The "End Times"

[Edward]

The vast majority of scholars agree that Daniel was written late and translated later. The Septuagint is hardly datelined.

Name some.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Name some.

The original Septuagint version of Daniel is dated to about 100 BCE. The whole Septuagint can be dated from the 3rd to the 1st centuries BCE but specific dates are difficult. See Jennifer M. Dines, The Septuagint (edited by Michael A. Knibb); also Daniel J. Harrington's Invitation to the Apocrypha; Watson Mill's and Richard Wilson's The Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha with Richard Spencer's chapter "Additions to Daniel".

The 100 BCE date is satisfactorily established. But you can go earlier with the texts at Qumran, the earliest copy of Daniel being dated to 125 BCE. Thus Daniel was being copied as early as forty years after its compositin.

 

[T. E. Smith]

The original Septuagint version of Daniel is dated to about 100 BCE. The whole Septuagint can be dated from the 3rd to the 1st centuries BCE but specific dates are difficult. See Jennifer M. Dines, The Septuagint (edited by Michael A. Knibb); also Daniel J. Harrington's Invitation to the Apocrypha; Watson Mill's and Richard Wilson's The Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha with Richard Spencer's chapter "Additions to Daniel".

The 100 BCE date is satisfactorily established. But you can go earlier with the texts at Qumran, the earliest copy of Daniel being dated to 125 BCE. Thus Daniel was being copied as early as forty years after its compositin.

See also Amy C. Merrill Willis in the New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha:

Jewish tradition, however, puts Daniel in the section of the Tanakh called the Writings between the books of Esther and Ezra, perhaps because of its late date of composition.
...
Several major historical errors in chapter 1 suggest that the author wrote long after the Babylonian conquest of Judah... The stories [in chapters 1-7] probably began as individual stories that were written during the Persian period (539-333 BCE) [and]... were updated during the early Hellenistic period (333-170 BCE).
...
Chapters 8-12, however, were composed in Hebrew in Judea between 167 and 164 BCE... The book ends without mentioning the rededication of the Temple in December 164, or Antiochus' death at about the same time.

It's pretty conclusive.

 

[for_his_glory]

I hear you, but the "land" being healed is the believers themselves,

I can agree with this, but on the other side of the coin if everyone in the world would turn back to God then He would once again bring the land back to us as it was in the garden of Eden in the beginning.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't have a good answer for this the other day, but I do now. So Daniel was written after the fact huh?

I have spotted the giant hole in your theory. It's called the Septugant. The translated all those books into Greek in...285 BC....Daniel was among them in the translated books.

Boom, goes your theory.

The book of Daniel was written around 530BC and the Septuagint was written around 285-246BC

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I can agree with this, but on the other side of the coin if everyone in the world would turn back to God then He would once again bring the land back to us as it was in the garden of Eden in the beginning.

He's bringing the Garden of Eden back to believers now, because he's teaching us day by day how to live in peace with God and our fellow man, (not to mention the care of the rest of creation).
This world as it is now, will never be at peace like that, because they don't have the peace that passes all understanding,

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1Cor.13:2

Jesus' charity of going to the cross mystifys unbelievers. To us it's the love of God.

 

[T. E. Smith]

The book of Daniel was written around 530BC and the Septuagint was written around 285-246BC

Your dating of Daniel is about 250 years off, and the Septuagint was written over a much broader time period than that.

 

[eddif]

He's bringing the Garden of Eden back to believers now, because he's teaching us day by day how to live in peace with God and our fellow man, (not to mention the care of the rest of creation).
This world as it is now, will never be at peace like that, because they don't have the peace that passes all understanding,

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1Cor.13:2

Jesus' charity of going to the cross mystifys unbelievers. To us it's the love of God.

Are y’all sure you want the garden of Eden restored?
I thought we are under a new and better covenant .
In Eden you had continuing life as long as you ate from the physical tree of life. Yes that tree was a type and shadow of Jesus, but not the reality of Jesus Christ. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the earth. One sin in Eden and it was over. Get out of the garden.

Sin no longer has dominion over us, but we still regretfully sin on occasion. The resurrection will bring immortality,and the end of sin. The Eden contract if your did eat of the tree of good and evil you would die. I am not saying our name can not be removed from the lambs book of life, but I am saying we have a better covenant now.

I love you guys and gal, and this is not a declaration of war. Just a redneck making a comment.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There much work and negotiations going on behind closed doors to allow the Temple to be built next to the Dome of the Rock since the Holy of Holies was most likely where the Dome of the Spirits is now.

Maybe but I would bet a large amount of $$$ that the Muslims will never let their Dome be demolished and that would be necessary.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ignorance abounds on both sides of the Christian/Jew equation. Much harm has been throughout history by ignorant people in the name of God.

It’s not always ignorance.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Maybe so, but after certain events happened, they realized their error. 1948 ring a bell? Up from the ashes like a miracle...

No, not at all. Jerusalem wasn’t surrounded by armies and the christians didn’t think it was the fulfillment of Matthew 24.

So yes they did believe like you say for a long time. And they were wrong for a long time. Those things did happen as prophesised but there's a lot more prophecy than that!

That’s your view, of course. My view is different and was believed for centuries and still is in some circles.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Let's not get tangled up in your apron strings now. The boy says he's a man, so let the men talk, lol.

The 144,000 is 12,000 from each tribe. That's what it means. That's what it says. Want the scripture for that one?

I know, but there are no records of who is from what tribe today. They were all destroyed. So you can’t have 12000 from each tribe (no mixing) if there are no known tribe distinctions. Why is this do difficult for you to get? The residents of Israel and Jews everywhere do not identify themselves as to which tribe they are from because they don’t know. If they would claim such, they cannot establish it. The records (necessary) are gone.

 

[Edward]

I know, but there are no records of who is from what tribe today. They were all destroyed. So you can’t have 12000 from each tribe (no mixing) if there are no known tribe distinctions. Why is this do difficult for you to get? The residents of Israel and Jews everywhere do not identify themselves as to which tribe they are from because they don’t know. If they would claim such, they cannot establish it. The records (necessary) are gone.

So? I don't know how God is going to do it, but I'm simply taking Him at His Word, as He wrote it it in the scriptures.

Besides with their new technology, ground penetrating radar and stuff, they're making more new archeological finds every day. They could easily find the records that you speak of. They might find them today, lol. Who knows?

I'm just saying, that's what the scriptures say. 12,000 from each tribe. I tink the Bible says what it means and means what it says. Who says God could not produce these bloodline records? Impossible? Surely you jest, Sister! This is God that we're talking about, what He said He will do.

I haven't seent Him fail at anything yet. Have you?

 

[eddif]

Ok

I know, but there are no records of who is from what tribe today. They were all destroyed. So you can’t have 12000 from each tribe (no mixing) if there are no known tribe distinctions. Why is this do difficult for you to get? The residents of Israel and Jews everywhere do not identify themselves as to which tribe they are from because they don’t know. If they would claim such, they cannot establish it. The records (necessary) are gone.

So are you saying if a Jew becomes a Christian there is no wall between Jew and Gentile, because genetics decides Jewishness?

Ephesians 2:14 kjv
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, somaking peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Unwind this for me.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So? I don't know how God is going to do it, but I'm simply taking Him at His Word, as He wrote it it in the scriptures.

I do as well. It was prophesied and completed in the past. I fully trust God and amazed at the fulfillment of prophesy.

Besides with their new technology, ground penetrating radar and stuff, they're making more new archeological finds every day. They could easily find the records that you speak of. They might find them today, lol. Who knows?

I know. They were burned in 70 AD. Jesus said it would be destroyed and I believe him. You know, I am trusting the words of Jesus he spoke recorded in Matthew 24.

I'm just saying, that's what the scriptures say. 12,000 from each tribe. I tink the Bible says what it means and means what it says. Who says God could not produce these bloodline records? Impossible? Surely you jest, Sister! This is God that we're talking about, what He said He will do.

It is better to trust the words Jesus spoke in Matthew 24. That’s my view. Btw, I think it’s better to see what God actually does, not imagine on our own power what he could do.

I haven't seent Him fail at anything yet. Have you?

He doesn’t seem to fulfill what men imagine. There are some who exited the faith because they imagined He’d do XYZ, and when He didn’t, they left. It’s dangerous to imagine what He might do instead of seeing what he does do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ok

So are you saying if a Jew becomes a Christian there is no wall between Jew and Gentile, because genetics decides Jewishness?

I doubt any Jew would agreed. Some Jews are converts in any case, and have no bloodline from Abraham. This is known in history.

Ephesians 2:14 kjv
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, somaking peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Unwind this for me.

eddif

What is it you want to know? I’m lost.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is my understanding of Matthew 24:21.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Not since the beginning of the world to this time, time meaning when Jesus was literally talking to the disciples of future events as there was much tribulation before that exact time. Nor ever shall be after the return of Christ as Jesus said, immediately after the tribulation of those days, meaning from the time He showed the disciples of what must come first before His return on the last day after the ending of the 3 1/2 year reign of the son of perdition who will ware out the saints trying to force them to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death.

I do understand your theological position as stated above. Do you understand mine?

“Coming in the clouds” is a Hebrew reference to judgement and appears elsewhere in the Bible but not in reference to Jesus. It is not a reference to the second coming. It is severe judgement in which God ends a people or culture.

That is my view. Again, you needn’t agree, but it would be good if you were open to understanding my view.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What about the rest God created as in affliction, distress and misery.

That’s a fair question but it’s somewhat broad. I’m afraid I don’t understand what is asked of me. Could you, please, rephrase that for me?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.

Correct. It was not known in the centuries before. That’s why the birth of the rapture theory dates back to the 19th century but not before. It has done significant damage to the church when the Americans embraced it, according to some.

Sorry, but not a proud statement, but the very words Jesus taught in what I understand Him to be saying without any of man's theories. I never ask anyone to agree with me, but read scripture for what has already been written apart from all the theories that are out there.

It would be better to say that your view is just your view, not Jesus’ view. Jesus spoke of two events not connected in Matthew 24, one with ample signs and one with none. They are not the same event. Jesus’ words do not say they are one, but his words actually say the early events were to happen soon after Revelation was written. Those too, are Jesus’ words but in conflict with your view. That’s all I meant. Not all you think is what Jesus thinks, I suspect. Surly most of us would say that of ourselves.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (This happened in 70AD) 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Two different questions.

The disciples asked Jesus three questions, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world. Jesus first said to them "Take heed that no man deceive you." then he continued to answer their three questions. The first one was of the destruction of the Temple and that happened in 70AD. The rest still continues today as this world waxes worse and worse as we can see with our own eyes, 2 Timothy 3:12-1

I disagree. The destruction of the temple and those verses around it end when he starts talking about his return. Then there is no destruction and no signs. Starts at verse 36. No signs and no disaster. That’s over starting verse 36. Verse 36 is the future. Verses 1-35 are now past. That is my view.

{You said: For centuries the christians believed those events happened in 70AD}

What happened in 70AD was the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that Jesus told them about as many Jews lost their lives and possessions that day all because they were not obedient to God. During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times as they walked in disobedience to God's commands.

The Jews had always kept their culture, their tribes and their faith. They still had their sacrifices and tribes and Mosaic worship. That is now gone for good. And no captivity was what happened in 70 AD. It was horrible beyond anything they’d experienced as described in Rev and Matthew 24. That’s what Josephus described. They weren’t merely carried away. Their culture was destroyed as the judgement of God, the blood of all the prophets required of that generation. That is my view of these matters.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

• For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Great Tribulation refers to a world wide persecution against Christians.

• Great meaning encompassing a vast area; worldwide
• Tribulation by context refers to the persecution of Christians.

John says it this way —


Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-17

• Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

• And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The abomination that causes desolation is what causes the grest tribulation in Israel. It shall also cause great tribulation upon alm the nations that attack Jerusalem.

It does not cause great tribulation in my home country though because it is my home country that places the abomination that causes desolation in jerusalem as well as all the cities of the nations that attack my home countries military in Jerusalem.

Our armed forces are not going to place the abomination that causes desolation here in the north.

Also Id like to add, our armed forces place the abomination of desolation on the day of the Lord. It is at that time of great distress that the saints in Israel are delivered. It's the end of the persecution of the saints in Israel.

Daniel 12:1 - Michael's Deliverance and the End Times

At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will...

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Daniel 12:2 - Michael's Deliverance and the End Times

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

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In this verse, Daniel writes at the time of great distress, his people are delivered and the resurection that's place.