The False Security of Eternal Security

[Danus]

Sinning is a willful choice.

is it? If it is, then you don't need Christ to save you. Just choose to be 100% sinless like Him & save yourself since you are representing yourself.

 

[Cassian]

is it? If it is, then you don't need Christ to save you. Just choose to be 100% sinless like Him & save yourself since you are representing yourself.

But Christ did not save us from sin. He atoned for sin. That does not mean eradicate sin.

Christ did not save your soul upon the Cross either. There was a purpose to God creating man and then God recreating man through Christ's Incarnation, death and resurrection.

the relationship we choose to be in with God in answer to His call to come, is a mutual obligatory commitment. Since Christ did keep the law, He becomes our model and example. It is why He has commanded us to be perfect as He is perfect. That perfection comes through a mutual working out between each believer and the Holy Spirit. We surely can refrain from sin, we surely can curb bad habits. We are instructed to foster the virtues in order to overcome the vices or passions.

that is precisely why salvation is not guaranteed because man is on a journey toward the goal. We may not ever attain perfection, but that surely should not keep us from trying to achieve with the help of the Holy Spirit. Giving up on that work is how we can lose faith. If we lose faith, we lose salvation.

That phrase only works if you believe that one is saved by and through faith. If you think you are finitely saved by Christ from the Cross, or by some other unilateral power then maybe you can develop a notion of security since it is all about God and man cannot contribute to the salvation of his soul.

If it is all God, then every soul should also be saved since God desires that all men be saved. If so, we are all just whistling dixie, since it matters not what we do, what we think, what we say, it is all theater and everyone will be saved.

Eternal security has always been a false teaching of scripture. It is held only by those who do hold to a unilateral saving by God, namely the reformed view under the doctrine of predestination. God chose certain men or didn't choose certain men to be saved. All the rest is just theater as only those God eternally selected will be saved.

 

[heymikey80]

Could the prodigal maintain his salvation while living an impentent life-style in fornication?

You said the word, "impenitent". How can you state "relying on impenitently"? It doesn't wash. You'll have to refine your question to one that is consistent with the existence of faith -- a humble, submitted reliance on God.

You think about how the Spirit of God changes people -- real people in the world -- and then we can discuss how real people in the real world could possible lose track of the Spirit of God keeping track of them. How do they hide? How do they escape? How do they avoid what God is doing in them? Can they escape to the depths of the sea? Can they climb to the highest mountain? Is God not there?

I have worked in lending and collecting industry for many years. A peson says that have eternal security so if they do not pay their bills they cannot be lost, that is, they can steal from creditors and still maintain their salvation. Would you agree with them?

What are you talking about? Are you talking about having a security in the lending industry? Or are you talking about someone who is (acting like our government) borrowing 'til they can't pay back, and then discussing their salvation?

If the latter -- they are changed by God, they don't change God.

Those that believe in eternal security should be answering with a resounding "Yes" to these two questions but I am having a difficult time getting a strait 'yes' or 'no' answer.

The inconsistency of the question leads most people to ask whether the question is itself a meaningless paradox of items.

We see that God changes people, people don't change God. And so the question is whether the Spirit of God is dwelling inside those completely impenitent. He has declared Himself that He is not. Now God has also said and shown that His people continue to repent of sins. So between the time they first repented, to the time they next repented -- it is quite clear that they are also God's children -- even though they hadn't repented yet of the second sin. Project this forward, and you'll see what everyone else sees about repentance and being Christian.

On the other hand, the question of people not recognizing financial issues as being sinful, people who have not the first idea that loans aren't gifts; that payments must be made on schedule; people who don't "have a clue" as the saying goes -- it is quite shallow to assert that none of these people trust in God, that God doesn't live in debtors unable to pay. It's just a shallow works-righteousness view that would assert that God doesn't dwell with the poor and debtors.

What Paul is saying has nothing to do with what I am asking. Paul is simply saying he always had within him the capability to choose to sin, he also always had within the capability to choose to do righteousness. My question is could Paul go back to being Saul where he would be impentently committing sins against God, persecuting the church, etc and still maintain his salvation?

And my challenge is: could the Spirit of God in Paul have so little power as to be defeated by sin? Does the Spirit of God quit working in people? Under what conditions does the Spirit of God kill lives He brings to birth in Christ?

 

[Danus]

But Christ did not save us from sin. He atoned for sin. That does not mean eradicate sin.

Christ did not save your soul upon the Cross either. There was a purpose to God creating man and then God recreating man through Christ's Incarnation, death and resurrection.

the relationship we choose to be in with God in answer to His call to come, is a mutual obligatory commitment. Since Christ did keep the law, He becomes our model and example. It is why He has commanded us to be perfect as He is perfect. That perfection comes through a mutual working out between each believer and the Holy Spirit. We surely can refrain from sin, we surely can curb bad habits. We are instructed to foster the virtues in order to overcome the vices or passions.

that is precisely why salvation is not guaranteed because man is on a journey toward the goal. We may not ever attain perfection, but that surely should not keep us from trying to achieve with the help of the Holy Spirit. Giving up on that work is how we can lose faith. If we lose faith, we lose salvation.

That phrase only works if you believe that one is saved by and through faith. If you think you are finitely saved by Christ from the Cross, or by some other unilateral power then maybe you can develop a notion of security since it is all about God and man cannot contribute to the salvation of his soul.

If it is all God, then every soul should also be saved since God desires that all men be saved. If so, we are all just whistling dixie, since it matters not what we do, what we think, what we say, it is all theater and everyone will be saved.

Eternal security has always been a false teaching of scripture.

Well the fact remains that biblicaly, not all are saved. However I'm not the one saying Christ saved us from sinning, or eradicated sin.

Your theology makes perfect sense when you ignore all the verses in the bible that describe mankind as utterly sinful, and that God chooses unconditionally to save whom he pleases, and that the saved are predestined. The bible lays out Gods promise and the security of salvation. It also clear says you will be perfected when we meet Christ face to face. Paul points this out also in 1 Corinthians 13:12 (NIV) 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Your theology of salvation is not good news at all. It says we might be saved, or we might not and we can't know. But the bible clear;y says we can and do and that it is totally secure, for those who are in fact saved.

I can use just one gospel to point this out. I could use any of them, but I'll only burden you with one. John. I'll even use the KJV.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”


John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”


John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

You don't have to take my word for it. If you can't believe Christ, then who can you believe?

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

Well the fact remains that biblicaly, not all are saved. However I'm not the one saying Christ saved us from sinning, or eradicated sin.

YOu are correct. NOt all are saved which immediately sinks your theory. It is not then ONLY of God. Man does have a role to play in the salvation of his soul. It is a mutual relationship and man is the weak link. It is man that can fail. It is man that does not endure to the end. He quenches the Spirit and goes his own way.

Your theology makes perfect sense when you ignore all the verses in the bible that describe mankind as utterly sinful, and that God chooses unconditionally to save whom he pleases, and that the saved are predestined. The bible lays out Gods promise and the security of salvation. It also clear says you will be perfected when we meet Christ face to face. Paul points this out also in 1 Corinthians 13:12 (NIV) 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Ignoring them is different that knowing that they never meant what you say they mean.

Your whole theological premise is based on Calvin's doctrine of predestination. A doctrine that never existed prior to Calvin. At that it is only one that sola scripturists have developed from scripture. There is no text in all of scripture that says God chose any to salvation of their souls. He did choose to show mercy to every human being and saved them from death, the condemnation through Adam.

Your theology of salvation is not good news at all. It says we might be saved, or we might not and we can't know. But the bible clear;y says we can and do and that it is totally secure, for those who are in fact saved.

We can know for ourselves which is called assurance. But there is no such thing as a guarnatee that one is saved by come decree of God as to his soul. It is a working out in a personal relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Man is the fulcrum, his will actually, that will determine if he spends eternity in heaven or hell. God does not decide, he only pronounces the judgement or decision that man made.

But the bible clear;y says we can and do and that it is totally secure, for those who are in fact saved.

there is no text that says so. No one's soul is in fact saved finitely in this earthly existance. We take possession of that salvation upon entering into Christ at baptism, but that is no guarantee we shall endure to claim the prize at the end.

It all depends on our faith. We are being saved through our faith, It is always in the present, and active. It cannot ever stop, if it does, we are no longer being saved.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.â€

NOtice the verb, believeth is present tense, active. It is not past tense, nor even future tense. It is always present and active.

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.â€

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.â€
John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.â€
John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.â€
John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.â€
John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.â€
John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.â€
John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.â€

repeating them does not add support. The fact, none of them are in the past tense. The verbs are all present tense and active.

Or in the case of JOhn 10:27 is all depends on we following. obviously man can change his mind and does. Man can stop following, stop loving, stop being obedient, thus lose faith, thus lose salvation. I know this is your interpretation, but you cannot find this theory prior to Calvin and even then he did not use the terminology as such. That was left for others to further define, or more clearly define what he meant. It is wholly a modern theory, a man made theory.

John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.â€

I don't know why you think that lifting a text out of context and then applying your premise to it would help you. This text the Context is Christ's High Priestly prayer where he is ONLY praying for the disciples. By the way the group, the disciples is one of three groups elected for some service, but not a single person to salvation.

John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?â€
You don't have to take my word for it. If you can't believe Christ, then who can you believe?

I'm glad you believe, but the verb is present tense again. To actually state what you want it to state it must be in the past tense.

ONe is saved having believed. Then it matters not that you change your mind, or lose faith, the fact that you beleived at any moment in your life guarantees that you will ihherit the promise at the end. But I find nothing is scripture that says this.

 

[Deborah13]

It's perhaps more of a question of 'when did you actually stop' sinning?

There is a clause put forth by John the Apostle to measure if someone was 'in truth' or not.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

There is a fairy tale notion within vast amounts of believers who think that they somehow become magically temporarily sinless via various formulas, rituals or incantations.

That is not the case. One does not become magically sinless after belief. Those who even temporarily believe they are sinless do not have an accurate view of sin.

Paul delivered this fact about himself and termed it a law. This is a law that would also be applicable to every believer:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Were salvation hinged on anyone by any means making themselves 'temporarily sinless' in order to achieve salvation you'd have a point.

I don't believe that position is available to any believer in Truth.

Therefore salvation is not and can not be hinged on whether one has sin or not as we 'all' have sin.

Those who believe they somehow by their works or actions make themselves sinless in order to be acceptable to God in Christ are in reality not being truthful with God in Christ to begin with about their current state in relationship to having sin.

Paul admonishes us to not let sin 'reign' in our mortal bodies because it is always factually present to reign. Those who have it reign over them are slaves. Sin can be ruled over, but it is not eradicated from our present flesh, period. It is always there to potentially reign, and is in effect then 'always there.'

Many people think they sin only in external deeds. Sin is factually a progression from thoughts to words to deeds, the deed only being the final and external showing. But Jesus advised us that 'evil' originates from within, in our thoughts and in our hearts. Yes, an evil THOUGHT is in fact a SIN as Jesus showed us in relationship to the thought of adultery in Matt. 5 for example.

If a believers salvation revolved around being in and out with every evil thought they should rightfully be made very dizzy in a short period of time.

The human mind is 'subject' and 'subjected' to temptations of the tempter. This in effect means our minds are not alone. That activity in believers minds is evil and it is demonic.

Divide there, within, and your security will be found along side your internal adversary.

If you don't know your adversary is internal, you are not given to understandings on these matters.

s

Well, I'll tell you right now dear brother smaller I just sinned, I felt like giving you to old whatfor. I don't know how we could have gotten so far into it the other night that you would call me a liar.
I completely agree with what you stated in this post and have always believed this.

 

[Deborah13]

But Christ did not save us from sin. He atoned for sin. That does not mean eradicate sin.

Christ did not save your soul upon the Cross either. There was a purpose to God creating man and then God recreating man through Christ's Incarnation, death and resurrection.

the relationship we choose to be in with God in answer to His call to come, is a mutual obligatory commitment. Since Christ did keep the law, He becomes our model and example. It is why He has commanded us to be perfect as He is perfect. That perfection comes through a mutual working out between each believer and the Holy Spirit. We surely can refrain from sin, we surely can curb bad habits. We are instructed to foster the virtues in order to overcome the vices or passions.

that is precisely why salvation is not guaranteed because man is on a journey toward the goal. We may not ever attain perfection, but that surely should not keep us from trying to achieve with the help of the Holy Spirit. Giving up on that work is how we can lose faith. If we lose faith, we lose salvation.

That phrase only works if you believe that one is saved by and through faith. If you think you are finitely saved by Christ from the Cross, or by some other unilateral power then maybe you can develop a notion of security since it is all about God and man cannot contribute to the salvation of his soul.

If it is all God, then every soul should also be saved since God desires that all men be saved. If so, we are all just whistling dixie, since it matters not what we do, what we think, what we say, it is all theater and everyone will be saved.

Eternal security has always been a false teaching of scripture. It is held only by those who do hold to a unilateral saving by God, namely the reformed view under the doctrine of predestination. God chose certain men or didn't choose certain men to be saved. All the rest is just theater as only those God eternally selected will be saved.

Many baptist believe OSAS and they do NOT believe the doctrine of predestination.

 

[Danus]

Danus,



YOu are correct. NOt all are saved which immediately sinks your theory. It is not then ONLY of God. Man does have a role to play in the salvation of his soul. It is a mutual relationship and man is the weak link. It is man that can fail. It is man that does not endure to the end. He quenches the Spirit and goes his own way.



Ignoring them is different that knowing that they never meant what you say they mean.

Your whole theological premise is based on Calvin's doctrine of predestination. A doctrine that never existed prior to Calvin. At that it is only one that sola scripturists have developed from scripture. There is no text in all of scripture that says God chose any to salvation of their souls. He did choose to show mercy to every human being and saved them from death, the condemnation through Adam.



We can know for ourselves which is called assurance. But there is no such thing as a guarnatee that one is saved by come decree of God as to his soul. It is a working out in a personal relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Man is the fulcrum, his will actually, that will determine if he spends eternity in heaven or hell. God does not decide, he only pronounces the judgement or decision that man made.



there is no text that says so. No one's soul is in fact saved finitely in this earthly existance. We take possession of that salvation upon entering into Christ at baptism, but that is no guarantee we shall endure to claim the prize at the end.

It all depends on our faith. We are being saved through our faith, It is always in the present, and active. It cannot ever stop, if it does, we are no longer being saved.



NOtice the verb, believeth is present tense, active. It is not past tense, nor even future tense. It is always present and active.



repeating them does not add support. The fact, none of them are in the past tense. The verbs are all present tense and active.

Or in the case of JOhn 10:27 is all depends on we following. obviously man can change his mind and does. Man can stop following, stop loving, stop being obedient, thus lose faith, thus lose salvation. I know this is your interpretation, but you cannot find this theory prior to Calvin and even then he did not use the terminology as such. That was left for others to further define, or more clearly define what he meant. It is wholly a modern theory, a man made theory.


I don't know why you think that lifting a text out of context and then applying your premise to it would help you. This text the Context is Christ's High Priestly prayer where he is ONLY praying for the disciples. By the way the group, the disciples is one of three groups elected for some service, but not a single person to salvation.



I'm glad you believe, but the verb is present tense again. To actually state what you want it to state it must be in the past tense.

ONe is saved having believed. Then it matters not that you change your mind, or lose faith, the fact that you beleived at any moment in your life guarantees that you will ihherit the promise at the end. But I find nothing is scripture that says this.

My attempt to answer you was so long I had a start another thread. In any case, I realize you do not know you are saved. You have made you point well, that you do not know and you can't know. I understand. Maybe someday you will.

For me I believe in God's word and promise. I am hoping to point it out for you and others, but ultimately that all I can do.

Happy possible salvation to you, and hope you make it.

 

[Cassian]

Many baptist believe OSAS and they do NOT believe the doctrine of predestination.

The doctrine of predestination has been mutated considerably.

However, that does not make OSAS a scriptural doctrine. It is premised on that a person only needs to believe, a one-time decision, and once he believes, he cannot change or lose the state of salvation no matter what he does. It is guaranteed by God. Nothing in scripture supports such a notion. As is usually the case with prooftexts, they seemingly support a premise, but the premise ignores most of scripture's context to do so.

The very acronym is quite modern through the theology it refers to has only a couple of hundred years of existance and then by only some, a minority of sola scripturists.

the question remains, if so many other sola scripturists do not interpret scripture the same way, just how authoritative can scripture be?

 

[Cassian]

My attempt to answer you was so long I had a start another thread. In any case, I realize you do not know you are saved. You have made you point well, that you do not know and you can't know. I understand. Maybe someday you will.

For me I believe in God's word and promise. I am hoping to point it out for you and others, but ultimately that all I can do.

Happy possible salvation to you, and hope you make it.

Quite the contrary. I do believe I am saved today. I cannot speak for tomorrow or next year or any year in the future. I cannot guarantee that my faith will be the same five years from now, than it is today. God is not the one that keeps my faith, or maintains my faith. It is me and only me.

I also believe in God's promises and a couple are that if I lose faith, I cannot be saved. If I deny Him, He will deny me. If I do not keep His commandments I do not love HIm. If I do not love Him I cannot be saved.

Your theology is a myth and non existant in scripture. It may exist in your interpretation, but then we know that man has developed many ways to be saved all based on scripture.

Part of your theology whether you even recognize it is that man can have a true relationship with God for a time, even bear fruits, but when he rejects Christ, your theology says that he was never a true believer to begin with. You actually believe in a God who can deceive someone in thinking they were saved but never really was saved. Your theology has God playing games with man, as if it is a sport.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The answer is no. When you are living in sin there is no salvation unless you turn and repent (have a change of heart and mind). He had sinned and did not make an apology for his sin, but fully confessed his sins to his father. (his earthly father). He would blame no one for his sin.

Ah, someone willing to give a straight ahead answer with explanation.

Lk 13:3,5 Nay except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish. Eternal security tries to get rid of the necessity of repentance.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

the simple answer and scripturally is absolutely no. But when those who have contradictory interpretations of scripture need to develop end-arounds so that it seemingly aligns with their interpretation. It like two wrongs will always make a right.

End arounds and not straight simple 'yes or 'no' answer.


They do not want to be seen saying one can live in fornication [as the prodigal spending his inheritance on harlots] and still be saved. But if they say the prodigal's behavior and sinful actions shows he was not saved to begin with that not only contradicts what the bible says about the prodigal but makes salvation dependent upon ones deeds Rom 2:6-11 and not upon faith only.

 

[heymikey80]

They do not want to be seen saying one can live in fornication [as the prodigal spending his inheritance on harlots] and still be saved.

Was David saved?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Answered in detail multiple times. If you understood you'd see it.



s

I do not see where you gave a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

is it? If it is, then you don't need Christ to save you. Just choose to be 100% sinless like Him & save yourself since you are representing yourself.

Sinning is not something forced upon anyone, it is a choice. As hard as I try not to sin I do and that is why I obey to be in grace to cover my shortcomings.

 

[smaller]

I do not see where you gave a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.

I don't care what kinds of choices are made. No one can say they have no sin and be in Truth. Your claim is that sin is only an external action.

It has been pointed to repeatedly that external measures are not the only measure of sin nor is it an honest internal measure.

Since none can say they 'have' no sin as a present tense 'have' the security of salvation itself can NOT be hinged to a fact of having same that none of us can change.

Your continuing claim is that the person who externally sins can not be saved. I would say by the scriptures that none of us can say we 'have' no sin and be in Truth as that IS the scriptural presentation.

Dress up the outside of the cup all you please. You only fail to understand what 'sin' really is. You isolate sins to only being an external matter.

It's not. Sin is an internal matter that all have no matter what we do on the outside.

Such external judgments only serve to show a greater slave.

But one can be just as much a slave 'internally' and we'd never see it.

Those who are not and can not be honest about 'internal sins' are in fact already partially enslaved by not being able to speak TRUTHFULLY.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Ah, someone willing to give a straight ahead answer with explanation.

Lk 13:3,5 Nay except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish. Eternal security tries to get rid of the necessity of repentance.

1 Peter 3:15 (KJV)
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[heymikey80]

Sinning is not something forced upon anyone, it is a choice. As hard as I try not to sin I do and that is why I obey to be in grace to cover my shortcomings.

How does one "obey" in this way? obey: "to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions"

sin is "mark-missing" that is, noncompliance with commands, restrictions, wishes or instructions.

 

[smaller]

Well, I'll tell you right now dear brother smaller I just sinned, I felt like giving you to old whatfor. I don't know how we could have gotten so far into it the other night that you would call me a liar.
I completely agree with what you stated in this post and have always believed this.

I call no believer a liar. That is not in my repertoire of scriptural understandings.

When a person is honest about the facts of having sin and that sin is in effect an internal and continuing matter that none of us escape exposure to on an ongoing basis, they sooner or later will begin to examine their own thought life.

When they do they will find that they are internally influenced by thought intrusions that are not them, but ARE of the tempter.

Who then would I look to in that scenario? Just the believer? Just myself?

No. I look to this fact to understand both myself and anyone else.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

I accept the fact that this happens to me. Most can't and isolate themselves from this being a factual matter for themselves as believers.

I can't because I know differently.

If for example I see this as a fact, I have no need to view any believer as 'themselves' alone in heart.

This is the fulcrum of my understandings. I consider it to be a fact that sin is of the devil who makes slaves of people to varying degrees.

When we insulate our own sins from that working it only shows a person who does not understand Jesus' Words personally and the other working in their hearts seeks to hide, and to isolate and blame only the believers.

I reject that notion.

Sin is an internal matter that begins via temptations in heart, which are in fact SINS of the tempter in that believer or in the unbeliever as they have no clue whatsoever that the 'god of this world' blinds and controls them.

Everyone who believes here has had the blinding of the tempter, of the 'god of this world' pulled back off their minds enough to see that God in Christ loves us. And that is a good thing to understand.

But we all tend to quickly forget our mutual and continuing adversary.

Do I call believers liars then? No. I understand that there is more than one operator in the lump of flesh inclusive of myself.

I know my battles are and begin 'internally' with an adversary that is not me.

s

 

[BornAgain]

I don't care what kinds of choices are made. No one can say they have no sin and be in Truth. Your claim is that sin is only an external action.

It has been pointed to repeatedly that external measures are not the only measure of sin nor is it an honest internal measure.

Since none can say they 'have' no sin as a present tense 'have' the security of salvation itself can NOT be hinged to a fact of having same that none of us can change.

Your continuing claim is that the person who externally sins can not be saved. I would say by the scriptures that none of us can say we 'have' no sin and be in Truth as that IS the scriptural presentation.

Dress up the outside of the cup all you please. You only fail to understand what 'sin' really is. You isolate sins to only being an external matter.

It's not. Sin is an internal matter that all have no matter what we do on the outside.

Such external judgments only serve to show a greater slave.

But one can be just as much a slave 'internally' and we'd never see it.

Those who are not and can not be honest about 'internal sins' are in fact already partially enslaved by not being able to speak TRUTHFULLY.

s

Whether it is internal or external it is still sin...if it is internal than you have a conflict and are not living right anyway. A sin is a sin...whether outwardly or inwardly. The original OP is eternal security. Do you have eternal security? If you are inwardly sinning than you don't...simple.