The False Security of Eternal Security

[Ernest T. Bass]

Both "lost" and "saved" express a previous condition. Y'can't be "lost" without having first been a part of what was lost.

One is always either ina present state of being in a lost or saved position. If Paul was a sinner as you seem to think, then he was in a lost state

Ultimately, yes. Or are you saying no one today is in a middle ground, not lost, not saved?

One is either lost or saved, a righteous person or a sinnner, justified or unjustified

"To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood" Rev 1:5

"this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

Christ's blood washes away sins, but for His blood to continue to wash away sins keeping the Christian blameless and spotless requires the Christian to continue to walk in the light. Walking in the light and being a sinner are two polar opposites, cannot be both at the same time.

 

[Adullam]

For clarity sake...It is not possible to be HOLY and a sinner. Someone who has become the righteousness of God in Christ does not sin.

The righteous (outside of holiness) do sin. But these are not in Christ. Those who abide in Christ cannot sin.

 

[Adullam]

Christ's blood washes away sins, but for His blood to continue to wash away sins keeping the Christian blameless and spotless requires the Christian to continue to walk in the light. Walking in the light and being a sinner are two polar opposites, cannot be both at the same time.

Well said Mr. Bass!!!

 

[Eventide]

Christ in you...

Walking in the light and being a sinner are two polar opposites, cannot be both at the same time.

And yet this precisely what is going on within the body of the Christian... Two completely contrary natures within the same lump of clay.. Our old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and the new man which is Christ in us, our hope of glory.

Our old man has nothing good in him and Christ in us is everything good and He can't get any better, He is the perfect man, even Christ in you, our hope of glory.

 

[Adullam]

Re: Christ in you...

And yet this precisely what is going on within the body of the Christian... Two completely contrary natures within the same lump of clay.. Our old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and the new man which is Christ in us, our hope of glory.

Our old man has nothing good in him and Christ in us is everything good and He can't get any better, He is the perfect man, even Christ in you, our hope of glory.

A person can't have 2 natures....that goes against nature! ;)

A computer has only one operating system. Same goes for us.

The reason why real Christians who have received new life from heaven sin is due to not abiding in Christ. It is like the 10 lepers who were healed...9 went on their own way rejoicing at such a salvation, but only one came back to prostrate himself before the Lord. I would think 10% is a very high figure for those who submit their lives to be lived through Christ rather than just go off rejoicing for services rendered.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you...

A person can't have 2 natures....that goes against nature! ;)

Then you simply do not understand the biblical fact that a born again Christian has their old Adamic nature (our old man), along with the divine nature of Christ (the new man), within the same lump of clay..

How do you put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts while putting on the Lord Jesus Christ ?

A computer has only one operating system. Same goes for us.

While a computer falls infinitely short of a person created in God's image, it's still possible for a computer to run multiple operating systems.. So even that is not a very accurate analogy.

The reason why real Christians who have received new life from heaven sin is due to not abiding in Christ. It is like the 10 lepers who were healed...9 went on their own way rejoicing at such a salvation, but only one came back to prostrate himself before the Lord. I would think 10% is a very high figure for those who submit their lives to be lived through Christ rather than just go off rejoicing for services rendered.

Oh... So you're a real Christian... Those not like you must be fake Christians.. ?

 

[Mitspa]

Re: Christ in you...

A person can't have 2 natures....that goes against nature! ;)

Gal 5:16



This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17



For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 7:14



For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15



For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16



If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17



Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18



For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19



For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20



Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21



I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22



For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23



But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



Thank God for the letters of Paul by which we know the truth

 

[Deborah13]

James 2:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

A. Once saved allows saved
B. lost, saved, lost, saved, born again again
C. Non of the above
Galatians 3:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So we see that we are not made perfect by the flesh. Our own works but those that are of the Spirit.
Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


What is the identity of those who cannot be renewed again to repentenace.
1. enlightened - draw by the Holy Spirit
2. truly born again - not just repeating words, not batisted as a child by their parents authority
3. baptisted in the Holy Spirit
4. Mature in the Word - ate, digested, benefited, understood with maturity
5, operated in the gifts of the Spirit

This is a person who has received and understood. The author was speaking to the Hebrews, some of them may have even been present at Pentacost when the Holy Spirit was first received.

Romans 1:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

This is a complete rejection of the blood of Christ. The rejection of Him as Savior and Lord.

 

[Deborah13]

James 2:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

A. Once saved allows saved
B. lost, saved, lost, saved, born again again
C. Non of the above
Galatians 3:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So we see that we are not made perfect by the flesh. Our own works but those that are of the Spirit.
Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


What is the identity of those who cannot be renewed again to repentenace.
1. enlightened - draw by the Holy Spirit
2. truly born again - not just repeating words, not batisted as a child by their parents authority
3. baptisted in the Holy Spirit
4. Mature in the Word - ate, digested, benefited, understood with maturity
5, operated in the gifts of the Spirit

This is a person who has received and understood. The author was speaking to the Hebrews, some of them may have even been present at Pentacost when the Holy Spirit was first received.

Romans 1:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

This is a complete rejection of the blood of Christ. The rejection of Him as Savior and Lord.

 

[Cassian]

James 2:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

A. Once saved allows saved
B. lost, saved, lost, saved, born again again
C. Non of the above
Galatians 3:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So we see that we are not made perfect by the flesh. Our own works but those that are of the Spirit.
Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


What is the identity of those who cannot be renewed again to repentenace.
1. enlightened - draw by the Holy Spirit
2. truly born again - not just repeating words, not batisted as a child by their parents authority
3. baptisted in the Holy Spirit
4. Mature in the Word - ate, digested, benefited, understood with maturity
5, operated in the gifts of the Spirit

This is a person who has received and understood. The author was speaking to the Hebrews, some of them may have even been present at Pentacost when the Holy Spirit was first received.

Romans 1:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

This is a complete rejection of the blood of Christ. The rejection of Him as Savior and Lord.

Where is the doctrine of "eternal security" mentioned, implied, in any of these verses? One of them is actually believers falling away, so it could not possibly be supporting eternal security. Maybe you have a different nuance in your interpretation of eternal security than others.

 

[Deborah13]

Where is the doctrine of "eternal security" mentioned, implied, in any of these verses? One of them is actually believers falling away, so it could not possibly be supporting eternal security. Maybe you have a different nuance in your interpretation of eternal security than others.

Where did I post that I believed in OSAS?

The answer from my understanding is C

Please reread the description of the person who could become reprobate. This could only be a person has fully and completely with a full understanding received everything from the Holy Spirit and yet rejected it in the end.

Let me give you an example. I indirectly know someone who was saved, baptisted in the Spirit, operated in the gifts, etc. Somehow they got evolved in some type of Jewish mysticism sect. They then rejected their belief in Jesus as their Savior and Lord. I don't know if they would qualify as the person who is described in Heb.6:4-6, I do not know if the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn. If not then they are still in a position to repent.
From the Heb. and Romans it appears to me that this is a possiblity but for almost any saved christian this would never happen. The requirements are stiff and the rejection is absolute. It is based on one sin and one sin only, the rejection of Christ and only those who are not ignorant of God in anyway. MATURE in all things of God. Very few are.

 

[Mitspa]

James 2:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

A. Once saved allows saved
B. lost, saved, lost, saved, born again again
C. Non of the above
Galatians 3:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So we see that we are not made perfect by the flesh. Our own works but those that are of the Spirit.
Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


What is the identity of those who cannot be renewed again to repentenace.
1. enlightened - draw by the Holy Spirit
2. truly born again - not just repeating words, not batisted as a child by their parents authority
3. baptisted in the Holy Spirit
4. Mature in the Word - ate, digested, benefited, understood with maturity
5, operated in the gifts of the Spirit

This is a person who has received and understood. The author was speaking to the Hebrews, some of them may have even been present at Pentacost when the Holy Spirit was first received.

Romans 1:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

This is a complete rejection of the blood of Christ. The rejection of Him as Savior and Lord.

Good post! sounds like eternal security is very secure for those who keep their faith in Christ and not their own efforts!

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. :amen

 

[Cassian]

Where did I post that I believed in OSAS?

In posts 286 & 290 for starters. YOu were writing quite strongly against the biblical explanation I was giving in opposition to eternal security.
So, since this is a thread regarding eternal security and you were speaking against my opposition to it, I assumed you were a adherent of OSAS.
If you are not, then I apologize, but they please explain just what you were talking about in those posts.

 

[Cassian]

Good post! sounds like eternal security is very secure for those who keep their faith in Christ and not their own efforts!

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. :amen

These texts are not supporting or denying "eternal security as the reformed proponents hold. So, what are you actually trying to say here?

 

[Mitspa]

These texts are not supporting or denying "eternal security as the reformed proponents hold. So, what are you actually trying to say here?

What do you think "life" is? And of course it relates to eternal security based upon the "obedience of Christ!"


Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Its kinda a "big picture", you have to put line upon line and precept upon precept, but it will come together for you. If you are humble and honest?

 

[Deborah13]

In posts 286 & 290 for starters. YOu were writing quite strongly against the biblical explanation I was giving in opposition to eternal security.
So, since this is a thread regarding eternal security and you were speaking against my opposition to it, I assumed you were a adherent of OSAS.
If you are not, then I apologize, but they please explain just what you were talking about in those posts.

What I was responding to was your statement that being secure in one's salvation would bring about laziness on their part. It would lead them to believe that they could do anything sinful that Satan tempted them with or that their soul (mind, psyche) that is in the process of renewal) would come up with.
I was trying to show that when we are secure in the Lord and an understanding of His grace it does not produce the above problem. When we believe what the Lord says about us (our new creature in Christ, that is our spirit that is one with Him) we identify ourselves differently. As I believe Paul is saying when he says that even though he does sin it is not him who sins but evil in him. Paul is identifying himself with that new creature that his spirit has become in Christ. It is satan and the garbage that is in his fleshy soul that is producing sin.

 

[Mitspa]

Hey Deb13!

It seems the idea that some may serve God by "love" is a strange thought to some. The truth of His love for us, also gives us the strength and desire to live godly lives. This love is also the witness to us of His "eternal desires" to keep us with Him where He is. Now I find it very hard to relate to "christians" who do not have the witness of His Love, I think that must be at the root cause of many of the disputes on this forum?

Rom 5:2

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4

And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5


And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

[Deborah13]

Hey Deb13!

It seems the idea that some may serve God by "love" is a strange thought to some. The truth of His love for us, also gives us the strength and desire to live godly lives. This love is also the witness to us of His "eternal desires" to keep us with Him where He is. Now I find it very hard to relate to "christians" who do not have the witness of His Love, I think that must be at the root cause of many of the disputes on this forum?

Rom 5:2



By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3



And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4



And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5






And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Hey Yourself,

Jesus, gave us 2 commandants.

1. Love God
1 John 4:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.


So we see that we are not capable of loving Him, at least not fully, until we realize how much He loves us. Frankly, I don't see us ever really understanding the full extent of His love for us.

2. Love your neighbor as you love YOURSELF

If you see yourself as the "accuser of the brothern, the thief, satan" says you are how could you love yourself? When we begin to see with spiritual understanding the grace of God, to see yourselves as that new creature in Christ that He says we are only then can we love as we are loved. We believe that because He lives in and through us that we can obey these two commandments.

We have to know that we are righteous in Him.
Great scriptures you have given to this point of righteous in Him.

 

[heymikey80]

This is the typical false view of modern Christendom...it rejects the power of grace as a means to overcome sin. Whatever is of God is perfect. The natural state of a true Christian is to be clean, spotless, since it is the blood of Christ that purifies him. I know the argument that uses this cleanness as a semantic....as if God were fooled and our sins were hidden from the sight of God. But is the death of Christ a semantic???? IS the purity of Christ just an idea? So they who abide in Christ are as He...without sin.

John the Apostle says, "if we claim 'we do not have sin,' we are leading ourselves astray, and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8

So we can safely table this as not from Jesus' teaching to the Apostles.

Of course IF we sin in the course of our training, Jesus is there to cleanse us again to the place of the divine fellowship and presence of God.

Yes. But "Not everything is soteriology."

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

Where did I post that I believed in OSAS?
The answer from my understanding is C
Please reread the description of the person who could become reprobate. This could only be a person has fully and completely with a full understanding received everything from the Holy Spirit and yet rejected it in the
end.
Let me give you an example. I indirectly know someone who was saved, baptisted in the Spirit, operated in the
gifts, etc. Somehow they got evolved in some type of Jewish mysticism sect. They then rejected their belief in
Jesus as their Savior and Lord. I don't know if they would qualify as the person who is described in Heb.6:4-6,
I do not know if the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn. If not then they are still in a position to repent.
From the Heb. and Romans it appears to me that this is a possiblity but for almost any saved christian this would never happen. The requirements are stiff and the rejection is absolute. It is based on one sin and one sin
only, the rejection of Christ and only those who are not ignorant of God in anyway. MATURE in all things of God.
Very few are.

That person being described in Heb 6:4-6 is a full fledged, bonefied, "born again" believer that could fall away and as long as they are unrepented, they will be outside of Christ.

The description given "once enlightened" has always referred to baptism. "tasted of the heavenly gift" is the Eucharist. And "become partakers of the Holy Spirit" is receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling. Tasted the good word of God is hearning the Gospel.

Contrary to your statement, this happens to a lot of christians who at some point reject Christ. Simply entering into Christ, by baptism does not save one, but justifies one and the working out of our salvation with Christ is what constitutes our individual salvation. If one leaves, and God taries and they do not die, repentance is always open for anyone.

If one leaves Christ, then the Holy Spirit is also withdrawn.

So, now my question is why would you have rejected or at least spoke against what I had stated in the post you were responding to earlier if you are not OSAS? YOu seem to have some other version of salvation or you are unclear as to what it actually consitutes.