The Eternal Kingdom/Reign of Jesus Christ

[SolaScriptura]

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ESV)

It seems to me that Paul believed that the sonship was eternal--"by him [the Son] all things were created ... he [the Son] is before all things." Jesus is the name given to the incarnate Son of God but he has always been the Son.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Which agrees with:

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

and,

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

How could it be said that God gave his only Son, if the Son didn't exist prior to the Incarnation? Whom then did God give that became his Son?

Isaiah 9:6, is a Prophecy of the FUTURE giving of Jesus Christ as Savioir. The NT references are all post Incarnation, when Jesus is known as the Son

 

[Quantrill]

Indeed, I see this, as Isaiah 9:6, as Prophecy. As I have said, apart from a few OT references, Jesus Christ is mainly known as "The Angel of YHWH", or "YHWH", or, "ELOHIM".

You asked for a reference of Father and Son concerning God in the Old Testament, and now you have it.

But, what a surprise, you don't believe it.

No, it's a question asked about the Creator. He has a Son. Of course that Son would be Jesus Christ later. But the Creator has a Son at that time of creating.

Thus you not only don't believe the New Testament concerning the eternality of the Son, but you don't believe the Old Testament either.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Isaiah 9:6, is a Prophecy of the FUTURE giving of Jesus Christ as Savioir. The NT references are all post Incarnation, when Jesus is known as the Son

So? That He, Who is given, is the Son. The prophecy is that the Son will be given. That doesn't change the fact that the Son is given.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

So? That He, Who is given, is the Son. The prophecy is that the Son will be given. That doesn't change the fact that the Son is given.

Quantrill

can you explain the purpose of the use of "Son" as you have given from the OT? How many times does anyone refer to or speak of the "Son" in the OT? Is He even mentioned in connection with the Children of Israel in any way? Is He mentioned in ay way in connetcion with God the "Father"? In fact, in Isaiah 9:6, the Son is also referred to as "Father"! Lets see some answers to this?

 

[Randy]

Do you know any Greek grammar? If you do, you should know that the prepositon "διά", which can be translated as "through", has the original meaning of "between the two". This is very clear in Galatians 1:1, "Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead". Where it is used for both Jesus Christ and the Father together. BOTH called Paul to the ministry. Likewise, Creation is the Act of all Three of the Persons in the Godhead. In Hebrews 1:10-12, we have the Father addressing Jesus as the actual Creator, and uses Psalm 102:24-27, which is for Elohim, for Jesus Christ! In Job 33:4, we read, "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life". the same Hebrew for "Made" is used in the Creation account in Genesis 1 and 2!. In Ecclesiastes 12:1, as elsewhere, it says, "Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth", where the Hebrew for "Creator", is the plural "בּ֣וֹרְאֶ֔יךָ", literally, "Creators".

what is man that You are mindful of him,
or the son of man that You care for him?
5You made him a little lower than the angels
You crowned him with glory and honor.
6You made him ruler of the works of Your hands;
You have placed everything under his feet:

All things were created through Him and for Him

 

[Randy]

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The Father spoke through the prophets and in these last days through his Son and He made the creation through the Son

By Him (Jesus) God made all things and Paul adds all things were made for Jesus

In regard to the firstborn of all creation the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him

It is the Father in His Son doing His work

Jesus has always been the Son and He is before all things and He is all that the Father is and He and the Father are ONE.

 

[JLB]

Read through my replies here, you will see that I do not deny that Jesus Christ is the Son AFTER His human Birth, as Scriptures tell us. Prior to this time, in the OT, He is mostly called "The Angel of the Lord", Who is also YHWH, and distinct from the Father and Holy Spirit, Who are also YHWH.

Yes, we agree.


Do you agree that in the OT that, He as the Angel of the Lord, He is the Son of God?

 

[SolaScriptura]

"διά"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The Father spoke through the prophets and in these last days through his Son and He made the creation through the Son

By Him (Jesus) God made all things and Paul adds all things were made for Jesus

In regard to the firstborn of all creation the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him

It is the Father in His Son doing His work

Jesus has always been the Son and He is before all things and He is all that the Father is and He and the Father are ONE.

Hebrews 2:10 reads, "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings"

Here we have the same Greek preposition, "διά", used in the same case, genitive, as in the Bible references that you quote, for Jesus Christ, where, according to you, means "through". Question is, WHO is the Person Creating THROUGH God the Father, as Hebrews 2:10 clearly shows?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yes, we agree.


Do you agree that in the OT that, He as the Angel of the Lord, He is the Son of God?

There is no mention of "the Son of God" anywhere in the Old Testament. "The Angel of YHWH", Jesus Christ, became known in the New Testament, as "the Son of God". This Title is Incarnational and post conception, and not pre Incarnational. Never in the OT is "the Son of God" said to do anything. Why is this?

 

[Randy]

Hebrews 2:10 reads, "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings"

Here we have the same Greek preposition, "διά", used in the same case, genitive, as in the Bible references that you quote, for Jesus Christ, where, according to you, means "through". Question is, WHO is the Person Creating THROUGH God the Father, as Hebrews 2:10 clearly shows?

I read it all things are FROM the Father.

he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

I don't know why you are having such difficulty?
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[JLB]

There is no mention of "the Son of God" anywhere in the Old Testament. "The Angel of YHWH", Jesus Christ, became known in the New Testament, as "the Son of God". This Title is Incarnational and post conception, and not pre Incarnational. Never in the OT is "the Son of God" said to do anything. Why is this?

And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.” “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
Daniel 3:23-25

 

[Randy]

And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.” “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
Daniel 3:23-25

luke 3:38 - before Adam
the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

 

[SolaScriptura]

And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.” “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
Daniel 3:23-25

well, this translation is not what the Hebrew says:

" אֱלָהִֽין׃ לְבַר־", literally, "a son of gods". the plural is used.

 

[SolaScriptura]

luke 3:38 - before Adam
the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

the Greek reads, "τοῦ Ἀδὰμ τοῦ θεοῦ", of Adam, of God", there is no "the son" in the Greek!

 

[Quantrill]

can you explain the purpose of the use of "Son" as you have given from the OT? How many times does anyone refer to or speak of the "Son" in the OT? Is He even mentioned in connection with the Children of Israel in any way? Is He mentioned in ay way in connetcion with God the "Father"? In fact, in Isaiah 9:6, the Son is also referred to as "Father"! Lets see some answers to this?

Of course I can. A son is a son. Pretty simple. God the Creator has a Son. Old Testament....which is what you asked for and got, but don't believe. (Pro. 30:4)

Oh, my. You demand answers now. You who ignore my questions and posts, demand answers. Typical.

The Son, as God, is involved with Israel just as much as the Father. Just as much as the Holy Spirit. All are God. But just like the Trinity, the Son's involvement was not as well revealed until the New Testament. Just like so many things in the Old Testament were not as clear until the New Testament.

Concerning (Is. 9:6) you have the involvement of the Trinity. And, just like I told you before, I can't explain the Trinity. I believe it, but cannot explain it.

Now, since I have answered the questions you demanded, how about answering mine. Does Jesus Christ possess the body He had when He was resurrected? If so, how long will He possess that body?

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

Of course I can. A son is a son. Pretty simple. God the Creator has a Son. Old Testament....which is what you asked for and got, but don't believe. (Pro. 30:4)

Oh, my. You demand answers now. You who ignore my questions and posts, demand answers. Typical.

The Son as God is involved with Israel just as much as the Father. Just as much as the Holy Spirit. All are God. But just like the Trinity, the Son's involvement was not as well revealed until the New Testament. Just like so many things in the Old Testament were not as clear until the New Testament.

Concerning (Is. 9:6) you have the involvement of the Trinity. And, just like I told you before, I can't explain the Trinity. I believe it, but cannot explain it.

Now, since I have answered the questions you demanded, how about answering mine. Does Jesus Christ possess the body He had when He was resurrected? If so, how long will He possess that body?

Quantrill

you have not answered anything! I don't see ONE mention of the Son of God anywhere in the OT! I don't see the Son of God in the Exodus of the Children of Israel, but I do see The Angel of YHWH. I don't see the Son of God in the account of the Burning Bush, in Exodus chapter 3, but I do see The Angel of YHWH. I don't see the Son of God in the giving of the Ten Commandments, but I do see The Angel of YHWH. In fact, when we read of the Coming of Jesus Christ in Malachi chapter 3, it is again, not the Son of God, but The Angel of the Covenant, Who is also The Lord!, etc, etc.

 

[Free]

Isaiah 9:6, is a Prophecy of the FUTURE giving of Jesus Christ as Savioir. The NT references are all post Incarnation, when Jesus is known as the Son

All the NT references are statements made post-incarnation, but they are referring to points in the past prior to the Incarnation, namely, eternity past. Paul clearly implies that the Son was involved in creation. This is also seen in Heb 1:2.

John says that God gave his only Son. It makes no sense to say that God gave his Son, if the Son is only a reference to the Incarnation. One gives what they already have. This is also seen in John 20:21, Gal 4:4, and 1 John 4:10, 14. These all strongly imply that Jesus was the Son prior to the Incarnation. They make little sense otherwise.

Looking at 1 John 3:8, the Son of God "appeared", or "was made manifest" or "made visible". This strongly implies that he was already existing as the Son prior to the Incarnation, that his being the eternal Son was now being made visible. We should also consider Heb 13:8. Clearly the point is that he has always been the same; there has been and will be no change in who he is. So, either Jesus, as the Son, is the same yesterday as he is today and will be forever, or he is not.

 

[Quantrill]

you have not answered anything! I don't see ONE mention of the Son of God anywhere in the OT! I don't see the Son of God in the Exodus of the Children of Israel, but I do see The Angel of YHWH. I don't see the Son of God in the account of the Burning Bush, in Exodus chapter 3, but I do see The Angel of YHWH. I don't see the Son of God in the giving of the Ten Commandments, but I do see The Angel of YHWH. In fact, when we read of the Coming of Jesus Christ in Malachi chapter 3, it is again, not the Son of God, but The Angel of the Covenant, Who is also The Lord!, etc, etc.

I did answer. (Prov. 30:4) "what is his name, and what is his son's name". The Creator is God. And God has a Son.

So, again, still waiting for you, who demand I answer your questions, to answer mine. Does Jesus Christ possess the body now that He had when He was resurrected? If so, how long will He possess it? These are important questions...which you realize. Which is why you try and ignore them.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

All the NT references are statements made post-incarnation, but they are referring to points in the past prior to the Incarnation, namely, eternity past. Paul clearly implies that the Son was involved in creation. This is also seen in Heb 1:2.

John says that God gave his only Son. It makes no sense to say that God gave his Son, if the Son is only a reference to the Incarnation. One gives what they already have. This is also seen in John 20:21, Gal 4:4, and 1 John 4:10, 14. These all strongly imply that Jesus was the Son prior to the Incarnation. They make little sense otherwise.

Looking at 1 John 3:8, the Son of God "appeared", or "was made manifest" or "made visible". This strongly implies that he was already existing as the Son prior to the Incarnation, that his being the eternal Son was now being made visible. We should also consider Heb 13:8. Clearly the point is that he has always been the same; there has been and will be no change in who he is. So, either Jesus, as the Son, is the same yesterday as he is today and will be forever, or he is not.

Because the NT writers are writing after the fact of the Incarnation, when Jesus Christ became the God-Man. They are therefore referring to Jesus as the Son as He is known after His human birth! look at #96

 

[SolaScriptura]

I did answer. (Prov. 30:4) "what is his name, and what is his son's name". The Creator is God. And God has a Son.

So, again, still waiting for you, who demand I answer your questions, to answer mine. Does Jesus Christ possess the body now that He had when He was resurrected? If so, how long will He possess it? These are important questions...which you realize. Which is why you try and ignore them.

Quantrill

Jesus Christ after His Resurrection had His human body as before His death, but modified. He still has this same body today in heaven. He will have the same body at His Second Coming. Whether He will ever be in this body, Scripture does not tell us.

Do you believe in the Eternal Generation of the Son from the Father?