how the Holy Spirit leads us and we often overide that or let others override it. If you thought it had something to do with the Rapture, then I would stick with that. The Holy Spirit will show you why if it's correct. Many have over ride their knowing something into bad doctrines and the land of confusion. Go with what you believe you know inside, as the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth. Don't take someone's word on anything, check it out and you will know if it "Sounds right" in your heart.

Rapture Found in Matt 24:

I don't have my bible, on tablet, so grab a bible and follow along.

Matt 24:5. Many come in the name of Jesus saying I am Christ, or I am Anointed to do miracles. They don't come trying to fool people to think they are Jesus, but come in His name saying I can do miracles. You know them by their fruit, don't buy into bad fruit.
Christ is just the Greek Word for Anointing. Jesus the Anointed One. Hebrew word used was Mesiah.

Matt 24:14 The gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached all over the World, then the end comes.

Most believe that is us preaching the gospel, but Rev has a Angel preaching the gospel to all the kingdoms right before the end. My jury is out on this one.
If an Angel has to preach the Gospel though, we are not there. The Gospel of the Lord Jesus has been given to the Church to spread. Unless we are not around anyore.

Rev 14:6

Matt 24:15 The temple is set up for the Wicked one to take His seat as spoken about in Danial. Paul spoke about this.

Matt 24:16-20 Jesus talks to His people the Jews to flee into the Mountains, all in Judea flee, and hope that the day is not on the Sabbath day which the Jews keep reliegiously.
None of this pertains to us, unless you live in that area and are devout in keeping the Sabbath.

Matt 24:21 Jesus says there will be a great tribulation that this earth has never seen. This event is greater in destruction than the original flood in Noah's time. God is going to pound this earth with trumpets and Vials, most life will be extinguished.

This is the point we are delivered out of this Tribulation.

Dan 12:1 Danial says the same thing Jesus says. There will be a great tribulation this earth has never seen from time past to present, AT THAT time Michael will stand up and everyone found written in the book of life shall be delivered.

Dan 12:2 At the time we are delivered, a resserection event occurs. The dead in Christ get a new body first and meet the Lord in the air, those left here follow. Paul talks about this, Danial pinpoints the timing of the Ressurection event at the start of tribulation.

Matt 24:23-26
During this Tribulation, Jesus changes what to watch for. Instead of people coming in His name, saying they are anointed. He warns for People to watch for those that say they are actually Him.

Since we are not here and the light has been taken from the World, many come saying they are actually Jesus, not just someone coming in the name of Jesus.


Matt 24: 29-31 Immediatly after the tribulation which is signaled by the 7th Angel blowing his trumpet (Not the 7th trumpet as scripture never counted trumpets) The 6th and 7th seals are released. The sun goes dark, the moon and the Stars get rolled up and vanish. People have 1/2 hour of silence before the Lamb of God shows up and they try to hide from him. Rev 6

So, we have down to the exact Half hour by the signs of the 6th and 7th seal of when Jesus is coming at the end. People try to hide from him, so they know He is on the way.
Rev 6:15-17

Matt 24: 32-36
Jesus end there, and switches to something else. He said learn the parable of the fig tree. No man knows the day or Hour when He is coming. It's assumed the fig tree is Israel, and things will start to get heated there. Just assuming.
Jesus tells us no man knows the day, or Hour, but His Father in Heaven. Jesus just told us down to the exact last Half Hour when He comes at the end.
The time He is speaking about here is unexpected, unlike the first event he described when the sun, moon and stars vanish.

He goes on.

Matt 24:37-44

The son of Man shall come like the days of Noah. They were eating, having marriages, and not thinking a thing until Noah and his family shut the door of the Ark and the flood came and took them all away.

So shall the coming of the son of man be. Suddenly, unexpected.

Two different events here. The first event everyone endured the trumpets and other things God was doing. They also knew exactly when Jesus was coming because they tried to hide.

This event, everything seems normal until he shows up.

One is taken, the other left.

Jesus goes on

Matt 24:42 Watch, for you know not what Hour your Lord does come.

Once again, the folks in the first event had time to hide. In this event, those that consider Jesus Lord do not even know the hour, or know anything.

Matt 24:44 So watch and be ready, for you know not what Hour the son of man comes.

If I see the sun, moon and stars vanish, I know exaclty when He is comming immediatly after tribulation. In this event, those that call him lord and He calls them servants, they don't even know the Hour, and suspect nothing.

2 very different events.

Be blessed.

It's one event!

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


There is no measurable time between the Resurrection and The Rapture.

If there is please point it out within this verse 17.

...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. = One Event!



JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

The second coming of the lord christ and the rapture of the believers willl happen differently but at the time when the lord comes his people will be risen up in that same hour.

The rapture is the death of the saints. two in the field one taken the other left? where are they going to be taken? when the apostle ask jesus this he said where ever the body is there will the eagles be gather together.

Eagles gather to the dead.
once all the saints which are appointed to die is killed then the lord will return and the dead will be raised and the saints will be together with the lord.

One of Post trib's Aces in the Hole, the scripture in Luke 17. I am impressed you know about it, because most post tribbers do a horrible job of defending their doctrine.

I am on a tablet now, I have an answer for that. I can't do it justice until I get to my PC.

Because of that Scipture you mentioned, some Pre-tribbers admit that Matt is all about the end of tribulation. They use other scriptures to prove a rapture.

I submit, that One scripture in Luke, does not negate the fact that we have two distinct times of Jesus coming in Matt 24.

I pointed those out and they should not be ignored.

One taken, and one left. Is the focus on the bad people? or the People underneath who call him Lord? I believe it can be looked at both ways depending on what slant you want to use, and both would be correct.

However, we have no Ressurection event at the end of Tribulation. That is problematic for Post trib.

I'll keep the eagle thing in mind until I get to a PC.

The other Key Word is Apostasia. The meaning of that changes the time tables of the Lord comming also.

 

[Brother Mike]

It's one event!

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


There is no measurable time between the Resurrection and The Rapture.

If there is please point it out within this verse 17.

...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. = One Event!



JLB

It's not one event, I thought I left you in that other thread about the same subject?

Blessings anyway Brother. You ignored my concrete evidence as I broke down the book of Matthew. Two events.

One Jesus comes immediatly after the 6th and 7th seal by which people have time to run and hide.

One Jesus comes when everyone is not expecting anything, having marriages, and knowing nothing until He shows up.

Two events. Not one event.

 

[Malachi]

Rapture Found in Matt 24:

Brother Mike,
You had this bolded as a sub-heading, but none of the Scriptures quoted revealed a Resurrection/Rapture. At the time that Christ gave that sequence of events, the Church was yet future (not too distant) but it was never Christ's intention to bring the Church into these prophecies which relate to Israel in the context of the destruction of the Temple (Mt 24:1,2) and the questions of the Jewish apostles (to whom the Church had not as yet been revealed) regarding (a) the time of the destruction of the Temple, (b) the signs preceding the Second Coming, and (c) the Second Coming itself. It was only after the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost and Peter was sent to the household of Cornelius that "the Church" became a reality fo the apostles.

Matthew 24 speaks of "the Abomination of Desolation", "the holy place", "Judea", "the sabbath day", but not "the Church". It also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ "with power and great glory". Finally it speaks of "the elect".

So who are these elect ones? Are they the Church or are they the believing Jewish remnant on earth? Notice what Scripture says in Romans 11:5,26-28:
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace....
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Please note the word "election" as used for Israel here, and connect this passage to Mt 24:31:
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We are exhorted to "rightly divide [interpret] the Word of Truth". God has a plan for the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) and then He has a plan for Israel (the elect).

 

[JLB]

It's not one event, I thought I left you in that other thread about the same subject?

Blessings anyway Brother. You ignored my concrete evidence as I broke down the book of Matthew. Two events.

One Jesus comes immediatly after the 6th and 7th seal by which people have time to run and hide.

One Jesus comes when everyone is not expecting anything, having marriages, and knowing nothing until He shows up.

Two events. Not one event.

Please stop trying to distract from the truth that Paul teaches us about this event, by referring to Revelation.


Here in the Rapture scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul shows us that the Resurrection and rapture are one event that occurs at His Coming.


17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

There is no measurable time between the Resurrection and The Rapture.

If there is please point it out within this verse 17.

...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. = One Event!



JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike,
You had this bolded as a sub-heading, but none of the Scriptures quoted revealed a Resurrection/Rapture. At the time that Christ gave that sequence of events, the Church was yet future (not too distant) but it was never Christ's intention to bring the Church into these prophecies which relate to Israel in the context of the destruction of the Temple (Mt 24:1,2) and the questions of the Jewish apostles (to whom the Church had not as yet been revealed) regarding (a) the time of the destruction of the Temple, (b) the signs preceding the Second Coming, and (c) the Second Coming itself. It was only after the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost and Peter was sent to the household of Cornelius that "the Church" became a reality fo the apostles.

Matthew 24 speaks of "the Abomination of Desolation", "the holy place", "Judea", "the sabbath day", but not "the Church". It also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ "with power and great glory". Finally it speaks of "the elect".

So who are these elect ones? Are they the Church or are they the believing Jewish remnant on earth? Notice what Scripture says in Romans 11:5,26-28:
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace....
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Please note the word "election" as used for Israel here, and connect this passage to Mt 24:31:
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We are exhorted to "rightly divide [interpret] the Word of Truth". God has a plan for the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) and then He has a plan for Israel (the elect).

If you read my statement above, or could be posted before you posted. I already stated that I also see the other view of not splitting Matt up one for the jews, one for the chruch. Post tribbers and Pre tribbers think Jesus is speaking to the Church and it could be none of it is for the Church.

I just outlined a Pre-trib observation of a possible 2 event coming and splitting up Matt.

I would not use Matt as a definitive proof of a Pre-trib rapture.

Please stop trying to distract from the truth that Paul teaches us about this event, by referring to Revelation.


Here in the Rapture scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul shows us that the Resurrection and rapture are one event that occurs at His Coming.


17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

There is no measurable time between the Resurrection and The Rapture.

If there is please point it out within this verse 17.

...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. = One Event!



JLB

Have you ever noticed in Matt or Mark nothing is mentioned about getting caugt up in the air with Jesus?

Instead they are gathered from Heaven, and the Earth. Ever notice that?

 

[Themessengeroftruth]

One of Post trib's Aces in the Hole, the scripture in Luke 17. I am impressed you know about it, because most post tribbers do a horrible job of defending their doctrine.

I am on a tablet now, I have an answer for that. I can't do it justice until I get to my PC.

Because of that Scipture you mentioned, some Pre-tribbers admit that Matt is all about the end of tribulation. They use other scriptures to prove a rapture.

I submit, that One scripture in Luke, does not negate the fact that we have two distinct times of Jesus coming in Matt 24.

I pointed those out and they should not be ignored.

One taken, and one left. Is the focus on the bad people? or the People underneath who call him Lord? I believe it can be looked at both ways depending on what slant you want to use, and both would be correct.

However, we have no Ressurection event at the end of Tribulation. That is problematic for Post trib.

I'll keep the eagle thing in mind until I get to a PC.

The other Key Word is Apostasia. The meaning of that changes the time tables of the Lord comming also.

why does god mention the same eagles parable in mathew 24? the only difference in luke is its more clear

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[Brother Mike]

why does god mention the same eagles parable in mathew 24? the only difference in luke is its more clear

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

As I said, wife still using computer. Netflix................ ughhh.... The whole post trib pre trib hang on just a few scriptures. All the other arguements on both sides are easy to defeat. The Eagles thing is 1 for Post trib, unless it can be explained in a reasonable way without getting all crazy about it.

The timeing of the ressurection does not matter. The dead in Christ raised first, then the rest can occur at any time and part of the first ressurection.

I have to get on the computer, tablet is hard to use.

Despite the eagles which I will explain, I did show clearly two different events in Matt. One suddenly, One where they get time to run and hide.

All events need put together perfectly, then we find the right thing. INcluded those eagles.

 

[Brother Mike]

What are your Scripture passages to back your statement?

The 144,000 end up at the throne of God in Rev 14. They may have walked, or taken a space shuttle, but I doubt it.

ok so theres how many ressurections?

jesus says one. the resurrection of the just and unjust.

a rapture is a resurrection.

Those dead in Christ get ressurected first or those that are his. The other one happens after the 1,000 years when Hell and everyting else give up the dead for judgement. Rev 20.

Jesus said in Rev 14:13 Blessed are those that die in the Lord henceforth. They get a rest from their labors.

So there are two according to Danial 12:2 Those that awake to good things, those that don't make out so well.

All those that die in the Lord Henceforth will get a new body and die a various times to join Lord. The first Ressurection are all those In the Lord.

Rev 20:6 kjva Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

All those that have a "PART" in the first, which occur at various times depending on when the person in the Lord bought the farm. The first Ressurection all belong to the Lord. Which is what Dan 12:2 says.

Eagles:

Jesus said.
Luk 17:36-37 kjva 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

 

[The Poly Grip Kid]

I dont think any 'rapture', but if there was i think would be right on that 7th trump to be keep from the 'hour' of the 7 bowls, the last woez. That is after 2 woez have already past so no pre-trib.

rev 10:7
rev 11:12
rev 11:14
rev 11:15
rev 11:19

I was taught Pre Trib Doctrine since I was a child so I have been indoctrinated into that belief but the more I study the scripture for my self and stop cutting and pasting the scripture to make it fit the pre trib belief the more I believe the pre wrath or pre millennium doctrine.
I would like to think that we would be caught up before the tribulation but I think that the followers of Christ who are alive when the tribulation starts will have to endure the tribulation. I believe before the the seventh trump is blown those saints who have survived the tribulation will be caught up To be with Christ and Father God before Gods pours out his wrath on the earth the marriage supper will take place then the saints will return with Christ to conquer satan and his unholy trinity and to rule and reign with him on earth for the millennium.

 

[The Poly Grip Kid]

In my understanding of end time events, the LORD will return in the air on the Feast of Trumpets to gather the Church to Himself, whereafter He will present us [His Bride] to the Father in Heaven. Then 10 days later, on the Day of Atonement, the LORD will come again to rescue the nation of Israel from the Beast and carry out the wrath of God upon the Beast. Then, 5 days later on the Feast of Tabernacles, the LORD will set foot in Jerusalem and take His seat on the Temple mount.

^This^