The False Security of Eternal Security

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Can (1) a Christian lie, steal, murder, fornicate etc and still maintain his salvation or (2) the Christian was not really saved to begin with as evidenced by these sinful actions?

It's perhaps more of a question of 'when did you actually stop' sinning?

There is a clause put forth by John the Apostle to measure if someone was 'in truth' or not.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

There is a fairy tale notion within vast amounts of believers who think that they somehow become magically temporarily sinless via various formulas, rituals or incantations.

That is not the case. One does not become magically sinless after belief. Those who even temporarily believe they are sinless do not have an accurate view of sin.

Paul delivered this fact about himself and termed it a law. This is a law that would also be applicable to every believer:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Were salvation hinged on anyone by any means making themselves 'temporarily sinless' in order to achieve salvation you'd have a point.

I don't believe that position is available to any believer in Truth.

Therefore salvation is not and can not be hinged on whether one has sin or not as we 'all' have sin.

Those who believe they somehow by their works or actions make themselves sinless in order to be acceptable to God in Christ are in reality not being truthful with God in Christ to begin with about their current state in relationship to having sin.

Paul admonishes us to not let sin 'reign' in our mortal bodies because it is always factually present to reign. Those who have it reign over them are slaves. Sin can be ruled over, but it is not eradicated from our present flesh, period. It is always there to potentially reign, and is in effect then 'always there.'

Many people think they sin only in external deeds. Sin is factually a progression from thoughts to words to deeds, the deed only being the final and external showing. But Jesus advised us that 'evil' originates from within, in our thoughts and in our hearts. Yes, an evil THOUGHT is in fact a SIN as Jesus showed us in relationship to the thought of adultery in Matt. 5 for example.

If a believers salvation revolved around being in and out with every evil thought they should rightfully be made very dizzy in a short period of time.

The human mind is 'subject' and 'subjected' to temptations of the tempter. This in effect means our minds are not alone. That activity in believers minds is evil and it is demonic.

Divide there, within, and your security will be found along side your internal adversary.

If you don't know your adversary is internal, you are not given to understandings on these matters.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It's perhaps more of a question of 'when did you actually stop' sinning?

There is a clause put forth by John the Apostle to measure if someone was 'in truth' or not.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

There is a fairy tale notion within vast amounts of believers who think that they somehow become magically temporarily sinless via various formulas, rituals or incantations.

That is not the case. One does not become magically sinless after belief. Those who even temporarily believe they are sinless do not have an accurate view of sin.

Paul delivered this fact about himself and termed it a law. This is a law that would also be applicable to every believer:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Were salvation hinged on anyone by any means making themselves 'temporarily sinless' in order to achieve salvation you'd have a point.

I don't believe that position is available to any believer in Truth.

Therefore salvation is not and can not be hinged on whether one has sin or not as we 'all' have sin.

Those who believe they somehow by their works or actions make themselves sinless in order to be acceptable to God in Christ are in reality not being truthful with God in Christ to begin with about their current state in relationship to having sin.

Paul admonishes us to not let sin 'reign' in our mortal bodies because it is always factually present to reign. Those who have it reign over them are slaves. Sin can be ruled over, but it is not eradicated from our present flesh, period. It is always there to potentially reign, and is in effect then 'always there.'

Many people think they sin only in external deeds. Sin is factually a progression from thoughts to words to deeds, the deed only being the final and external showing. But Jesus advised us that 'evil' originates from within, in our thoughts and in our hearts. Yes, an evil THOUGHT is in fact a SIN as Jesus showed us in relationship to the thought of adultery in Matt. 5 for example.

If a believers salvation revolved around being in and out with every evil thought they should rightfully be made very dizzy in a short period of time.

The human mind is 'subject' and 'subjected' to temptations of the tempter. This in effect means our minds are not alone. That activity in believers minds is evil and it is demonic.

Divide there, within, and your security will be found along side your internal adversary.

If you don't know your adversary is internal, you are not given to understandings on these matters.

s

No, the question I asked was corect. Can a Christian commit sins, such as the prodigal son who spent his money on harlots or other sins Paul lists in 1 Cor 6:9,10 can a Christian commit such sins and still be saved while living in those sins?

 

[smaller]

No, the question I asked was right. Can a Christian commit sins, such as the prodigal son and spent his money on harlots, can a Christian spend his money on prostitutes and still be saved.

You missed the point entirely and seek to view sins as an external matter.

Your judgment of sins is a shallow, surface and carnal view of same.

That is why you won't 'get it.'

Believers have sinned, HAVE sin and will sin.

Have is a present tense condition.

Paul had evil present with him. You and I are not one bit different.

None of us eradicate that fact. That is why we can not say we 'have' no sin.

It is a present tense application. If you believe you are temporarily sinless, you are in fact not in truth.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You missed the point entirely and seek to view sins as an external matter.

Your judgment of sins is a shallow, surface and carnal view of same.

That is why you won't 'get it.'

Believers have sinned, HAVE sin and will sin.

Have is a present tense condition.

Paul had evil present with him. You and I are not one bit different.

None of us eradicate that fact. That is why we can not say we 'have' no sin.

It is a present tense application. If you believe you are temporarily sinless, you are in fact not in truth.

s

1 Cor 6:9-11 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you:..."


Paul said the the Chrsitians at Corinth that "such were some of you". Could those Christians at Corinth go back to doing these unrighteous acts they once did and still maintain their salvation?

Also, when Paul listed these unrighteous sins, he said "such were some of you".

Since unrighteous is how those at Corinth once were does that means when they became righteous Christians they would never sin anymore since they were once unrighteous but now righteous? No. For there is a differecne between a Christian who occasionally stumbles and sins but repents of that sin and a Christian who goes back to living in sin, making that sinning a life-stye as Peter said he goes back to wallowing in the mire. A Christian that occasionally sins but repents has not gone back to wallowing in the mire, he has not made sinning his life style.

Paul said of the Ephesians in Eph 2:2,3 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;"

Back before the Ephesians became Christians they "walked" according to the course of this world. Their "conversation" or their way of life was to live in the lusts of the flesh. When those Ephesians became Christians did they become perfectly sinless? No, they still would sin but as long as they repented those sins would be forgiven.

Again, there is a difference between the Christian who occasionally stumbles and sins but repents to the Christian who is gone back to walking and living in sin and not repenting.


So can the Christan go back to walking in sin, living in sin, wallowing in the mire where sinning and impententance is a way of life and yet still maintain salvation?

 

[smaller]

1 Cor 6:9-11 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you:..."

Paul said the the Chrsitians at Corinth that "such were some of you". Could those Christians at Corinth go back to doing these unrighteous acts they once did and still maintain their salvation?

Regardless of Paul's 'external actions' evil was still present with him. In your judgment that evil present is only present when you see 'an external action.' That is not the case.

Do the math.

Also, when Paul listed these unrighteous sins, he said "such were some of you".

Since unrighteous is how those at Corinth once were does that means when they became righteous Christians they would never sin anymore since they were once unrighteous but now righteous? No. For there is a differecne between a Christian who occasionally stumbles and sins but repents of that sin and a Christian who goes back to living in sin, making that sin a life-stye as Peter said he goes back to wallowing in the mire. A Chrsitian that occasionally sins but repents has not gone back to wallowing in the mire, he had not made sinning his life style.

Again, judgment external is pointless. So what if any believer keeps their evil present 'in check?' It's STILL THERE and present.

Paul said of the Ephesians in Eph 2:2,3 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;"

Back before the Ephesians became Christians they "walked" according to the course of this world. Their "conversation" or their way of life was to live in the lusts of the flesh. When those Ephesians became Christians did they become perfectly sinless? No, they still would sin but as long as they repented those sins would be forgiven.

The condition of 'evil present' does not go away. If you say that when you put on a good show on the outside you did your sinless duty that would only be an external judgment. Pharisees made the same mistake. Put on a really good show, fancy robes, prayer on the streets, best seats in the house. Doesn't matter.

Evil present is and remains an internal matter.

Again, there is a difference between the Christian who occasionally stumbles and sins but repents to the Christian who is gone back to walking and living in sin and not repenting.

So can the Christan go back to walking in sin, living in sin, wallowing in the mire where sinning and impententance is a way of life and yet still maintain salvation?

To reign over evil present is all you are talking about. Still doesn't change the fact of sin/evil being present to reign if not kept in check.

s

 

[Danus]

Can (1) a Christian lie, steal, murder, fornicate etc and still maintain his salvation or (2) the Christian was not really saved to begin with as evidenced by these sinful actions?

A Christian will continue to sin, but not willfully.Everyone is a sinner, saved or not, but the saved have repented of their sin, and turn to Christ as the only sinless one who can represent them.

Some see sin as something we either do or don't do, but that's not the full biblical definition. That's not the fullness of what sin is. If it was then we could save ourselves by simply not sinning, and if that's the case there is no need for Christ. If Christ is not the one representing you, by grace to you, in faith to him, then you are representing yourself. If you are representing yourself then the requirement is that you be 100% righteous. God will accept that if one can do it, but no one can.

The whole point of Christ was to fulfill for man what man can not; the law. The law was given to show man his sinfulness in it's full measure. The whole point of faith is not simply believing that Christ died for you, or that God exist, it's that Christ did something you can't, that He paid a price only He can, and that He is doing something in you that you your self can not do on your own.

Anyone can simply believe in something. Many people believe in all sorts of things. R Kelly believes he can fly; he wrote a song about it, but I bet you won't be able to get him to jump off a building. Why? because he does not really have faith in what he says he believes in his song.

Being saved, and living the Christian life is yielding ones own will for themselves, to God's will for them. When we do that, we begin to see the world through Gods eyes, with God's heart, not our own. As that relationship builds and grows, we are transformed more and more to the image of Christ, by God; by God's will for us, ever yielding to his will in faith, and we turn more and more from our sin to the point where we are literally slaves to his righteousness. That still does not mean we are not sinners, but it means we are not willful sinners; we do not love sin, or embrace sin; we are not wicked as those who do embrace their own sin.

When we meet Christ face to face, then we will be perfected.

 

[Danus]

Reminder to all users to be respectful regarding the beliefs of others and in defending beliefs being discussed in this section. DO NOT SPECULATE on the salvation of others based on their beliefs.

You may discuss and defend your beliefs and Salvation
You may discuss and defend the subject of Salvation
You may discuss the beliefs others have in relation to salvation, but we are not going to say that others who believe "X" are not saved.

Any post like that will be considered disrespectful and deleted. If it continues the thread will be locked. Those calling themselves Christians on this thread are the body of Christ and while there may be different understandings, no one has a right to openly judge the salvation of another on this form. That is not a public issue, that is between each individual and God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Regardless of Paul's 'external actions' evil was still present with him. In your judgment that evil present is only present when you see 'an external action.' That is not the case.

Do the math.



Again, judgment external is pointless. So what if any believer keeps their evil present 'in check?' It's STILL THERE and present.



The condition of 'evil present' does not go away. If you say that when you put on a good show on the outside you did your sinless duty that would only be an external judgment. Pharisees made the same mistake. Put on a really good show, fancy robes, prayer on the streets, best seats in the house. Doesn't matter.

Evil present is and remains an internal matter.



To reign over evil present is all you are talking about. Still doesn't change the fact of sin/evil being present to reign if not kept in check.

s

Paul as others have a tendency within to choose to sin, that is always present. A Christian can occasionally stumble and repent and maintain his saved position as long as he continues to 'walk in the light', 1 Jn 1:7.

But what I am talking about is one who quits living a life of sin and became a Christian but then went back to that life of sin, he quit walking in the light. Can that person maintain his salvation? Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living an impentent life-style in fornication? I have worked in lending and collecting industry for many years. A peson says that have eternal security therefore if they do not pay their bills they cannot be lost, that is, they can steal from creditors and still maintain their salvation. Would you agree with them?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

A Christian will continue to sin, but not willfully.Everyone is a sinner, saved or not, but the saved have repented of their sin, and turn to Christ as the only sinless one who can represent them.


Some see sin as something we either do or don't do, but that's not the full biblical definition. That's not the fullness of what sin is. If it was then we could save ourselves by simply not sinning, and if that's the case there is no need for Christ. If Christ is not the one representing you, by grace to you, in faith to him, then you are representing yourself. If you are representing yourself then the requirement is that you be 100% righteous. God will accept that if one can do it, but no one can.




The whole point of Christ was to fulfill for man what man can not; the law. The law was given to show man his sinfulness in it's full measure. The whole point of faith is not simply believing that Christ died for you, or that God exist, it's that Christ did something you can't, that He paid a price only He can, and that He is doing something in you that you your self can not do on your own.

Anyone can simply believe in something. Many people believe in all sorts of things. R Kelly believes he can fly; he wrote a song about it, but I bet you won't be able to get him to jump off a building. Why? because he does not really have faith in what he says he believes in his song.

Being saved, and living the Christian life is yielding ones own will for themselves, to God's will for them. When we do that, we begin to see the world through Gods eyes, with God's heart, not our own. As that relationship builds and grows, we are transformed more and more to the image of Christ, by God; by God's will for us, ever yielding to his will in faith, and we turn more and more from our sin to the point where we are literally slaves to his righteousness. That still does not mean we are not sinners, but it means we are not willful sinners; we do not love sin, or embrace sin; we are not wicked as those who do embrace their own sin.

When we meet Christ face to face, then we will be perfected.

Sinning is a willful choice. It was a willful choice of the prodigal to spend his inheritance on harlots. Can a Chrsitian choose to live impentently in fornicaton and still maintain his salvation? Can he willfully choose to impentently steal and maintain his salvation?


Eph 1:4 , 2 Pet 3:14 , Mt 5:48 the Christian is to be holy, spotless, blameless, perfect in this life. It takes obedience to God's will to be holy spotless, blameless and perfect.

 

[smaller]

Paul as others have a tendency within to choose to sin, that is always present.

Try as we might we can not choose our way past the fact that 'all' of us are subject to 'internal evil.' This fact is not a matter of choice.

We can try any form of pseudo happy thoughts Gospels 'we choose to engage in' and sooner or later our mind and heart will have multiple confrontations with evil in our own hearts regardless.

BUt what I am talking about is one who quits living a life of sin and became a Chrsitian but then went back to that life of sin.

The exercise in resisting that internal evil force by faith is beneficial in the long run. Nevertheless if one does not understand the fact of that evil fulcrum they will remain with an inaccurate picture of themselves and their 'evil present.'

Paul never escaped the fact of evil present with him. It is a law that is attached to all save God Himself in the flesh.

Can that person maintain his salvation?

Gave an example earlier. One can certainly appear legal and obedient on the outside and have a raging lion of evil within their heart regardless of any external appearances.

Just stepping on to the ground of faith is a guarantee of an internal battle.

Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living a life-style in fornication?

Again and again we can do the drill. The evil within our hearts remains a progression that originates in 'thought.' From there it extends to words and from there to deeds. None of us ever escape the first progression. When that working extends to the external deeds of evil we can then see a 'full blown slave' of the devil. This by no means equates to us being taken of out of our internal battles, period. That battle remains within all of us regardless of any religious cloaking devices.

When any of us factually come before God in Christ or even each other an honest heart comes forth carrying this fact:

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Any believer, 'internally' stands perpetually divided from that evil conscience even while knowing we perpetually 'have it.' Active or inactive is immaterial to the fact of having that evil conscience.

Any believer who comes before God only painted in the rosy scenarios that many doctrines paint does not stand before God honestly.

Here is the man justified in Gods Eyes:

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In effect acknowledging our condition before God and each others is a basic TEST OF HONESTY, to see 'if it exists' within us.

No 'internal' liar will stand in Gods Eyes nor will they be blessed with spiritual understandings.

God does not and will never bless the evil thoughts and intentions within any of us on any scale. What does or at least is supposed to 'differentiate' a believer is that we are honest before both God in Christ and each others about the fact of it.

I have worked in lending and collecting industry for many years. A peson says that have eternal security so if they do not pay their bills they cannot be lost, that is, they can steal from creditors and still maintain their salvation. Would you agree with them?

I would only agree with the above analogy on this scale spiritually. That bankruptcy is the only option standing before God in Christ and but not always so when standing before 'bill collectors.' fwiw I have had much exposure to the same business from the same end you appear to have worked in. and also fwiw I have spotless and perfect credit. On the 'worldly side' only by the PURE GRACE of God in Christ because it could have just as easily went the other way for me. I have climbed mountains that I thought as a believer were totally impossible and they were climbed by Pure Grace. And when one mountain of this world ills was traversed, another far higher and mightier appeared to again text the validity of PURE GRACE because I gave up every single time from my 'worldly view.' I would have never believed those traversings EVER possible at the foot of those mountains just as I stand before some right now, in utter unbelief of and in my own power.

The devil will force us to pay our last farthing.

We all come before our Eternal Judge FACTUALLY BANKRUPT in order to receive because that IS how we all are currently.

That is what Grace IS. Pure undeserving unmerited favor from Above.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Try as we might we can not choose our way past the fact that 'all' of us are subject to 'internal evil.' This fact is not a matter of choice.

We can try any form of pseudo happy thoughts Gospels 'we choose to engage in' and sooner or later our mind and heart will have multiple confrontations with evil in our own hearts regardless.



The exercise in resisting that internal evil force by faith is beneficial in the long run. Nevertheless if one does not understand the fact of that evil fulcrum they will remain with an inaccurate picture of themselves and their 'evil present.'

Paul never escaped the fact of evil present with him. It is a law that is attached to all save God Himself in the flesh.



Gave an example earlier. One can certainly appear legal and obedient on the outside and have a raging lion of evil within their heart regardless of any external appearances.

Just stepping on to the ground of faith is a guarantee of an internal battle.



Again and again we can do the drill. The evil within our hearts remains a progression that originates in 'thought.' From there it extends to words and from there to deeds. None of us ever escape the first progression. When that working extends to the external deeds of evil we can then see a 'full blown slave' of the devil. This by no means equates to us being taken of out of our internal battles, period. That battle remains within all of us regardless of any religious cloaking devices.

When any of us factually come before God in Christ or even each other an honest heart comes forth carrying this fact:

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Any believer, internally' stands perpetually divided from that evil conscience even while knowing we perpetually 'have it.' Active or inactive is immaterial to the fact of having that evil conscience.

And believer who comes before God only painted in the rosy scenarios that many doctrines paint does not stand before God honestly.

Here is the man justified in Gods Eyes:

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


In effect acknowledging our condition before God and each others is a basic TEST OF HONESTY, to see 'if it exists' within us.


No liar will stand in Gods Eyes nor will they be blessed with spiritual understandings.


God does not and will never bless the evil thoughts and intentions within any of us on any scale. What does or at least is supposed to 'differentiate' a believer is that we are honest before both God in Christ and each others about the fact of it.


I would only agree with the above analogy on this scale spiritually. That bankruptcy is the only option standing before God in Christ and but not always so when standing before 'bill collectors.' fwiw I have had much exposure to the same business from the same end you appear to have worked in. and also fwiw I have spotless and perfect credit. On the 'worldly side' only by the PURE GRACE of God in Christ because it could have just as easily went the other way for me. I have climbed mountains that I were impossible and they were climbed by Pure Grace. And when one mountain of this world was traversed, another far higher and mightier appeared to again text the validity of PURE GRACE because I gave up every single time from my 'worldly view.' I would have never believed those traversings EVER possible at the foot of those mountains just as I stand before some right now, in utter unbelief of and in my own power.

The devil will force us to pay our last farthing.

We all come before our Eternal Judge FACTUALLY BANKRUPT in order to receive because that IS how we all are currently.

That is what Grace IS. Pure undeserving unmerited favor from Above.

enjoy!

smaller

How about just a simple "yes' or "no" to these questions.


Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living an impentent life-style in fornication?


I have worked in lending and collecting industry for many years. A peson says that have eternal security so if they do not pay their bills they cannot be lost, that is, they can steal from creditors and still maintain their salvation. Would you agree with them?

 

[smaller]

How about just a simple "yes' or "no" to these questions.

I see that you have difficulty grasping the fact of evil present with you and only seek to judge the outside of the cup of other people inclusive of yourself.

In this way God in Christ has revealed you to me.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I see that you have difficulty grasping the fact of evil present with you and only seek to judge the outside of the cup of other people inclusive of yourself.

In this way God in Christ has revealed you to me.

s

Why such difficulty in giving a simple 'yes'' or 'no' answer?

I'll ask again:

Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living an impentent life-style in fornication?


I have worked in lending and collecting industry for many years. A peson says that have eternal security so if they do not pay their bills they cannot be lost, that is, they can steal from creditors and still maintain their salvation. Would you agree with them?

 

[heymikey80]

Can (1) a Christian lie, steal, murder, fornicate etc and still maintain his salvation or (2) the Christian was not really saved to begin with as evidenced by these sinful actions?

Matthew 5 indicates that the bar for sin is much easier to cross than acting on a sinful thought. Sinful thoughts are sin.

In Romans 7:23-8:1 Paul himself states that sin continues in his life -- a life of no condemnation.

I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I'm not interested in contradicting Paul. The issue is not the sin, the issue is the Spirit of God Who raised Christ from the dead. What the Spirit of God allows in a person dictates whether that person is saved. Paul says his flesh continues to serve the law of sin, but the Spirit of God allows it.

So it's not what someone can do. It's what the Spirit allows. And clearly to Paul, the Spirit of God allows sin.

 

[smaller]

Matthew 5 indicates that the bar for sin is much easier to cross than acting on a sinful thought. Sinful thoughts are sin.

In Romans 7:23-8:1 Paul himself states that sin continues in his life -- a life of no condemnation.

I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I'm not interested in contradicting Paul. The issue is not the sin, the issue is the Spirit of God Who raised Christ from the dead. What the Spirit of God allows in a person dictates whether that person is saved. Paul says his flesh continues to serve the law of sin, but the Spirit of God allows it.

So it's not what someone can do. It's what the Spirit allows. And clearly to Paul, the Spirit of God allows sin.

I see at least one in this thread has grasped a basic of the Gospel.

You've obviously been paying attention as opposed to ETB.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Matthew 5 indicates that the bar for sin is much easier to cross than acting on a sinful thought. Sinful thoughts are sin.

In Romans 7:23-8:1 Paul himself states that sin continues in his life -- a life of no condemnation.

I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I'm not interested in contradicting Paul. The issue is not the sin, the issue is the Spirit of God Who raised Christ from the dead. What the Spirit of God allows in a person dictates whether that person is saved. Paul says his flesh continues to serve the law of sin, but the Spirit of God allows it.

So it's not what someone can do. It's what the Spirit allows. And clearly to Paul, the Spirit of God allows sin.

Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living an impentent life-style in fornication?


I have worked in lending and collecting industry for many years. A peson says that have eternal security so if they do not pay their bills they cannot be lost, that is, they can steal from creditors and still maintain their salvation. Would you agree with them?


Those that believe in eternal security should be answering with a resounding "Yes" to these two questions but I am having a difficult time getting a strait 'yes' or 'no' answer.


What Paul is saying has nothing to do with what I am asking. Paul is simply saying he always had within him the capability to choose to sin, he also always had within the capability to choose to do righteousness. My question is could Paul go back to being Saul where he would be impentently committing sins against God, persecuting the church, etc and still maintain his salvation?

 

[rrowell]

I see at least one in this thread has grasped a basic of the Gospel.

You've obviously been paying attention as opposed to ETB.

s

I have been viewing, but the only Gospel I see to be truth is coming from E,
You refuse to answer his question?

Why not just answer his question instead of insulting E?

He asked a simple "yes" or "no" on topic question of which I too would like to hear the answer.

 

[smaller]

I have been viewing, but the only Gospel I see to be truth is coming from E,
You refuse to answer his question?

Answered in detail multiple times. If you understood you'd see it.

Why not just answer his question instead of insulting E?

I have a strong disinterest in extensive dialog with 'believers' who can not come to grips with the simplicity of evil being an internal matter of mind and heart, who 'exempt' themselves from that being a fact and who only want to judge by wearing fancy religious robes on the outside covering up the obvious issue in discussion.

Simple enough?

There is no position within Christian theology that I have not personally sat down, reckoned with, understood and communicated on a factual basis. If and when I meet others who do likewise the conversations start leaning to the beneficial side and the false spins of 'insults' go away because that is not true.

Simple enough?

He asked a simple "yes" or "no" on topic question of which I too would like to hear the answer.

That issue was specificially addressed multiple times. But you see he has an ingrained doctrinal position erected in his own mind that he can't hurdle and perhaps you can't either since neither of you even grasped the response.

It's there and you can't even see it.

enjoy!

s

 

[BornAgain]

Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living an impentent life-style in fornication?

The answer is no. When you are living in sin there is no salvation unless you turn and repent (have a change of heart and mind). He had sinned and did not make an apology for his sin, but fully confessed his sins to his father. (his earthly father). He would blame no one for his sin.

 

[Cassian]

Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living an impentent life-style in fornication?


I have worked in lending and collecting industry for many years. A peson says that have eternal security so if they do not pay their bills they cannot be lost, that is, they can steal from creditors and still maintain their salvation. Would you agree with them?


Those that believe in eternal security should be answering with a resounding "Yes" to these two questions but I am having a difficult time getting a strait 'yes' or 'no' answer.


What Paul is saying has nothing to do with what I am asking. Paul is simply saying he always had within him the capability to choose to sin, he also always had within the capability to choose to do righteousness. My question is could Paul go back to being Saul where he would be impentently committing sins against God, persecuting the church, etc and still maintain his salvation?

the simple answer and scripturally is absolutely no. But when those who have contradictory interpretations of scripture need to develop end-arounds so that it seemingly aligns with their interpretation. It like two wrongs will always make a right.