The False Security of Eternal Security

[BornAgain]

John 6:27-29 KJV

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This shows that some, at least, among those to whom our Lord spoke, were not hypocritical; they were simply worldly and materially minded; having learned that eternal life was available through working for the "food" which does not perish, they were desirous of knowing of what such work consisted. They were told simply that it is the work of God that they should believe on Christ whom the Father had sent. Belief is thus said to be a work of God. Some, mistaking Paul's teaching that salvation is not "of works," assume that this excludes baptism as a condition of salvation on the ground that it is something one does. The "works" which Paul excludes from God's plan to save are those of which one might "boast" Eph 2:8,9. James includes works, as does Peter: James 2:20,24 Acts 10:34, 35. The "works" which Paul excludes are the works of the law; the "works" which James and Peter include are the commandments of the Lord. Matt 7:21. To exclude all work from the plan of salvation is to exclude faith which is by our Lord affirmed to be a work. Jesus joined faith and work here; denominational theologians seek to separate them.


Men who truly believe will anxiously seek to determine all that the Lord desires of them and do this; the disposition to question the validity of some commands of the Lord and to classify them as non-essential is not genuine belief; it is just the opposite. Distrust and disregard, presumption of the highest order. Faith—-belief—is a work of God in the sense it is that which God has ordered man to do. This does not mean that God requires nothing more than belief; it teaches us that without it all else is worthless since all other response to God's will results because of it.

 

[rrowell]

The only thing worse than one not being saved, is one not being saved thinking one is.

 

[Danus]

The only thing worse than one not being saved, is one not being saved thinking one is.

Care to clear up this ambiguity? I should delete it, but I'll give you the opportunity to clearly explain it.

We're not going to suggest who is save and who is not. You can speak of your own salvation if you like. are you speaking of your own salvation?

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

If you choose to make believing in Christ Labour/work you are entitled to your work. However, many of us do not see believing as work. We are drawn to the Lord by the Holy Spirit's work and saved by Jesus' work at the cross.

Earlier you made this statement also. I do not understand just what you might mean by it.
What did Christ do for you on the Cross that He did not do for someone else? or for every human being?

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13,

Earlier you made this statement also. I do not understand just what you might mean by it.
What did Christ do for you on the Cross that He did not do for someone else? or for every human being?

I mean for it to sound that way. I'll have to be more careful.
What He accomplished at the cross was for everyone. But I think from what I have read on the threads that it must mean different things to different people.

 

[rrowell]

Care to clear up this ambiguity? I should delete it, but I'll give you the opportunity to clearly explain it.

We're not going to suggest who is save and who is not. You can speak of your own salvation if you like. are you speaking of your own salvation?

Notice I said "one" not indicating "anyone" in particular, it is another way of saying what the title of this thread is.

I asked you a question earlier, show me scripture that supports your view that you were "chosen" and I was not, (Not using Charles Spurgeon or John Calvin proclamation ), use Scripture Danus.

You claim to be saved (oppose the OP) there is nothing you can do about it, could not change it if you wanted to, I claim that it is a false security with no biblical support. and I believe if someone holds to such a claim, they think they are saved, and I believe they are not!

 

[rrowell]

Care to clear up this ambiguity? I should delete it, but I'll give you the opportunity to clearly explain it.

We're not going to suggest who is save and who is not. You can speak of your own salvation if you like. are you speaking of your own salvation?

Delete it under what grounds Danus? It actually says what the OP (title of this forum) is saying. Is it any more bold than you saying you believe you were chosen (saved) and others not (unsaved)?

What are you saying Danus? If we don't believe as you our post will be deleted?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

OK. Good luck to you then.

Charles Stanley says:

"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand." (a)

"Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy." (b)

"... believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ...." (c)


(a) Eternal Security Can You Be Sure? (P. 74).

(b) Ibid. (p. 93).

(c) Ibid. (p. 94).


In 1949 Sam Morris, a Baptist preacher in Stamford, TX, preached a radio sermon that he later turned into a tract entitled Do A Christian’s Sins Damn His Soul? Morris stated:

"We take the position that a Christian’s sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude towards other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul … All the prayers a man may pray all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger."
​

Bill Foster, a Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY, wrote in the March 12, 1959, edition of The Weekly Worker:

"If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women I couldn’t go to hell–in fact, I couldn’t go to hell if I wanted to."


​

So if one is not really saved to begin with due to some sinful action, then that is making salvation dependent upon action/works. So do you agree with Stanley where one's salvation is not dependent upon anything he does or is one "really" saved only if he behaves, acts in a certain way?

In other words, can (1) a Christian lie, steal, murder, fornicate etc and still maintain his salvation or will you say (2) he was not really saved to begin with as evidence by these sinful actions? Charles Stanley, Sam Morris, Bill Foster would go with #1, what say you?


Please answer a simple question. Is it #1 or #2?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Great scripture to pick Brother Ernest,
John 6:27-29

If you choose to make believing in Christ Labour/work you are entitled to your work. However, many of us do not see believing as work. We are drawn to the Lord by the Holy Spirit's work and saved by Jesus' work at the cross.
Take into the context of whom Jesus was talking to. They were Jews, they understood legalism and works of righteousness in order to earn their place with God. They asked what works they could do and He said believe on Me.
This didn't seem to satisfy their need to feel that they could do something or their need to feel they were righteous by their own doings. Of coarse they were angry because Jesus said He basically was their provider, the bread from heaven.
I know people who will do favors all day for others but they won't ask someone else to help them. They don't like to feel indebted to someone else. Their pride gets in the way.

If belief is not a work it is dead. If belief is just some mental assent of the mind the devils will be saved for that is the very kind of belief they have for they have a belief void of obedient works.

Jn 6:27 one has to continuously hear and follow Christ to qualify to be one of His sheep. Can a sheep quit hearing and following Christ yet remain a sheep of Christ? A 'yes' answer denies and refutes what verse 27 says.

 

[Cassian]

Ernest T. Blass,

Charles Stanley says:

"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand." (a)

"Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy." (b)

"... believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ...." (c)


(a) Eternal Security Can You Be Sure? (P. 74).

(b) Ibid. (p. 93).

(c) Ibid. (p. 94).


In 1949 Sam Morris, a Baptist preacher in Stamford, TX, preached a radio sermon that he later turned into a tract entitled Do A Christian’s Sins Damn His Soul? Morris stated:

"We take the position that a Christian’s sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude towards other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul … All the prayers a man may pray all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger."
​

Bill Foster, a Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY, wrote in the March 12, 1959, edition of The Weekly Worker:

"If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women I couldn’t go to hell–in fact, I couldn’t go to hell if I wanted to."
​

These are amazing quotes. One must then also believe that God was not looking,dreaming, or sleeping when Adam slipped from His Hand.



​

 

[Danus]

Delete it under what grounds Danus? It actually says what the OP (title of this forum) is saying. Is it any more bold than you saying you believe you were chosen (saved) and others not (unsaved)?

What are you saying Danus? If we don't believe as you our post will be deleted?

I took "Mitspa quote" out, since you said you are not addressing anyone specifically. You don't need to quote him to make that statement.

If you don't believe you are chosen, that's between you and God. The only time I am obligated to interrupt you is when you feel the need to suggest others are not chosen. It's OK if your not and you want to say that. That might be true. I don't know. But, when other explain their salvation, they are not forcing that on you. They are just sharing that.

So that we are clear, you are the one saying your NOT chosen. I never said you are not chosen. If you have faith in Christ Jesus as your savior then you are chosen by God. As for scripture take your pick. There are tons and tons of scripture explaining how we are chosen by God, chosen for salvation. Here are just a few.

Ephesians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

2 Thess. 2:13
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

1 Tim. 5:21,"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality."

2 Tim. 2:10
"For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory."

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Revelation 13:8
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.



The bible explicitly tells us that God is the one in charge. Other verses that speak to God's sovereign work onto man.

Exodus 7:1
And the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

1 John 4:8
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,†for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Adullam]

On the way to work this morning I was scanning through the radio dial and came across a program where someone (Adrian Rogers I think) was teaching on eternal security. His "proof text" was Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." From what I heard he never mentioned verse 27 that goes with verse 28, verse 27 says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"


To qualify as one of Christ's sheep and be in the hand of God requires that one hear and follow Christ. Both verbs "hear" and "follow" are in the Greek present tense showing an on-going, sustained acton and not just a one time or occasional action. One of his own will chooses to hear and follow and as long as he hears and follows Christ he cannot be snatched from God's hand. But if one of his own will chooses to quit hearing and following, he disqualifies himself from being a sheep of Christ and removes himself from God's hand.


There are two sides to salvation:

1) man's faithfulness to God

2) God's faithfulness to man.

Verse 27 shows (1) man's faithfulness to God by man having an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. Verse 28 shows (2) God's faithfulness to man in not allowing man to be snatched away as long as man remains faithful to God. The radio speaker only wanted to talk about (2) God's faithfulness to man as if God will be unconditionally faithful to man whether or not man remains faithful to God in his hearing and following.


(The radio speaker falsely claimed Judas was never saved and then purposely misquoted Jn 6:64 by saying "Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe.")

Agreed!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Blass,

These are amazing quotes. One must then also believe that God was not looking,dreaming, or sleeping when Adam slipped from His Hand.



​

Calvinists have told me that all men are born with original sin, therefore all men are born sinners, born lost due to this sin that all men supposedly inherited from Adam at birth. Yet if Adam's sin did not cause him to be lost then how can inheriting that same sin cause anyone else to be lost?


As to the question I asked Danus, most who believe in eternal security will not admit to #1 as Stanley and others do for it is just a bad looking position that is opposite to what the bible says. So instead of saying a Christian can abandon his faith or commit sin and still maintain salvation they get around that by saying if a Chrsitian commits such sinful acts he was never a true Christian to begin with. But by saying this, they are making one's acts to be the determining factor if he is a true, saved CHritian or not which defeats their faith alone position which says acts/works have nothing to with being a saved Christian. So I wait to see which way Danus will go.

 

[rrowell]

I took "Mitspa quote" out, since you said you are not addressing anyone specifically. You don't need to quote him to make that statement.

He made a statement "Dont feel too bad Deb13 it seems many have a new doctrine for each day?
I wonder what kind of doctrine it takes to replace the witness of the Holy Spirit? Glad I dont have to make up my salvation, It lives in me!"

My position is there is but one doctrine, and since him and I apparently don't agree we are under the same doctrine, one of three things are true, 1) he is right. 2) I am right. 3) neither of us are right.

This leads to my post, "The only thing worse than one not being saved, is one not being saved thinking one is."

Note my use of the Adjective "one", that could be "me", "him" or "you"... there is nothing wrong with me quoting him.

Another example how you don't moderate, you manipulate, you abuse the privilege given you.

If you don't believe you are chosen, that's between you and God. The only time I am obligated to interrupt you is when you feel the need to suggest others are not chosen. It's OK if your not and you want to say that. That might be true. I don't know. But, when other explain their salvation, they are not forcing that on you. They are just sharing that.

So that we are clear, you are the one saying your NOT chosen. I never said you are not chosen. If you have faith in Christ Jesus as your savior then you are chosen by God. As for scripture take your pick. There are tons and tons of scripture explaining how we are chosen by God, chosen for salvation. Here are just a few.

Ephesians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Lets just start with your first quote, how is it that you believe you are "in him" and who do you believe the "us" is in your quote from Paul?

Or better yet, I will retract my question to you in favor of you answering the question brought by Ernest T. Bass

 

[Deborah13]

If belief is not a work it is dead. If belief is just some mental assent of the mind the devils will be saved for that is the very kind of belief they have for they have a belief void of obedient works.

Jn 6:27 one has to continuously hear and follow Christ to qualify to be one of His sheep. Can a sheep quit hearing and following Christ yet remain a sheep of Christ? A 'yes' answer denies and refutes what verse 27 says.

NASB
John 6:27 - " "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." "

Please lets be patient with one another. I do not understand why you are using a scripture where Jesus is talking to unbelievers, to ask a question about the condition of His sheep. Please explain.

Devils CANNOT obey God or do His work because they do not have the Spirit of God in them. People who have a head knowledge of Christ as the Messiah, He did live, He did die on the cross are not saved, they are like the devils in this sense. They do not know Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. However, they can do what is stated in John 6:27 and fulfill v 6:29.

 

[Danus]

He made a statement "Dont feel too bad Deb13 it seems many have a new doctrine for each day?
I wonder what kind of doctrine it takes to replace the witness of the Holy Spirit? Glad I dont have to make up my salvation, It lives in me!"

My position is there is but one doctrine, and since him and I apparently don't agree we are under the same doctrine, one of three things are true, 1) he is right. 2) I am right. 3) neither of us are right.

This leads to my post, "The only thing worse than one not being saved, is one not being saved thinking one is."

Note my use of the Adjective "one", that could be "me", "him" or "you"... there is nothing wrong with me quoting him.

Another example how you don't moderate, you manipulate, you abuse the privilege given you.

Lets just start with your first quote, how is it that you believe you are "in him" and who do you believe the "us" is in your quote from Paul?

Or better yet, I will retract my question to you in favor of you answering the question brought by Ernest T. Bass

That's OK. I gave you the scriptures you asked for. Interpret them as you like. It's not going to change.

 

[Deborah13]

I took "Mitspa quote" out, since you said you are not addressing anyone specifically. You don't need to quote him to make that statement.

If you don't believe you are chosen, that's between you and God. The only time I am obligated to interrupt you is when you feel the need to suggest others are not chosen. It's OK if your not and you want to say that. That might be true. I don't know. But, when other explain their salvation, they are not forcing that on you. They are just sharing that.

So that we are clear, you are the one saying your NOT chosen. I never said you are not chosen. If you have faith in Christ Jesus as your savior then you are chosen by God. As for scripture take your pick. There are tons and tons of scripture explaining how we are chosen by God, chosen for salvation. Here are just a few.

Ephesians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

2 Thess. 2:13
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

1 Tim. 5:21,"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality."

2 Tim. 2:10
"For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory."

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Revelation 13:8
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.



The bible explicitly tells us that God is the one in charge. Other verses that speak to God's sovereign work onto man.

Exodus 7:1
And the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

1 John 4:8
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,†for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The scripture clearly states that we are chosen by God.
However, where does it say that others are not?

 

[Danus]

The scripture clearly states that we are chosen by God.
However, where does it say that others are not?

I'll let the others answer that. I don't know, but they say they are not.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

NASB
John 6:27 - " "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." "

Please lets be patient with one another. I do not understand why you are using a scripture where Jesus is talking to unbelievers, to ask a question about the condition of His sheep. Please explain.

Devils CANNOT obey God or do His work because they do not have the Spirit of God in them. People who have a head knowledge of Christ as the Messiah, He did live, He did die on the cross are not saved, they are like the devils in this sense. They do not know Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. However, they can do what is stated in John 6:27 and fulfill v 6:29.

Sorry, it should have been Jn 10:27 where Jesus qualifies His sheep as those that hear and follow Him.


It is in Jn 6:27 Jesus said to work for everlasting life.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Can (1) a Christian lie, steal, murder, fornicate etc and still maintain his salvation or (2) the Christian was not really saved to begin with as evidenced by these sinful actions?