The Eternal Kingdom/Reign of Jesus Christ

[SolaScriptura]

The emphasis of (Heb. 1:5-6) is to show the superiority of the Son over the angels. The 'agains' used in (5-6), are to show there is again another verse to prove this.

(Heb. 1:5) quotes from (Ps. 2:7) which (Acts 13:33) identifies as the Resurrection.

Whether or not (Heb. 1:6) speaks to the Incarnation or the Resurrection is immaterial. The term 'Firstbegotten' would apply either way.

Quantrill

all of these verse speak of the Incarnation

 

[Becky1]

all of these verse speak of the Incarnation

Sola dont give up .. there are many who read that do not post.

 

[for_his_glory]

Psalm 2:7, "I will tell of the decree: Yahweh said to Me, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father"

Which, as can be seen from Herbrews 1:6, is speaking of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, which is in the future

"For to which of the angels did he say at any time, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father?” and again, “I will be to him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?”

Isaiah 9:6, also confirms this, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". These words in bold are in the future tense.

As does Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". Note, not IS "called", but the future tense, "κληθήσεται", SHALL BE CALLED, referring to the Birth of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 does not say, "In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God", which is the eternal relationship between the Father and Jesus Christ.

Likewise, in John 1:18, the reading with the strongest textual evidence reads, "No one has seen God at any time. The Unique God, who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared him.

Only in about 2 places Jesus Christ is referred to as "Son" in the Old Testament, as in Psalm 2:7, but always in Prophecy. We never read of the term, "God the Father" in the Old Testament.

The main description for Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, is "Malakh YHWH", which is often translated as "The Angel of Yahweh"; or "The Messenger of Yahweh"; Who, as can be seen from Exodus 3, is Himself "Yahweh", "Elohim" and "Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh". Showing Jesus' absolute equality with the Father and Holy Spirit!

You said: I do not believe that Jesus' "Sonship", is eternal, but rather Incarnational.

All those scriptures you gave are only about His incarnation here on earth, but proves nothing of the Sonship being eternal.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This is Jesus speaking these words declaring the decree that God told him He is the Son of God. This was way before His birth. Being the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God has been with the Father from all eternity. His incarnation was that historic point when the Son of God was made flesh in order to relate to humanity as that is why He was baptized by John the Baptist, but knew no sin.


Jesus has always been eternal as Alpha and Omega, no beginning and no end. Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead, co-equal in Deity, the word of God made flesh in God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world, the begotten Son of the Father here on earth as He is in heaven who sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us before the Father.

It was God who sent His word, (Son) into the world, John 1:1- 18, and it was God who took His Son out of the world through His Son's death and resurrection and it will be God who sends His Son back to earth on the last day to gather all of God's sons and daughters as they will see the Son coming in the clouds in the same fashion He was taken up into the clouds, Acts 1:11, to receive them who are His own, Matthew 24:36.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Son of God who has always been His begotten Son will always have that Sonship with the Father as being the second person of the Godhead.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You said: I do not believe that Jesus' "Sonship", is eternal, but rather Incarnational.

All those scriptures you gave are only about His incarnation here on earth, but proves nothing of the Sonship being eternal.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This is Jesus speaking these words declaring the decree that God told him He is the Son of God. This was way before His birth. Being the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God has been with the Father from all eternity. His incarnation was that historic point when the Son of God was made flesh in order to relate to humanity as that is why He was baptized by John the Baptist, but knew no sin.


Jesus has always been eternal as Alpha and Omega, no beginning and no end. Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead, co-equal in Deity, the word of God made flesh in God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world, the begotten Son of the Father here on earth as He is in heaven who sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us before the Father.

It was God who sent His word, (Son) into the world, John 1:1- 18, and it was God who took His Son out of the world through His Son's death and resurrection and it will be God who sends His Son back to earth on the last day to gather all of God's sons and daughters as they will see the Son coming in the clouds in the same fashion He was taken up into the clouds, Acts 1:11, to receive them who are His own, Matthew 24:36.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Son of God who has always been His begotten Son will always have that Sonship with the Father as being the second person of the Godhead.

Jesus Christ is not the Son before His Birth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Can you give one verse from the Old Testament that talks about the Father and the Son?

 

[Randy]

all of these verse speak of the Incarnation

I think they also show the Son who was.
"about the Son"
The creation was made before the firstborn entered the world.

And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

A Son who is before all things and through whom the Father made the creation. One in whom the fullness was pleased to dwell.

Just as the Son holds to His testimony
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

This is the testimony the church holds to
Jesus was begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made -true God from true God

 

[Quantrill]

The fact that there is no reference to "Father and Son" in the OT, as it very clearly taught in the NT, shows that before His Incranation, when Jesus Christ became the God-Man, He was not the "Son".

There have always been Three Persons in the Godhead, in the OT we have the Three as YHWH, Jesus Christ as the Angel of the YHWH, or God and YHWH. And the Father, is known as God and YHWH. Then the Holy Spirit is also known as YHWH, etc.

As it says in Luke 1:35, "The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God". Not IS called.

Is that so? (Proverbs 30:4) "...who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell.?

Gee...sounds like a Father and a Son. There is your one verse you asked for.

Concerning (Luke 1:35), you offer proof for what Scripture is saying. Jesus would not be begotten of God until the Resurrection. I explained already. At the incarnation, Jesus was God the Son given. At the Resurrection He was born of God. The Son of God.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

all of these verse speak of the Incarnation

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

And, as I said, concerning (Heb. 1:6), it doesn't matter if it pertains to either the Incarnation or Resurrection.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Jesus Christ is not the Son before His Birth.

Jesus Christ is not 'begotten' of God until the Resurrection.

Jesus Christ is God the Son from all eternity past. The Second Person of the Godhead.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

A Son who is before all things and through whom the Father made the creation

so Who does Genesis 1:1 refer to, where it says GOD Created? It does not say that the Father Created through the Son, this is theological nonsense!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus Christ is not 'begotten' of God until the Resurrection.

Read Matthew 1:18

 

[SolaScriptura]

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

And, as I said, concerning (Heb. 1:6), it doesn't matter if it pertains to either the Incarnation or Resurrection.

Quantrill

so you agree with what I am saying. Both these events are historical, and therefore not from eternity past! Which is what I am saying, that "Sonship" is after Jesus was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and not before, as is clear from Luke 1:35.

 

[for_his_glory]

so Who does Genesis 1:1 refer to, where it says GOD Created? It does not say that the Father Created through the Son, this is theological nonsense!

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

How do you explain this verse as in who "him" is in the full context from vs 1-18.

 

[Quantrill]

Read Matthew 1:18

That child of the Holy Ghost was the Holy Thing of (Luke 1:35). The Son given. No problem.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

so you agree with what I am saying. Both these events are historical, and therefore not from eternity past! Which is what I am saying, that "Sonship" is after Jesus was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and not before, as is clear from Luke 1:35.

Of course I don't agree with you. That should be evident.

Jesus is God the Son incarnate. Jesus was not begotten of the Father until the Resurrection.

God exists as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

What is clear from (Luke 1:35) is that Mary begot a son. But the Father did not begot a Son until the Resurrection. He gave the Son at the Incarnation.

Quantrill

 

[Free]

so you agree with what I am saying. Both these events are historical, and therefore not from eternity past! Which is what I am saying, that "Sonship" is after Jesus was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and not before, as is clear from Luke 1:35.

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ESV)

It seems to me that Paul believed that the sonship was eternal--"by him [the Son] all things were created ... he [the Son] is before all things." Jesus is the name given to the incarnate Son of God but he has always been the Son.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Which agrees with:

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

and,

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

How could it be said that God gave his only Son, if the Son didn't exist prior to the Incarnation? Whom then did God give that became his Son?

 

[Quantrill]

Read Matthew 1:18

Read (Proverbs 30:4) which you ignored.

And, comment on it. You asked...and you were told. Now what?

Quantrill

 

[Randy]

so Who does Genesis 1:1 refer to, where it says GOD Created? It does not say that the Father Created through the Son, this is theological nonsense!

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

1 corth
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live

Col 1
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

1 corth
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live

Col 1
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Do you know any Greek grammar? If you do, you should know that the prepositon "διά", which can be translated as "through", has the original meaning of "between the two". This is very clear in Galatians 1:1, "Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead". Where it is used for both Jesus Christ and the Father together. BOTH called Paul to the ministry. Likewise, Creation is the Act of all Three of the Persons in the Godhead. In Hebrews 1:10-12, we have the Father addressing Jesus as the actual Creator, and uses Psalm 102:24-27, which is for Elohim, for Jesus Christ! In Job 33:4, we read, "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life". the same Hebrew for "Made" is used in the Creation account in Genesis 1 and 2!. In Ecclesiastes 12:1, as elsewhere, it says, "Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth", where the Hebrew for "Creator", is the plural "בּ֣וֹרְאֶ֔יךָ", literally, "Creators".

 

[SolaScriptura]

Read (Proverbs 30:4) which you ignored.

And, comment on it. You asked...and you were told. Now what?

Quantrill

Indeed, I see this, as Isaiah 9:6, as Prophecy. As I have said, apart from a few OT references, Jesus Christ is mainly known as "The Angel of YHWH", or "YHWH", or, "ELOHIM".