The False Security of Eternal Security

[Ernest T. Bass]

You said the word, "impenitent". How can you state "relying on impenitently"? It doesn't wash. You'll have to refine your question to one that is consistent with the existence of faith -- a humble, submitted reliance on God.

Still unable to give a simple yes or no answer.

Lk 13:3,5 Rom 2:5 those that do not repent will not be saved. THe prodigal did repent. Those that believe in eternal security would have to go along with the idea he could continue to live in fornication and still be saved. N a earlier post of mine, I showed where Charles Stanley among others said one could abandon their faith, live in all kinds of sin and it would not affect a person's salvation one bit. Do you agree with Stanly and the others?

You think about how the Spirit of God changes people -- real people in the world -- and then we can discuss how real people in the real world could possible lose track of the Spirit of God keeping track of them. How do they hide? How do they escape? How do they avoid what God is doing in them? Can they escape to the depths of the sea? Can they climb to the highest mountain? Is God not there?

How does this answer the questions I asked. Can a Christian go and live in a state of fornicaton and maintain his salvatoin while living in that sinful state, can a Chrsitian steal from his creditors and still maintain salvation?

What are you talking about? Are you talking about having a security in the lending industry? Or are you talking about someone who is (acting like our government) borrowing 'til they can't pay back, and then discussing their salvation?

I am simply talking about someone who borrows money and does not pay it back, that is, steals it.
Psa 37:21

If the latter -- they are changed by God, they don't change God.

The inconsistency of the question leads most people to ask whether the question is itself a meaningless paradox of items.

What is "inconsistent" about asking a simple question that if a Christian can steal, keep what he have stolena and still maintain his salvation?

There is no inconsistency with the question just avoidance of a simple plain yes or not answers.

So you are saying one can steal and keep the money he has stolen and maintain his salvation?

We see that God changes people, people don't change God. And so the question is whether the Spirit of God is dwelling inside those completely impenitent. He has declared Himself that He is not. Now God has also said and shown that His people continue to repent of sins. So between the time they first repented, to the time they next repented -- it is quite clear that they are also God's children -- even though they hadn't repented yet of the second sin. Project this forward, and you'll see what everyone else sees about repentance and being Christian.

I still do not see how this adresses the issue if a Christian can steal, keep what he has stolen and still maintain his salvation.

BUt you do say "Now God has also said and shown that His people continue to repent of sins."

This is what I am arguing for and this idea goes against eternal security for it makes salvation CONDITIONAL upon obedience in repenting.

But then you say "So between the time they first repented, to the time they next repented -- it is quite clear that they are also God's children -- even though they hadn't repented yet of the second sin."


Where does the bible say they will remain saved if they do not repent of the second sin? 1 Jn 1:7 says IF the Christian walks in the light then Christ blood celanses away all sins. The verb walk is present tense a continuous, sustained walking meaning that repentance must be continual and sustained inorder for Christ's blood to cleanse away all sins. IF the Christian does not repent of the second sin he is not walking in the light anymore.

On the other hand, the question of people not recognizing financial issues as being sinful, people who have not the first idea that loans aren't gifts; that payments must be made on schedule; people who don't "have a clue" as the saying goes -- it is quite shallow to assert that none of these people trust in God, that God doesn't live in debtors unable to pay. It's just a shallow works-righteousness view that would assert that God doesn't dwell with the poor and debtors.

Having read through this paragraph of yours a couple of times, it is just another way of saying if a Chrsitian steals from his creditors that stealing is just proof he was not really saved to begin with.

So you are either trying to make it impossible for a Christian to ever commit a sin such as stealing or you are making works/deeds, obedience to not stealing but obeying commands not to steal a condition to being saved and therefore salvation is not based upon faith only but how one acts, what one does, his deeds.


So if one who is a Christian does steal and according to you that stealing proves he was not really a true Chrsitian to begin with, does that mean when you sin, does your sinning prove you were never a true Christian to begin with either?

And my challenge is: could the Spirit of God in Paul have so little power as to be defeated by sin? Does the Spirit of God quit working in people? Under what conditions does the Spirit of God kill lives He brings to birth in Christ?

Was Paul perfectly sinless? No. When he sinned did his sinning prove he was not really a true Christian to begin with? If a Christian stealing form his creditors means he was not really a Christian to begin with, then Paul's sinning shows he was not a Christian to begin with for if this is true for one it is true for all.

 

[smaller]

Whether it is internal or external it is still sin...if it is internal than you have a conflict and are not living right anyway.

You are certainly welcome to claim no internal battles with the adversary, the tempter.

I do not consider such claims honest quite frankly. To enter into faith is also to enter into an adversarial engagement with the tempter with the heart and mind.

Those who claim they have no such internal battles are only blinded to them by that internal adversary.

A sin is a sin...whether outwardly or inwardly. The original OP is eternal security. Do you have eternal security? If you are inwardly sinning than you don't...simple.

I have eternal security. The adversary that works against me internally does not.

This is how I stand, divided against that working. This is also how God in Christ sees all of us. Unfortunately most believers think it's only them, therefore false judgment prevails within them over their own condition.

One can certainly live a life in prevailing over the adversary on an external basis.

But those who claim no internal adversary operational in them simply do not have an accurate scriptural picture of fact.

Temptation is internal and it is of the tempter.

That places the tempter where?

Do the math.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How does one "obey" in this way? obey: "to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions"

sin is "mark-missing" that is, noncompliance with commands, restrictions, wishes or instructions.

In Acts 2:38 Peter's listeners were commanded to repent and be baptized.

If they did not obey this command then they 'missed the mark' ie, sinned.

Where they forced by any to obey or not obey Peter's command? No. It was their choice to either sin by not obeying or do God's righeousness by obeying.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You are certainly welcome to claim no internal battles with the adversary, the tempter.

I do not consider such claims honest quite frankly. To enter into faith is also to enter into an adversarial engagement with the tempter with the heart and mind.

Those who claim they have no such internal battles are only blinded to them by that internal adversary.
I have eternal security. The adversary that works against me internally does not.

This is how I stand, divided against that working. This is also how God in Christ sees all of us. Unfortunately most believers think it's only them, therefore false judgment prevails within them over their own condition.

One can certainly live a life in prevailing over the adversary on an external basis.

But those who claim no internal adversary operational in them simply do not have an accurate scriptural picture of fact.

Temptation is internal and it is of the tempter.

That places the tempter where?

Do the math.

s

Do Christians sin?

 

[heymikey80]

Still unable to give a simple yes or no answer.

I see no simple answer to my question about David, either.

You want the simple answer? Here it is: it's not an internally-consistent question.

Lk 13:3,5 Rom 2:5 those that do not repent will not be saved. THe prodigal did repent. Those that believe in eternal security would have to go along with the idea he could continue to live in fornication and still be saved.

Wrong. Simply wrong.

First -- did the prodigal repent of everything? If he did, then no Christian is saved. Everyone still has something more to repent of.

Second -- David never divorced Bathsheba, never corrected a single thing from his adulterous relationship with his wife. He never reined in his kids, either, more sin for which he did not repent.

Where's David today?

N a earlier post of mine, I showed where Charles Stanley among others said one could abandon their faith, live in all kinds of sin and it would not affect a person's salvation one bit. Do you agree with Stanly and the others?

Cite it. I don't believe the view you're representing, no. What I believe in is Assured Perseverance, wherein God is not so weak as to bring His child through the worst losses, but yet the spark of faith is still within him.

How does this answer the questions I asked. Can a Christian go and live in a state of fornicaton and maintain his salvatoin while living in that sinful state, can a Chrsitian steal from his creditors and still maintain salvation?

Can you hate someone? It's spiritually a worse sin, according to Christ Jesus.

Can you envy someone? It's spiritually the same as stealing.

Can you look upon another with lust? It's spiritually the same as adultery.

God's a Spirit. How are you doing on God's terms?

And yes, I think you're a Christian -- even while a sinner.

What is "inconsistent" about asking a simple question that if a Christian can steal, keep what he have stolena and still maintain his salvation?

The inconsistency is lack of statements what God will do with him. That's Who makes a person saved; not his unrepentance. Are you saying God is incapable of saving someone who hasn't repented from every sin of his?

 

[heymikey80]

Do Christians sin?

Is the Apostle Paul a Christian?

 

[smaller]

Do Christians sin?

That would ALL depend on how honest one might be before God in Christ about their own thoughts.

To me it is quite pointless to try and hide and cover up the fact of having sinning assaults within the mind and heart via the tempter.

It is in fact the tempter within who maintains an adversarial relationship with both LAW and GRACE.

When this matter is known to any believer their doctrinal understandings will begin to clear up considerably.

A believer who is not internally honest is not allowed to see.

s

 

[BornAgain]

You are certainly welcome to claim no internal battles with the adversary, the tempter.

Did I say I did not have any internal battles?

 

[smaller]

Did I say I did not have any internal battles?

Then the obvious internal math should be quickly sighted within.

It's not just us here in our lump of flesh.

The primary issue with most forms of theology is an utter failure of the parties engaged to get a look at themselves within.

What may apply to us as believers applies in an exactly opposite way to the operations of the tempter within any of us.

There we all stand divided. One is saved. The other, not so much.

s

 

[BornAgain]

That would ALL depend on how honest one might be before God in Christ about their own thoughts.

To me it is quite pointless to try and hide and cover up the fact of having sinning assaults within the mind and heart via the tempter.

It is in fact the tempter within who maintains an adversarial relationship with both LAW and GRACE.

When this matter is known to any believer their doctrinal understandings will begin to clear up considerably.

A believer who is not internally honest is not allowed to see.

s

You seem to have a battle "within" from all of your posts. Do you consider an inward sin different than an outward sin?

 

[BornAgain]

Then the obvious internal math should be quickly sighted within.

It's not just us here in our lump of flesh.

The primary issue with most forms of theology is an utter failure of the parties engaged to get a look at themselves within.

What may apply to us as believers applies in an exactly opposite way to the operations of the tempter within any of us.

Not true, but I do not want to derail from the OP. We are all held accountable for our sins, whether it be an internal thought or an outward act. No difference...it is up to our own accountability how we handle our sin. We must repent and ask for forgiveness.

 

[smaller]

You seem to have a battle "within" from all of your posts. Do you consider an inward sin different than an outward sin?

I consider several scriptural facts when it comes to the issues of sin.

A. sin is of the devil, the tempter
B. the tempter has access to our minds and hearts (to which you also seem to acknowledge)
C. this internal war does not cease after we believe and can actually intensify if you are engaged in the war

Those who claim they have ceased from this battle under any flag called works or grace or legal obedience simply have not made an accurate accounting of what they fight against internally.

Nothing more than that.

It is initially distasteful to a believer to acknowledge that their own thoughts are tainted by the tempter. And most will simply deny it or try to focus the attention elsewhere, but it, sin, does begin internally and does so via the avenue of temptations which are in fact SIN THOUGHTS and ARE SIN and as such ARE OF THE DEVIL.

I have no need to isolate myself from these matters being a fact.

Those who do isolate themselves only show a form of internal slaveship in not being enabled to come to the obvious conclusion about what goes on inside of them. And if they do not and can not it is solely because God in Christ Himself has not allowed them to see and God in Christ Himself is factually engaged adversarially with the other party, allowing that other party to rise above an honest internal sight.

So, you may say you do have temptations via the tempter. Great. Are they sins? To me, unquestionably they are internal sins. Where does that place the tempter then? This is where all believers will stumble and they will be 'led' into a quick coverup of the fact that is actually being done in them by the adversary in not allowing them to see the fact of what is actually going on within them.

Theology 101.

s

 

[smaller]

Not true, but I do not want to derail from the OP. We are all held accountable for our sins,

If this is the case then you and I and every believer here will fry alive forever over internal sin thoughts. If you say tempations, such as adultery thoughts are not SINs I would beg to differ. If you say this does not happen within your heart and mind for this sin or any other sin I would beg to differ. And if you say you can stop this from happening I would beg to differ.

You can spin it however you please from there.

No one, exactly none of us can stop the tempter from doing his deal. You can account all the day long and it will mean nothing to the tempter nor does the tempter care about your form of accounting.

whether it be an internal thought or an outward act. No difference...it is up to our own accountability how we handle our sin. We must repent and ask for forgiveness.

Claim what you want. It's not a question of just you or I as believers.

There is another party involved that neither of us 'account' for. I do not provide excuses or coverups for the tempter.

That working in my mind and heart is and remains under total condemnation from God in Christ, period.

s

 

[BornAgain]

I consider several scriptural facts when it comes to the issues of sin.

A. sin is of the devil, the tempter
B. the tempter has access to our minds and hearts (to which you also seem to acknowledge)
C. this internal war does not cease after we believe and can actually intensify if you are engaged in the war

Those who claim they have ceased from this battle under any flag called works or grace or legal obedience simply have not made an accurate accounting of what they fight against internally.

Nothing more than that.

It is initially distasteful to a believer to acknowledge that their own thoughts are tainted by the tempter. And most will simply deny it or try to focus the attention elsewhere, but it sin does begin internally and does so via the avenue of temptations which are in fact SIN THOUGHTS and ARE SIN and as such ARE OF THE DEVIL.

I have no need to isolate myself from these matters being a fact.

Those who do isolate themselves only show a form of internal slaveship in not being enabled to come to the obvious conclusion about what goes on inside of them. And if they do not and can not it is solely because God in Christ Himself has not allowed them to see and God in Christ Himself is factually engaged adversarially with the other party, allowing that other party to rise above an honest internal sight.

So, you may say you do have temptations via the tempter. Great. Are they sins? To me, unquestionably they are internal sins. Where does that place the tempter then? This is where all believers will stumble and they will be 'led' into a quick coverup of the fact that is actually being done in them by the adversary in not allowing them to see the fact of what is actually going on within them.

Theology 101.

s

Yes, agreed. But you give too much credit and acknowledgement to the "tempter" instead of your power to defeat it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is the Apostle Paul a Christian?

Unbelievable that I cannot get a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to such simple questons.

 

[Danus]

Quite the contrary. I do believe I am saved today. I cannot speak for tomorrow or next year or any year in the future. I cannot guarantee that my faith will be the same five years from now, than it is today. God is not the one that keeps my faith, or maintains my faith. It is me and only me.

Yes I know. I get it. You are unaware of your salvation and do not believe God can do anything for you. That's why I say good luck to you, and hope you make it.

Your faith is so weak and small that you can easily walk away from it. Here today, gone the next. You have to work hard to keep what you have. This is what you described clearly, and i understand. You could could easily get up one day and just decide to replace God with something else. Who knows

Your hope lies in you and you alone, to maintain what little you have managed to muster. That's the hope in you, that you defend and have expressed clearly.

I think your totally correct in describing your salvation, and I think you have worded it very well.

You can't possibly know you are saved tomorrow. You can keep that for you if that works for you, but I'll stick with what God has placed in my heart for me. OK?

 

[smaller]

Yes, agreed. But you give too much credit and acknowledgement to the "tempter" instead of your power to defeat it.

Spin it all you want. I have no use in denying that that operation transpires within and does so via the tempter.

The math is abundantly clear then about 'where' the tempter is.

Division is the only important matter to all of us and that division comes first from within in immediate recognition of what is happening.

If we say it's just us, then that believer has lost their first line of defense.

I stand before God in Christ as a man divided. I know I am saved and the other working NOT, even knowing that I have this issue within.

Paul was not one whit different. By his own mouth he told us all that 'evil was present with him.' I accept this fact for myself. Paul even had a devil in his own flesh to remind him of this fact.

Gods Grace is entirely sufficient for us. And it is entirely insufficient for the other working.

Those who understand this inherent weakness will arise, here and now, under the power of God who prevails in such who are WEAK.

The overcomers overcome IN TRUTH. I have no interest in being a slave of lying about the existence of temptation OR the tempter within and make ZERO excuses for that working as being a fact when it is a fact.

My approach to God in Christ is exactly in this fashion. And I understand WHY it is this way because I am truthful about it.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

His Pure Water cleanses me. It has the exact opposite effect on the tempter, the source and origination of the evil conscience.

If one reads the scriptures often times a move of God is immediately followed by an adverse reaction of the tempter. That is how it works.

Where Truth prevailed in Peter for example, almost immediately after this we see Satan himself speaking through Peter's own lips.

How quickly we isolate ourselves from this same KEY of understandings.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Spin it all you want. I have no use in denying that that operation transpires within and does so via the tempter.

The math is abundantly clear then about 'where' the tempter is.

Division is the only important matter to all of us and that division comes first from within in immediate recognition of what is happening.

If we say it's just us, then that believer has lost their first line of defense.

I stand before God in Christ as a man divided. I know I am saved and the other working NOT, even knowing that I have this issue within.

Paul was not one whit different. By his own mouth he told us all that 'evil was present with him.' I accept this fact for myself. Paul even had a devil in his own flesh to remind him of this fact.

Gods Grace is entirely sufficient for us. And it is entirely insufficient for the other working.

Those who understand this inherent weakness will arise, here and now, under the power of God who prevails in such who are WEAK.

The overcomers overcome IN TRUTH. I have no interest in being a slave of lying about the existence of temptation OR the tempter within and make ZERO excuses for that working as being a fact when it is a fact.

My approach to God in Christ is exactly in this fashion. And I understand WHY it is this way because I am truthful about it.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

His Pure Water cleanses me. It has the exact opposite effect on the tempter, the source and origination of the evil conscience.

If one reads the scriptures often times a move of God is immediately followed by an adverse reaction of the tempter. That is how it works.

Where Truth prevailed in Peter for example, almost immediately after this we see Satan himself speaking through Peter's own lips.

How quickly we isolate ourselves from this same KEY of understandings.

s

Hebrews 10:22 is pretty deep. You should start another thread about that.

I do not put a spin on anything. God's grace is not sufficient for us...we have to repent, believe, confess and be baptized in order to receive eternal security.

 

[smaller]

Hebrews 10:22 is pretty deep. You should start another thread about that.

I do not put a spin on anything. God's grace is not sufficient for us...we have to repent, believe, confess and be baptized in order to receive eternal security.

That is quite a statement actually. One I discount immediately for not stacking up to Gods Own Words:

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for any of us 'and the presence of the tempter' to enter into heaven.

s

 

[BornAgain]

That is quite a statement actually. One I discount immediately for not stacking up to Gods Own Words:

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for any of us 'and the presence of the tempter' to enter into heaven.

s

Correct...but I just posted a thread on twisting scripture....please read that and then respond. The bible is not a smorgasbord that we can pick and choose from.