The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[JLB]

I’ve already answered: your reductionist approach, seeing the trees but not the forest.

Can you tell me which post number where you answered this question?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Can you tell me which post number where you answered this question?

You asked a loaded question with your own assumption that the three periods were “separate”, whereas angel Gabriel said that seventy weeks - as a whole - are determined. He didn’t say 7, 62 and 1 weeks are determined separately, that’s your own idea.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I’ve already told you, the messiah must be a prophet like Moses raised among his brethren, which means a Jew, Deut. 18:15.

Moses was Moses in order to carry out & fulfil a specific part of God's plan for the nation Israel .
It stands to reason then that God will put the antichrist in charge of Jews to fulfil another specific part of His plan just for the Jews .
Yes ?
No ?

 

[JLB]

You asked a loaded question with your own assumption that the three periods were “separate”, whereas angel Gabriel said that seventy weeks - as a whole - are determined. He didn’t say 7, 62 and 1 weeks are determined separately, that’s your own idea.

Gabriel's words --

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:24-27


Brother if you are just going to blatantly deny the truth of scripture and specifically the words of Gabriel, then please don't bother to post.




JLB

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Brother if you are just going to blatantly deny the truth of scripture and specifically the words of Gabriel, then please don't bother to post.

Who's blatantly denying, brother? Show me where's the word "separate"? Where's the gap between the first 7 and 62? Where's the entire church age between the 62 and the final one?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Moses was Moses in order to carry out & fulfil a specific part of God's plan for the Israel .
It stands to reason then that God will put the antichrist in charge of Israel to fulfil another specific part of His plan just for the Jews .
Yes ?
No ?

Again, I've already told you, the first will be last, and the last first, that's the plan. They will be there to witness the second coming.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Moses was Moses in order to carry out & fulfil a specific part of God's plan for the nation Israel .
It stands to reason then that God will put the antichrist in charge of Jews to fulfil another specific part of His plan just for the Jews .
Yes ?
No ?

Also, Moses was Moses who was raised in that specific time and place, this prophet is another leader of Israel who's LIKE Moses in ANOTHER specific time and place, that doesn't mean a carbon copy of Moses. Jews who denied Jesus, the true prophet like Moses, will naturally look for a false prophet to fill that role, that's where the Antichrist fits in. This seems pretty simple and obvious to me, I don't know why it's such a conundrum to you and what you're really up to with such a string of weird questions in a mocking tone.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Just Checking

 

[JLB]

Who's blatantly denying, brother? Show me where's the word "separate"? Where's the gap between the first 7 and 62? Where's the entire church age between the 62 and the final one?

Brother, here are your words...

whereas angel Gabriel said that seventy weeks - as a whole - are determined. He didn’t say 7, 62 and 1 weeks are determined separately

Again, here are Gabriel's words to Daniel -


Gabriel's words --

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:24-27

If you want to discuss the actual words of scripture, then let's please continue.

If you want discuss man made, denominational doctrine, then I won't participate, as that only leads to strife and division.

For instance, Church age is not mentioned in this prophecy, because it's about the Jews and Jerusalem.

• “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city...

JLB

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

For instance, Church age is not mentioned in this prophecy, because it's about the Jews and Jerusalem

Then what’s your point? What do you wanna prove? I know what the Scripture says, I’m here to learn about what you say.

 

[JLB]

Then what’s your point? What do you wanna prove? I know what the Scripture says, I’m here to learn about what you say.

My only point so far is that the 70 weeks are divided into three distinct time periods.

In addition:

The 7 weeks and 62 weeks (69 weeks) ends with an event called Messiah the Prince.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

My only point so far is that the 70 weeks are divided into three distinct time periods.

In addition:

The 7 weeks and 62 weeks (69 weeks) ends with an event called Messiah the Prince.

Then you have no point. I've told you that I know what the Scripture says, I'm here to learn what other people make of it. So far the only thing you've shown is your reductionist mind set.

 

[BB1956]

Hi Carry_Your_Name

Yes, but that would mean that Jesus was somehow like Adam... not that Adam was somehow like Jesus. I believe the reference to Jesus being the second or last Adam has to do with the process that brought them to life. That seems to be what Paul writes to us:

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

God bless,
Ted

The only begotten Son of God became like the first Adam when God caused his only begotten Son to become a perfect sinless human. God created the first Adam a perfect sinless human, but the first Adam didn't remain in that state of being a perfect sinless human. However, the last Adam did remain in this perfect sinless human state. The only begotten Son of God who came to mankind as a perfect sinless human like the first Adam, was consistently obedient to the only true God YHWH. So when the only begotten Son of God sacrificed his perfect sinless human body, his human body which was without spot or blemish when sacrificed, this perfect sinless human was what was needed to buy back what the first Adam sold into slavery to sin and death, his offspring, or descendants.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The only begotten Son of God became like the first Adam when God caused his only begotten Son to become a perfect sinless human. God created the first Adam a perfect sinless human, but the first Adam didn't remain in that state of being a perfect sinless human. However, the last Adam did remain in this perfect sinless human state. The only begotten Son of God who came to mankind as a perfect sinless human like the first Adam, was consistently obedient to the only true God YHWH. So when the only begotten Son of God sacrificed his perfect sinless human body, his human body which was without spot or blemish when sacrificed, this perfect sinless human was what was needed to buy back what the first Adam sold into slavery to sin and death, his offspring, or descendants.

Yes, well said. When we’re resurrected in the kingdom, it’ll be a restored Eden, in which our new glorified bodies are like that of Adam’s in a sinless, pristine state. Jesus is the first resurrected among the dead, and the same life giving spirit that raised him from the dead will resurrect us who are in one body with him.

 

[reddogs]

How does he gain that kind of power to make slaves of millions
Does he establish an enforcement army Instantly, or over a period of time thru his political skills, as Hitler did ?

Think of the mandates and how the whole world was forced to do what was dictated to them...not hard at all..

 

[reddogs]

If all people in the world are persecuted equally by him , what is the point of him establishing his intimate involvement with nation Israel , and then turning on them ?
Why does he single them out ?
What is behind his obsession with the Jews to the point establishing a third Temple for them & fooling them into believing he is their Messiah, if he only plans to offer them the same mark of the beast deal that everybody else gets anyway ?

It is nothing but confusion, there is no truth in it..

 

[Alfred Persson]

Conclusion:
There is no 7-year Tribulation at the end of the world. That teaching comes from a huge mistake resulting in reading much more into a verse than what is actually there. There will be tribulation at the end but it wont be 7 years long for it falls outside of the Daniel 9 prophecy.

I agree, the 70th week of Daniel ended with Christ the anointed being cut off.

Then the times of the Gentiles began:

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Lk. 21:24 NKJ)

But Daniel 9:27 is about another week, not contiguous with the 70 weeks. That week exists in the book of Revelation:

The two witnesses of God preach for 3.5 years and then are slain by the Antichrist who continues to rule another 3.5 years until Amageddon:

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. (Rev. 11:3-7 NKJ)

NKJ Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:1-5 NKJ)

The Antichrist who is the "mouth speaking great things" is "son of destruction (perdition) "little horn" of Daniel, who first appeared as "the man of sin" false Christ and conquered the earth as the "Chancelor" of the Revived 10 horn beast of Daniel. For the first forty two months he allowed all the world's religions to sacrifice to their gods, but at mid week he declares he is god and outlaws any sacrifice to anyone but himself:

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan. 9:27 NKJ)

So the end time week is 7 years long. As for the Tribulation, that starts at midweek with the killing of the two witnesses.

 

[Davidwb54]

Between 32 AD and 39 AD was the Lord's earthly ministry in Judea, from Jesus's baptism to Cornelius's baptism. After that, Jews were spiritually blinded, they will not know Jesus until the "fig tree generation" at the end times.

Well actually Jesus was crucified around 28-29AD, due to an error in the calculating of the first year of 1AD. Not sure exactly how that happened other than most scholars now agree that since King Herod died in 4BC then Christ could not have been born later than 6BC, according to the time Herod was looking for him, at least 2 years

Also I believe He was actually born in late September but for times sake I won't try to document that now. But that would fit perfectly with His 3 1/2 year ministry since He was likely crucified in late March or early April. Either way you can find out more about the dating error on Wikipedia.

 

[Davidwb54]

"And FROM THE TIME that the daily sacrifices are taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days." (Daniel 12:11)

Now maybe you can argue about just how much of that period will be GREAT tribulation, and I recall one comment early on about the 5 months in Revelation 9. And this could coincide with the 150 days that the floods "prevailed" on the earth. Since as Christ said those days would be "as in the days of Noah". But he was actually in the ark for about a year, so maybe that could represent the time when things will be real BAD, or maybe the time the tribulation has been shortened to? Since Christ never did indicate by just how much those days would be shortened.

 

[Blade]

Hey all I wanted to touch on this part of what the OP said
"The pretribulation rapture theory is a relatively recent development in Christian theology, with its roots in the 19th century. John Nelson Darby, a British evangelist and influential figure in the Plymouth Brethren movement, is often credited with popularizing this idea. Darby’s teachings, along with the widespread distribution of the Scofield Reference Bible in the early 20th century, helped to promote the pretribulation rapture theory among Christians in the United States and beyond."

Many years ago I went searching to see if anyone talked about the Pre-Trib after Christ rose AMEN. I found a Hymn writer/preacher who wrote about Christ coming to catch us up before (Caught up) the great tribulation. I don't know what to say when people post 1830/1900 saying that's when this Pre-Trib doctrine started. So I found this Hymn writer who wrote about Christ coming to get His Church before the great tribulation dating 300-400ad. Its on the Internet other preachers have talked about this guy. So when Paul and Jan were alive there was this man how had a show he had white hair and he talked about this Hymn writer and showed those scrolls on TV. Later different shows he showed more dating back before 300-400ad.

But we can go back to 1600 it was written about. And you know now what this proves right? Yeah nothing other then it was talked about preached out. Its like talking about the great "falling away". Did you know that word also means "departure" and that word was once used in the bible before "falling away" . But most that talk this for some odd reason do not bring it up.

There is no verse/scripture that clearly says PRE MID POST in the bible. Not sure why Pre Trib really gets treated so bad. God took 2 people in OT you know Caught up/Raptured. He didn't tell anyone before hand. HE is going to do what He wants. If we look at it for me it starts to make sense. Well He is no thief but He comes takes whats His and to the rest it will be as if a thief came. Now all that said and done since I cannot prove PRE MID POST and I was not promised tomorrow hmm what if I live for Him now what if I look watch for His coming in the clouds now? Yeah there will be no man on earth saying "YES I WAS RIGHT" for no man will glory in His sight. It will happen when we least expect it. Your ready or your not. Odd how many believers that believe in JESUS yes? Hes alive and in you yes?

Well can you not just ask Him about this? Since He left He has never ever told one person PRE or MID or POST was right or wrong. Yeah never. Man reads His word man then tell us what they personally believe and DUH what they personally believe is the real gospel.. what others believer duh is wrong. Just be ready now.. its HIM only HIM.. to be thinking of Him every day and watching what you do so you live right. Its a house many are busy doing other things.. some are looking out the window watching.. HE is coming