The False Security of Eternal Security

[Cassian]

What do you think "life" is? And of course it relates to eternal security based upon the "obedience of Christ!"


Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19

this context is speaking about the what Christ did on the Cross, which was to save the world, all of mankind from death. The life referred to here is physical life, not spiritual or our relationship with Christ.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Its kinda a "big picture", you have to put line upon line and precept upon precept, but it will come together for you. If you are humble and honest?


[/QUOTE]You kinda missed on that one, you are not even in the park. YOu better put more lines and precepts together.

 

[heymikey80]

Not possible to both be righteous and a sinner. In Rom 6:16 Paul said each one serves either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

David also speaks of the happiness of the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; 8 happy the man to whom the Lord not reckon sin.' Rom 4:6-8

Once again, we can safely reject views not admitting this situation -- righteous, yet sinner -- because Paul himself speaks of this situation -- sin and righteousness -- as typical and demonstrated by the example of Abraham and David's statement.

Jn 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."

Sinners are the ones who do not do God's will.

So, you're saying Jesus is the one God hears? mkay. That was this brand-new Christian's case.

Rom 5:19

Yeah? People are declared righteous through Christ's blood.

1 Tim 1:9

I was thinking more of 2 Tim 1:9 -- "who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace"

But yes, the Law is understood lawfully as good. Your point doesn't seem to carry here.

Mt 9:13 "But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

There is a distinct difference between the righteous who repent and and are saved and sinners who are impenitent and lost. A Christian who occasionally sins does not make him an impentent lost sinner.

Jesus is calling the sinners. You think you're righteous? Don't bother with Jesus.

It's what Mt 9:13 says right on the money.

 

[Mitspa]

[/COLOR] this context is speaking about the what Christ did on the Cross, which was to save the world, all of mankind from death. The life referred to here is physical life, not spiritual or our relationship with Christ.

What do you think our "spiritual" relationship with Christ is based on? Its based on His Work on the Cross, And receiving "His Spirit of Grace" in which we stand! So you think what He did over 2000 years ago is physical or spiritual? Where do think He is? How are we saved, in the physical or spiritual? Oh yea, do you believe in universal salvation?

 

[heymikey80]

One is always either ina present state of being in a lost or saved position. If Paul was a sinner as you seem to think, then he was in a lost state

Paul said he was a sinner. I have no opinion on the matter. But to miss that is to assert Paul was not a Christian, much less an Apostle.

It's what Paul said. The Greek is even emphasized, 1st person present indicative: "sinners, of whom I am chief."

You're saying Paul states a falsehood? That Scripture is false on this point?

One is either lost or saved, a righteous person or a sinnner, justified or unjustified

I've clearly pointed out that Paul considers himself both a saved Christian, and a sinner. Same time. Present indicative.

Christ's blood washes away sins, but for His blood to continue to wash away sins keeping the Christian blameless and spotless requires the Christian to continue to walk in the light. Walking in the light and being a sinner are two polar opposites, cannot be both at the same time.

That's not the case. People walk in the light when they confess their sins, which exposes their sins to the light. Walking in the light is walking in the light. Seeing what you're doing and where you're going.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13,



That person being described in Heb 6:4-6 is a full fledged, bonefied, "born again" believer that could fall away and as long as they are unrepented, they will be outside of Christ.

The description given "once enlightened" has always referred to baptism. "tasted of the heavenly gift" is the Eucharist. And "become partakers of the Holy Spirit" is receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling. Tasted the good word of God is hearning the Gospel.

Contrary to your statement, this happens to a lot of christians who at some point reject Christ. Simply entering into Christ, by baptism does not save one, but justifies one and the working out of our salvation with Christ is what constitutes our individual salvation. If one leaves, and God taries and they do not die, repentance is always open for anyone.

If one leaves Christ, then the Holy Spirit is also withdrawn.

So, now my question is why would you have rejected or at least spoke against what I had stated in the post you were responding to earlier if you are not OSAS? YOu seem to have some other version of salvation or you are unclear as to what it actually consitutes.

We have a different understanding as to the description of the person in Heb.6:4-6

Please give me scripture to support your statement that "once enlightened" refers to baptism. It is clear to me that one must be enlighted before they are baptisted to mean anything. RCC baptises infants. Are you saying that this would be considerd enlightenment?

First you say if "one leaves, repentence is always open" but then you say "if one leaves Christ, the Holy Spirit is also withdrawn". What or where did they leave that repentence is always open?

I thought I was pretty clear in where I stood.
A. once saved always saved - No
B. lost, saved, lost, saved, born again again - No
C. None of the above - Yes

I explained how I understand Heb 6:4-6
It is only under these requirments that I ever see that a born again christian could ever lose their salvation. Actually they didn't LOSE it they THREW IT AWAY.
I even gave to an example of what I meant. In the woman who took up and religion, another gospel that does not include Jesus the Christ.

Unless a saved person were to totally forever reject, deny that He died on the cross to pay for their sin and was raised up, and sits at the right hand of the Father, they are secure in their salvation. We can not LOSE it.

 

[Cassian]

What I was responding to was your statement that being secure in one's salvation would bring about laziness on their part. It would lead them to believe that they could do anything sinful that Satan tempted them with or that their soul (mind, psyche) that is in the process of renewal) would come up with.
I was trying to show that when we are secure in the Lord and an understanding of His grace it does not produce the above problem. When we believe what the Lord says about us (our new creature in Christ, that is our spirit that is one with Him) we identify ourselves differently. As I believe Paul is saying when he says that even though he does sin it is not him who sins but evil in him. Paul is identifying himself with that new creature that his spirit has become in Christ. It is satan and the garbage that is in his fleshy soul that is producing sin.

But where is the security? Every believer is engaged in a war between his flesh and his spirit. The object of salvation is to make sure that we remain in the spirit with the Spirits help. The Holy Spirit works in us to do God's will, but it is still man that must decide to do God's will. At the same time the Holy Spirit is influencing us, so is Satan with all his wiles. He also wants your soul and is working mightily to gain it. Which is why a believer must always make sure they are still IN Christ, Make sure they have not fallen out of Christ by permitting sin to reign.

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

What do you think our "spiritual" relationship with Christ is based on? Its based on His Work on the Cross, And receiving "His Spirit of Grace" in which we stand! Where do think He is? How are we saved, in the physical or spiritual? Oh yea, do you believe in universal salvation?

OUr spiritual relationship has nothing to do with what Christ did on the Cross. It has to do with faith, our believing that He in fact did save us all from death. But that faith only justifies us into that relationship.

Christ's work makes it possible for man and God to be united in a relationship that has eternal consequences. What Christ did not the Cross was for every human being. God desires a relationship with all men, so of necessity He first needed to save all men from death.

So you think what He did over 2000 years ago is physical or spiritual?

the life part is physical. The INcarnate Christ rose from the dead, physically, and thus gave life to our mortal natures. It is how we get eternal life, an eternal existance. Without an eternal existance a relationship is moot. This is explicitly why Christ was needed to save us from death because we could not.
Christ also, by His sacrifice atoned for the sin of the world. It's purpose was to enable Christ, as our High Priest, to forgive sins when we confessed our sins to Him. That part is used for our spiritual relationship because we do still sin. And when we do sin, we know He is able and will remit them when we confess them.

Where do think He is?

He is in heaven and reigning. He is also there as our High Priest.

How are we saved, in the physical or spiritual?

both. we are human beings made up of body and soul. If we are to live immortally, as human beings, we must be saved, both body and soul. I Cor 15:45 gives you the sequence which happens to be the reverse of how Adam fell.

Oh yea, do you believe in universal salvation?

NOt as you are asking it.

But I do believe in univeral salvation from death which is what the text you quoted is saying. Same thing I Cor 15:22, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, John 6:39, Rom 5:18 is saying. It is why Christ is called the Second Adam, and why He is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42. He overcame death, the power of satan for all, for the world, Heb 2:14. I John 3:8.

It is also why all Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead. Which is also confirmed in Acts 24:15, Rev 20:12-13, or even I Cor 15:13-19.

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

Please give me scripture to support your statement that "once enlightened" refers to baptism. It is clear to me that one must be enlighted before they are baptisted to mean anything. RCC baptises infants. Are you saying that this would be considerd enlightenment?

Heb 6:4. Baptism from the very beginning was called enlightenment. We enter into Christ, it is the beginning of our salvation. Any time one is baptised, whether adult or infants.

First you say if "one leaves, repentence is always open" but then you say "if one leaves Christ, the Holy Spirit is also withdrawn". What or where did they leave that repentence is always open?

all human beings, whether never in Christ, or fallen from Christ are always able to repent and return. See prodigal Son for a good example. Why would you think that God would not accept your repentance? He desires that all men come to know Him, and if we come unto Him, He will not cast os out.

Unless a saved person were to totally forever reject, deny that He died on the cross to pay for their sin and was raised up, and sits at the right hand of the Father, they are secure in their salvation. We can not LOSE it.

Contradictory theories. I suppose you could believe both and cover all bases. YOu seem to have them well covered.

 

[heymikey80]

The basic concept of eternal security from what I think is a Scriptural standpoint is that the believer is engaged in a promise from God to cleanse and keep him, by the power of the Spirit of God, redeeming the believer by the blood of Christ so that the believer will be prepared, cleansed, and glorified at Christ's arrival.

It's also strongly related to the concept of "Perseverance".

 

[Deborah13]

But where is the security? Every believer is engaged in a war between his flesh and his spirit. The object of salvation is to make sure that we remain in the spirit with the Spirits help. The Holy Spirit works in us to do God's will, but it is still man that must decide to do God's will. At the same time the Holy Spirit is influencing us, so is Satan with all his wiles. He also wants your soul and is working mightily to gain it. Which is why a believer must always make sure they are still IN Christ, Make sure they have not fallen out of Christ by permitting sin to reign.

I agree. As Paul said, walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. This flesh that he speaks of is the natural instincts that draw us towards sin. I agree, we must stay in Christ. We must not reject Him. I believe that a christian could fall so far into sin that they reject Him, not lose Him, deny that He is Lord and Savior. They could come to a place that they would actually despise the things of God, as Romans says or they could turn away from christianity to some other false religion. However, this can not happen without their knowledge. Just as a person cannot be saved without their knowledge they cannot reject Christ without their knowledge it is a willful act. They must say to themselves Jesus was not the Savior and Lord and mean it with full knowledge of the message of the gospel.
If the new covenant is the same as the old in that we still must fear that our sin will send us to hell, how is that any different than the old covenant? The Gospel is the Good News not the old news. Christ died for all our sins past, present, and future sins. How do we know? Because He is not going to do it again for each sin commited everyday by everyone who sins. All sin since the Cross was in the future. We repent (change our minds) and bring them into submission to Christ, this is a process. But all the while we are saved.
Maybe I will start a thread about this. I hope you and Mitspa will join in if I do. Maybe we can help each other to sort it all out. Even Peter said Pauls teachings were hard (hard to understand).
We are all OK with God, He understands we are the product of the places we've been in life and the teaching we've received. But we love Him and each other so we're good. Bless you, Deb

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,



OUr spiritual relationship has nothing to do with what Christ did on the Cross

No wonder you seem unable to grasp "eternal salvation" All the legal "spiritual" rights we have to "eternal life", peace with God, forgiveness, power over "sin in the flesh"...etc
Is based upon His Work, done over 2000 years ago! Now faith and "spirit" cannot be seperated for by faith we enter into the "Spirit" and only there, is the work of Christ found.


Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



Eternal salvation, is in the "spirit" not in the physical flesh.

 

[Randy]

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. The Lord didn't state once saved always saved. He stated remain in Him by obeying His commands.

That being said it is also written "The one who is born again will not continue to sin" There should be an outward sign of this sincere Love and faith for the Lord. Jesus stated the one who continues in His teachings show to be His. John 8:31 The question to me is can someone who "belongs" to the Lord walk away and deny that truth and turn into a bad tree. Highly unlikely but I won't say never.

The one who leads the whole world astray and sows the weeds is not greater then the One in us. Luke 10:18

Randy

 

[Danus]

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. The Lord didn't state once saved always saved. He stated remain in Him by obeying His commands.

That being said it is also written "The one who is born again will not continue to sin" There should be an outward sign of this sincere Love and faith for the Lord. Jesus stated the one who continues in His teachings show to be His. John 8:31 The question to me is can someone who "belongs" to the Lord walk away and deny that truth and turn into a bad tree. Highly unlikely but I won't say never.

The one who leads the whole world astray and sows the weeds is not greater then the One in us. Luke 10:18

Randy

Walking away is an outward sign of not being saved.

1 John 2:19(NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Those who are saved, in faith to the end are the ones saved. Their faith produces the good works many chase for salvation.

 

[BornAgain]

Walking away is an outward sign of not being saved.

1 John 2:19(NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Those who are saved, in faith to the end are the ones saved. Their faith produces the good works many chase for salvation.

Hi Danus,

In response to 1 John 2:19....

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they are not of us.



They were not "of" the disciples, they did not possess the same spirit of obedience ways of the disciples, is they did they had "they would have continued with" the disciples. In going out, in apostatizing from the faith, they were shown to be, not of the disciples, and for the reason assigned above.
This passage is like this: (a) they were once with the disciples; (b) they went out from them; (c) one does not go out from a place where he has never been; (d) had they possessed the same love for the Lord and equal desire to serve him as those from whom they went out, they would have continued with them; (e) they did, they did continue for a time, and then ceased to be faithful. (f) It follows, therefore, that they simply turned from the right way. We learn from this that (1) there was no necessity from without which made it impossible for these people to forsake the right way; (2) they were under no compulsion such as would have been true if the doctrine of decrees and predestination, as taught by Calvinists, is true. (3) Some obey the gospel and, like him of whom the Savior spoke in the parable of the soils, "heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth." Matthew 13:20,21. Others, like those of this text, adopt false and heretical doctrines, forsake the church, and make shipwreck concerning the faith. 1 Tim 1:19.

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

If the new covenant is the same as the old in that we still must fear that our sin will send us to hell, how is that any different than the old covenant? The Gospel is the Good News not the old news. Christ died for all our sins past, present, and future sins. How do we know? Because He is not going to do it again for each sin commited everyday by everyone who sins. All sin since the Cross was in the future. We repent (change our minds) and bring them into submission to Christ, this is a process. But all the while we are saved.

the Old Covenant is not any different in the end. It is different by means. In the New Covenant we have Christ atoning once for all sin and He becomes our High Priest. Secondly, we have the indwelling of the HOly Spirit to assist us. And the New Covenant is for all of mankind. Any man can come to Christ, any man can believe, and the Holy Spirit is actively working in all men to repent.
Christ did not die specifically for your sin. He atoned for sin. He, by His Blood reconciled the world back to God, Col 1:20. That sacrifice has a purpose which enables Christ, as our High Priest to remit sins when we confess them. Christ did not forgive a single sin on the Cross. Sins are ONLY forgiven when man desires to part with them through confession and repentance. Which is why when we sin, we need to confess our sin so that we can remain In Christ.

You have an incorrect outlook on salvation. Sin separates man from God. Sin is the ONLY way man can separate himself from God. If we do not confess our sin, and we begin to habitually or even willfully sin, and we do not confess those sins, they will condemn us. YOu are not saved just on the basis of belief or faith alone. YOU are the possessor of that salvation as long as you remain IN Christ, but you are not finitely saved in any shape or form. That will be determined at your death if you have endured, and at the judgement seat of Christ.

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

No wonder you seem unable to grasp "eternal salvation" All the legal "spiritual" rights we have to "eternal life", peace with God, forgiveness, power over "sin in the flesh"...etc
Is based upon His Work, done over 2000 years ago! Now faith and "spirit" cannot be seperated for by faith we enter into the "Spirit" and only there, is the work of Christ found.

that is not what I even stated. Christ did nothing for you in particular on the Cross that He did not do for every single human being.

What Christ did makes it possible for man to even have an eternal relationship with Christ. We have access to that power and grace for a relationship only if and when we believe and remain faithful in that relationship. Christ did not save you unto a relationship on the Cross. He did not forgive your sin on the Cross.

Not a single one of the verses you cited has any tie directly to the Cross, in that it occured by the Cross. They all occur because you believed, and then have access to the grace, gifts of God of being a believer.

What Christ did was so that every human being could believe and could have a relationship, all depending on whether that person desires to be in a relationship with His Creator and Savior. YOur personal salvation is possible through the Cross, but your actual salvation depends totally, wholly upon you, your faith, your faithfulness, your desire to be in an relationship now and in eternity with Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,



that is not what I even stated. Christ did nothing for you in particular on the Cross that He did not do for every single human being.

What Christ did makes it possible for man to even have an eternal relationship with Christ. We have access to that power and grace for a relationship only if and when we believe and remain faithful in that relationship. Christ did not save you unto a relationship on the Cross. He did not forgive your sin on the Cross.

Not a single one of the verses you cited has any tie directly to the Cross, in that it occured by the Cross. They all occur because you believed, and then have access to the grace, gifts of God of being a believer.

What Christ did was so that every human being could believe and could have a relationship, all depending on whether that person desires to be in a relationship with His Creator and Savior. YOur personal salvation is possible through the Cross, but your actual salvation depends totally, wholly upon you, your faith, your faithfulness, your desire to be in an relationship now and in eternity with Christ.

See post# 347 thats exactly what you posted! Anyone who can read can see your own words! And you are just wrong!

Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The obedience of Christ Jesus, "His righteousness" is "my righteousness" :biglol

 

[Deborah13]

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. The Lord didn't state once saved always saved. He stated remain in Him by obeying His commands.

That being said it is also written "The one who is born again will not continue to sin" There should be an outward sign of this sincere Love and faith for the Lord. Jesus stated the one who continues in His teachings show to be His. John 8:31 The question to me is can someone who "belongs" to the Lord walk away and deny that truth and turn into a bad tree. Highly unlikely but I won't say never.

The one who leads the whole world astray and sows the weeds is not greater then the One in us. Luke 10:18

Randy

I'm with you in that satan does not have any power any longer. Jesus' victory at the Cross took care of that. Satan is a toothless lion going around roaring just looking for someone to slip up so he can devour them. He a thief, he tries to steal everything he can from us including our health. If we do not give him power through lack of faith or living in sin he can do nothing. You remember, the helmet of salvation, the breast plate of righteousness, etc. Oh, and put on the mind of Christ. You have all the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you as a believer. You can be bold in your walk with Jesus, He won the victory and we get to live in it. Jesus is my Super Hero

 

[Deborah13]

Walking away is an outward sign of not being saved.

1 John 2:19(NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Those who are saved, in faith to the end are the ones saved. Their faith produces the good works many chase for salvation.

Danus, please be careful with this one. John was specifically talking about these people as antichrists. YIKE Big huge difference. Of coarse they weren't of them.

Remember the prodigal.

Charactors
father of son - Our Heavenly Father
prodigal son - the son who walks away
brother of son - fellow christian

Son takes inheritence and lives it up, falls in with the pigs, wallows around with them for awhile. Realizes that he had it better with dad. Goes home thinking about what he is going to say. Beg forgiveness, let me just be your slave, etc.
Father has been watching and waiting for the son's return. He runs to the son and before the son utters a word the father falls on his son, hugging him. Throws him a big party. Roasts the fatted calf, I think this is significate but I haven't studied it yet. And completely restores the son.
Did the son know his father?
Did the father know his son?
Did the father disown his son while he was gone?

Brother won't join the party. He's angry instead of happy for his family. He asks why his father would do this. You never have done this for me and look at me, I'm the faithful one. I'm the one who is always here for you.
The father lovely tells this son that everything the father has is the son's. "Don't you know...?" Poor boy was comparing his brother's behavior to his own and determining that he was better than his brother. He messed up too in his self righteous attitude.

So there you go. Only the Father is good. No room for boasting, comparing, sinning. We need not think that if someone walks away that they are not saved. Only God knows the truth.

And by the way the angels in heaven were having a grand old time, singing up a storm.

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

See post# 347 thats exactly what you posted! Anyone who can read can see your own words! And you are just wrong!

What I posted is exactly what I stated and is correct and reiterated in post 256.

YOur citation of Rom 5:19 has absolutely nothing to do with you personally or your personal salvation and your relationship by faith with Christ.

The text is referring to the obedience of Christ to His Father in that His death was the reconciliation of the world to God. The righteousness stated there is yours, but it is also given to very single human being. this is precisely what vs 18 stated. It is what Rom 11:32, I Cor 15:22, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, John 6:39, Heb 2:14, all state and many more.

Righteousness means to be put into a proper and correct alignment or relationship. It is because Christ gave life to the world, reconciled the world, that you can even believe and have an eternal relationship with Christ.
But Christ did not save you individually upon the Cross, surely not unto a relationship.