The False Security of Eternal Security

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

I'm with you in that satan does not have any power any longer. Jesus' victory at the Cross took care of that. Satan is a toothless lion going around roaring just looking for someone to slip up so he can devour them. He a thief, he tries to steal everything he can from us including our health. If we do not give him power through lack of faith or living in sin he can do nothing. You remember, the helmet of salvation, the breast plate of righteousness, etc. Oh, and put on the mind of Christ. You have all the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you as a believer. You can be bold in your walk with Jesus, He won the victory and we get to live in it. Jesus is my Super Hero

Wow, satan has no power. I think you should read the NT again.

The victory of Christ on the Cross defeated death. But that death will actually not be done away with until the eschaton, the last day, when all shall be raised. Until then all of us will die once, the consequence of the condemnation through Adam. Sin is still with us, it was not eradicated. Our mortal, sinful natures are still with us and you think they became benign?

YOur statement actually belies your theology. When you state "if we do not give him power through lack of faith or living in sin he can do nothing" is a contradiction to most of what you are trying to say. Satan cannot force you to do anything either against your will. It is ONLY you that can determine your own spiritual walk. It is why we have access to all that armour. God is not using that armor in absence of your will. If you don't wnat the armor you can discard it and take your chances with the devil. God is not saving you inspite of yourself. He is ONLY saving you if you continue to be willing to be saved.

What do you think the judgement is for anyway. Do you think that God is going to judge Himself on how well he used the armor on your behalf, or on how well you used the armour He gave you to use. JUst remember, if it is all of God, then everyone would be saved, since that is why God created man, and why Christ saved mankind from death, and that God desires all men to be saved. But it is not up to God. It is actually up to you.

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

And by the way the angels in heaven were having a grand old time, singing up a storm.

Which is absolutely rediculous unless the prodigal son was actually lost and was found.

If He was always saved, why rejoice. What would they be rejoicing about?

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13,


Wow, satan has no power. I think you should read the NT again.

The victory of Christ on the Cross defeated death. But that death will actually not be done away with until the eschaton, the last day, when all shall be raised. Until then all of us will die once, the consequence of the condemnation through Adam. Sin is still with us, it was not eradicated. Our mortal, sinful natures are still with us and you think they became benign?

YOur statement actually belies your theology. When you state "if we do not give him power through lack of faith or living in sin he can do nothing" is a contradiction to most of what you are trying to say. Satan cannot force you to do anything either against your will. It is ONLY you that can determine your own spiritual walk. It is why we have access to all that armour. God is not using that armor in absence of your will. If you don't wnat the armor you can discard it and take your chances with the devil. God is not saving you inspite of yourself. He is ONLY saving you if you continue to be willing to be saved.

What do you think the judgement is for anyway. Do you think that God is going to judge Himself on how well he used the armor on your behalf, or on how well you used the armour He gave you to use. JUst remember, if it is all of God, then everyone would be saved, since that is why God created man, and why Christ saved mankind from death, and that God desires all men to be saved. But it is not up to God. It is actually up to you.

Cassian my friend, whatever are you going on about. OK it's way late here and I am giving up for tonight. See you tomorrow and I'll go through this then.
Happy trials to you until we meet again.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,



What I posted is exactly what I stated and is correct and reiterated in post 256.

YOur citation of Rom 5:19 has absolutely nothing to do with you personally or your personal salvation and your relationship by faith with Christ.

The text is referring to the obedience of Christ to His Father in that His death was the reconciliation of the world to God. The righteousness stated there is yours, but it is also given to very single human being. this is precisely what vs 18 stated. It is what Rom 11:32, I Cor 15:22, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, John 6:39, Heb 2:14, all state and many more.

Righteousness means to be put into a proper and correct alignment or relationship. It is because Christ gave life to the world, reconciled the world, that you can even believe and have an eternal relationship with Christ.
But Christ did not save you individually upon the Cross, surely not unto a relationship.

The Cross of Christ has nothing to do with our personal salvation? Are you so religious that you are unable to see that the Cross of Christ is the only salvation anyone has? Yes He knew me and died for me on that that Cross! He saved me and all who believe that great and terrible day!
1Co 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

It is finished!

 

[Cassian]

The Cross of Christ has nothing to do with our personal salvation? Are you so religious that you are unable to see that the Cross of Christ is the only salvation anyone has? Yes He knew me and died for me on that that Cross! He saved me and all who believe that great and terrible day!
1Co 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

It is finished!

He died for you as well as every single human being that will ever live. He restored life to the world, to mankind. Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. He overcame the fall, the condemnation of Adam.

How many ways can one say it, but He did not save you as an individual. He did not save you unto a relationship. He saved you and every human being so that you could have a relationship with Him. That relationship is by faith, not by the Cross. The Cross made it possible.

If the Cross saved you as an individual, then faith is mere theater and worthless, as well as the relationship.

Man was created for a purpose. The purpose did not change because of the fall, but that man could not fulfill that purpose with God. Since man could not save himself from death, Christ did that for all men, so that man could freely fulfill the purpose of why we were created, and saved.

Your personal salvation was not finished on the Cross. Your personal salvation, your relationship with God is all about you and God now, your life by and through faith.

You are quite confused on the difference between what Christ did for mankind, and what man was created to do, to be in an eternal relationship freely entered into by faith.

Or to say it yet another way, Christ saved you as part of mankind from death, so that you could freely choose to enter into a relationship by faith, and be saved through that faith.

Or, yet another way, All men will get eternal life, because of Christ's death and resurrection overcoming death. If you believe that He saved you from death, then you are permitted to enter into a relationship with Him,(justification by faith) and if you work out your salvation with Him and endure to the end, you will have eternal life WITH HIM, as opposed to eternal life without Him, which is hell.

 

[smaller]

He died for you as well as every single human being that will ever live. He restored life to the world, to mankind. Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. He overcame the fall, the condemnation of Adam.

How many ways can one say it, but He did not save you as an individual. He did not save you unto a relationship. He saved you and every human being so that you could have a relationship with Him. That relationship is by faith, not by the Cross. The Cross made it possible.

The above is nothing more than another 'packaged theological set' that your particular group insists that others bow to.

If the Cross saved you as an individual, then faith is mere theater and worthless, as well as the relationship.

Very disconnected logic on that one as well.

Faith comes to individuals.

To what extend they may perceive the matters is the only question. Everyone by faith perceives some form of 'effect' of same at a minimum to themselves as an individual. And to other individuals they may have no perception given to the matters whatsoever.

I would agree that our perceptions vary, but the actions and effects of same are not changed by our varying perceptions.

Man was created for a purpose. The purpose did not change because of the fall, but that man could not fulfill that purpose with God. Since man could not save himself from death, Christ did that for all men, so that man could freely fulfill the purpose of why we were created, and saved.

If only they buy into your particular package of these matters. Others will be reluctant to crawl into a box constructed by some supposedly infallible group of sinners who supposedly have the only correct perception.

Your personal salvation was not finished on the Cross. Your personal salvation, your relationship with God is all about you and God now, your life by and through faith.

Again, you merely present a boxed theological set that is proposed as thee only set available to perceive.

Some will see that effort as problematic by virtue of limited impositions of sight.

You are quite confused on the difference between what Christ did for mankind, and what man was created to do, to be in an eternal relationship freely entered into by faith.

Again, that is only how your group happens to see things and nothing more. There may in fact be more or other things to see and perceive.

You set a 'model' and demand that others conform to that particular model or else.

Or to say it yet another way, Christ saved you as part of mankind from death, so that you could freely choose to enter into a relationship by faith, and be saved through that faith.

And of course you can't even see the conflicts in your own model, claiming on one hand that Christ saved no one in particular yet saved people in particular.

Or, yet another way All men will get eternal life, because of Christ's death and resurrection overcoming death. If you believe that He saved you from death, then you are permitted to enter into a relationship with Him,(justification by faith) and if you work out your salvation with Him and endure to the end, you will have eternal life WITH HIM, as opposed to eternal life without Him, which is hell.

Even in postulating 'another way' and then the perception of 'another way' you also show that there are in fact an abundance of ways to reflect on these matters.

I would really have to say that any such claims by nature can not be Perfect Sight. Paul for example never claimed perfect sight and vision from his own statements and that those who see 'accurately' will take the factual seat of having imperfect sight presently. Those who claim to see and to have the whole enchilada on every matter would to me be instantly disqualified based on such claims.

Paul took joy even with Christ preached in pretence.

I might 'reflect' that Paul had more trust in Christ than in the imperfect purveyors of any given boxed set programs.

s

 

[Deborah13]

He died for you as well as every single human being that will ever live. He restored life to the world, to mankind. Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. He overcame the fall, the condemnation of Adam.

How many ways can one say it, but He did not save you as an individual. He did not save you unto a relationship. He saved you and every human being so that you could have a relationship with Him. That relationship is by faith, not by the Cross. The Cross made it possible.

If the Cross saved you as an individual, then faith is mere theater and worthless, as well as the relationship.

Man was created for a purpose. The purpose did not change because of the fall, but that man could not fulfill that purpose with God. Since man could not save himself from death, Christ did that for all men, so that man could freely fulfill the purpose of why we were created, and saved.

Your personal salvation was not finished on the Cross. Your personal salvation, your relationship with God is all about you and God now, your life by and through faith.

You are quite confused on the difference between what Christ did for mankind, and what man was created to do, to be in an eternal relationship freely entered into by faith.

Or to say it yet another way, Christ saved you as part of mankind from death, so that you could freely choose to enter into a relationship by faith, and be saved through that faith.

Or, yet another way, All men will get eternal life, because of Christ's death and resurrection overcoming death. If you believe that He saved you from death, then you are permitted to enter into a relationship with Him,(justification by faith) and if you work out your salvation with Him and endure to the end, you will have eternal life WITH HIM, as opposed to eternal life without Him, which is hell.

First let me say that I am not saying, and I don't believe that is what Mitspa is saying either, is that we received our salvation at the Cross. That is nonsense. However, he paid a debt that I could not pay and that is personal!

Example:
A person came to your town and paid off all the debts that everyone in your town owed and that included your's. He did it to accomplish something in your town that he wanted to see your town accomplish that was in his plan. Would you say, oh he did that for everybody so I just happen to be included in his plan? Or would you still be grateful that he had paid your debt? You still could move to another town and move yourself out of his plan or you could stay and live out his plan. It's up to you. It doesn't change the fact that he paid the debt.
The problem with using examples that are demonstrated using wordly elements is that just that, they are worldly. They do not consider the the spiritual.

Jesus had to die to pay my debt along with all sin, for all people, for all time in order for His plan to be accomplished. However, this does not negate my view that I sin and that my sin contributed to His suffering.

 

[Danus]

Hi Danus,

In response to 1 John 2:19....

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they are not of us.



They were not "of" the disciples, they did not possess the same spirit of obedience ways of the disciples, is they did they had "they would have continued with" the disciples. In going out, in apostatizing from the faith, they were shown to be, not of the disciples, and for the reason assigned above.
This passage is like this: (a) they were once with the disciples; (b) they went out from them; (c) one does not go out from a place where he has never been; (d) had they possessed the same love for the Lord and equal desire to serve him as those from whom they went out, they would have continued with them; (e) they did, they did continue for a time, and then ceased to be faithful. (f) It follows, therefore, that they simply turned from the right way. We learn from this that (1) there was no necessity from without which made it impossible for these people to forsake the right way; (2) they were under no compulsion such as would have been true if the doctrine of decrees and predestination, as taught by Calvinists, is true. (3) Some obey the gospel and, like him of whom the Savior spoke in the parable of the soils, "heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth." Matthew 13:20,21. Others, like those of this text, adopt false and heretical doctrines, forsake the church, and make shipwreck concerning the faith. 1 Tim 1:19.

Correct. for the most part.

Danus, please be careful with this one. John was specifically talking about these people as antichrists. YIKE Big huge difference. Of coarse they weren't of them.

Remember the prodigal.

Charactors
father of son - Our Heavenly Father
prodigal son - the son who walks away
brother of son - fellow christian

Son takes inheritence and lives it up, falls in with the pigs, wallows around with them for awhile. Realizes that he had it better with dad. Goes home thinking about what he is going to say. Beg forgiveness, let me just be your slave, etc.
Father has been watching and waiting for the son's return. He runs to the son and before the son utters a word the father falls on his son, hugging him. Throws him a big party. Roasts the fatted calf, I think this is significate but I haven't studied it yet. And completely restores the son.
Did the son know his father?
Did the father know his son?
Did the father disown his son while he was gone?

Brother won't join the party. He's angry instead of happy for his family. He asks why his father would do this. You never have done this for me and look at me, I'm the faithful one. I'm the one who is always here for you.
The father lovely tells this son that everything the father has is the son's. "Don't you know...?" Poor boy was comparing his brother's behavior to his own and determining that he was better than his brother. He messed up too in his self righteous attitude.

So there you go. Only the Father is good. No room for boasting, comparing, sinning. We need not think that if someone walks away that they are not saved. Only God knows the truth.

And by the way the angels in heaven were having a grand old time, singing up a storm.

That depends on how you define the anti-Christ.

John describes it simply this way;

1 John 1:23-25
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Anyone who can walk away, fall away, be taken away.....denies Christ;. Simple as that, and the truth is not in them. I will remind everyone the title of this thread "The FALSE Security of eternal security. Meaning simply there is no faith in eternal salvation. For some I do believe that's true, but no one can say that it's false for those who are with God now, and those who will be, and of those who know they will be, it is not by lack of faith, but of full faith. The same faith in Christ that John describes. Those who have a weak faith, or no faith in Christ, should question their salvation.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13,

Which is absolutely rediculous unless the prodigal son was actually lost and was found.

If He was always saved, why rejoice. What would they be rejoicing about?

I know the particular scripture you are referring to, that the angels rejoice when one is saved. However, do you not think that when a child of God gets out of the pig wallow they Don't rejoice. The Father did with all his household, it seems to me this would include the angels. They rejoice in all things that are of God.

Would you rejoice if a fellow child of God were to come out of their pig wallow into obedience to God? Or would you sternly compare their walk to your's, as the other brother did?

"Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice."

 

[BornAgain]

Correct. for the most part.

You modified your post, which is the part you don't agree with now?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

David also speaks of the happiness of the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; 8 happy the man to whom the Lord not reckon sin.' Rom 4:6-8

Once again, we can safely reject views not admitting this situation -- righteous, yet sinner -- because Paul himself speaks of this situation -- sin and righteousness -- as typical and demonstrated by the example of Abraham and David's statement.

So, you're saying Jesus is the one God hears? mkay. That was this brand-new Christian's case.

Yeah? People are declared righteous through Christ's blood.

I was thinking more of 2 Tim 1:9 -- "who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace"

But yes, the Law is understood lawfully as good. Your point doesn't seem to carry here.

Jesus is calling the sinners. You think you're righteous? Don't bother with Jesus.

It's what Mt 9:13 says right on the money.

David's statement is one is either lawless or forgiven, cannot be both at the same time. David is NOT speaking of one who is both lawless AND forgiven at the same time.


-----------


Jn 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."

Sinners are the ones who do not do God's will.


This verse shows there is a clear distinction between one who is righteous and one who is a sinner for God hears one (righteous) and not the other (sinnner). Therefore one cannot be at the same time both righteous who God hears and a sinners who God does not hear.


Rom 5:19 "5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man many will be made righteous.

One is either made a sinner or made righteous, one is not made both a sinner and righteous at the same time for you cannot be both righteous and sinner at the same time.



1 Tim 1:9 "realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers."

Again, this verse shows a clear distinction between a righteous person and a sinner. The law was not for the righteous but for the sinner so one cannot be both righteous and a sinner at the same time.


Mt 9:13 "But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Again, there is a clear distinction between the righteous who repent and and are saved and sinners who are impenitent and lost. So again one cannot be at the same both a righteous person who needs no repentance and as sinner who needs to repent.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Paul said he was a sinner. I have no opinion on the matter. But to miss that is to assert Paul was not a Christian, much less an Apostle.

It's what Paul said. The Greek is even emphasized, 1st person present indicative: "sinners, of whom I am chief."

You're saying Paul states a falsehood? That Scripture is false on this point?

Again from 1 TIm 1:13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. "

Paul speaks of his sinning and being a sinner in the past here, he was not presently a sinner who was sinning by blasphiming and persecuting, etc.

WHen Paul aid he was chief of sinners he was speaking of a present tense remorse he had for his past sinful life.

and a sinner[/I]. Same time. Present indicative.

In an earlier post I gave you several verses that shows it is impossible to be both a righteus Christian and sinner at the same time. Here they are again:

Again from Eph 1:4 2 Pet 3:14 and Mt 5:48 if one is not holy, blamlesss, spotless and perfect then he is not a Christian.

Paul said he was holy Eph 3:5

In 1 Thess 2:10 Paul said "Ye [are] witnesses, and God [also], how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:"

Phil 3:15 Paul said "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded:..."


Rom 6:1,2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Why would Paul hypocritcally admonish others not to continue in sin when he, as you erronously think, lived in sin himself?

Was Paul dead to sin or was he a sinner living in sin?

1 Cor 15:34 "Awake to righteousness, and sin (imperative) not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame."

Why would Paul command others to sin not when he himself, according to you, was a sinner?


Could a sinner as Paul live up to 1 Jn 3:6,9 ?


Was Paul of the devil, 1 Jn 3:8 ?

Not possible to both be righteous and a sinner. In Rom 6:16 Paul said each one serves either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Cannot serve both at the same time.


Rom 6:11 a Christian as Paul is dead to sin, so one cannot be at the same time both dead to sin and be a sinner.

1 Cor 11:1 if Paul was a sinner then Christ was too.

That's not the case. People walk in the light when they confess their sins, which exposes their sins to the light. Walking in the light is walking in the light. Seeing what you're doing and where you're going.

Again, one cannot at the same time both continously walk in the light and continue to have all sins cleansed and yet at the same time walk in sin as a sinner, this is just not possible at all.

 

[Danus]

You modified your post, which is the part you don't agree with now?

No bother. I may not have worded it quite the same way, but I agree with your over all interpretation.

 

[BornAgain]

No bother. I may not have worded it quite the same way, but I agree with your over all interpretation.

It is biblical interpretation....but at least we are on agreement.

 

[Deborah13]

Correct. for the most part.


That depends on how you define the anti-Christ.

John describes it simply this way;

1 John 1:23-25
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Anyone who can walk away, fall away, be taken away.....denies Christ;. Simple as that, and the truth is not in them. I will remind everyone the title of this thread "The FALSE Security of eternal security. Meaning simply there is no faith in eternal salvation. For some I do believe that's true, but no one can say that it's false for those who are with God now, and those who will be, and of those who know they will be, it is not by lack of faith, but of full faith. The same faith in Christ that John describes. Those who have a weak faith, or no faith in Christ, should question their salvation.

In 1 John 1:9-10, John gives the description of these ones that he refers to in 2 John 1:7. He calls them deceivers and antichrists, (not the antichrist). Why because they did not receive the doctrine of the Christ, the salvation through Him and Him only. They did not even believe that they had sin let alone that they needed a savior. They rejected the teaching and were in the church teaching false doctrine.
So I agree with you that these people were never saved. I believe there are people in the physical churches now who are not saved. And because of what I see in Heb. 6:4-6 I believe that a saved person could come to a place where they reject the doctrine of Christ. Must they must REJECT it. They just no longer believe it, period. Thus we are brought to John's statement in 1 John 2:23-25.
If you deny (reject) the Son (the doctine of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord) you have not the Father or salvation, period.
So once again I agree with you in that if we if are living a life of total sin with no regret than we should exam ourselves to see if we no longer believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Cassian,

Your personal salvation is possible through the Cross, but your actual salvation depends totally, wholly upon you, your faith, your faithfulness, your desire to be in an relationship now and in eternity with Christ

That is NOT scriptural. Show me where the Scriptures say Jesus Christ's work on the Cross was only a potential salvation, not an actual one. Chapters and verses? You can't, because it is nothing but man's imaginary religious fables. Man insists on being "CO-SAVIOR", rather than giving Christ ALL of the glory!

How do the Scriptures say we become converted?

"Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness ["His goodness;" not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God's 'leading' is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4).

Where is "man's will" in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not man's fabled 'free will.'



"No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: 'drag'] him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

This verse is plain: No man CAN…come to Christ of HIS OWN will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.



"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

"I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ's will, not man's will.



"We are justified by the faith of Christ." (Galatians 2:16)

We are justified by Christ's faith, not ours. We are saved because of His commitment, not ours



"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God [not faith 'IN' the Son of God, but the very faith 'OF' the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Galatians 2:20).

It is not by the 'free will' of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.



"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

According to God's Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: "NOTHING." It is Christ "IN him" that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.



"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11).

Is this man's part in his own salvation? Must man confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord by his OWN FREE WILL, or it will have no real meaning? Is that how this confession is made? Answer: "…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3).

Do we profess Jesus as our Lord by our own will or by the Holy Spirit? "By the Holy Spirit" is the cause. Our own will is not the cause of our calling Jesus "Lord."



"Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE" (Romans 8:7).

The carnal mind is a mind debarred of spiritual understanding. Not only does it not understand spiritual things; it is an impossibility to do so. THE CARNAL MIND CANNOT SPIRITUALLY REPENT! It is in fact, enslaved to sin.



"But the natural man [still being carnal-minded] receives not the things of the SPIRIT of God: neither CAN HE know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:12-14).

God's word tells us that the natural, carnal mind of man, [all mankind—the human race], cannot love or obey God. For it: "receives not the things of the spirit," "neither is it ABLE."

The natural man cannot even make a decision to SEEK God, much less believe and have faith in Christ:

"There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:11)



The natural man has no idea that he even needs God! So, if no one seeks after God on their own, why do some believe and have faith?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that ['that faith'] NOT OF YOURSELVES [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Are we saved through the faith of our own will? NO. Do we do good works by our own will? NO. It is: God's faith, God's gift, God’s Workmanship, God's creating, God's ordaining. The cause is "His workmanship," not our own will.



Do you think you've "achieved" your own salvation yourself by YOUR OWN merit, by your act of believing in Him? If you do, you are boasting:

"For who makes you different from anybody else, and what have you got that was not given to you? And if anything has been given to you, why boast of it as if you had achieved it yourself?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)


According to orthodox Christianity, the cross of Christ never saved anybody; the cross only saves those who decide to be saved. However, a believer cannot claim credit for his or her ability to believe! (Quite true, I'm afraid. Re-read Philippians 1:29 and Romans 12:3. The first verse says that our belief in Christ is graciously granted us, the second that our very faith is a gift).

The Scriptural truth is: It is the cross of Christ that saves, not our acceptance of that cross. Our acceptance is merely the acknowledgment of a fact.

Christendom "says" that God accepts them. But this is subterfuge, because God's acceptance is only potential; it requires reciprocation. If the supplicant fails along this line, then God's "acceptance" is of no more use than the tenuous favor of any other false deity. What is the one requirement of Orthodox Christianity? "Accepting" Christ. One must "believe" in Jesus, or else. Thus, belief becomes a requirement of salvation, and Christianity becomes another works-based religion. In fact, it becomes the most deceptive religion of all.... and IT IS!

Cassian, your reasoning might seem logical to you, and it may be "the popular" belief of orthodox Christianity, but it totally contradicts and flat-out denies countless Scriptures. You continue to proclaim things to be true that are totally contrary to the Word of God.

"There is a way which SEEMS right to a man, But its end is the way of death." (Proverbs 14:12)

• PS - Because of the above post, some may assume I'm a Calvinist, but I am certainly NOT. I believe Calvinists are just as deceived as 99.999% of Christianity - i.e. - those who follow the teachings of Jacobus Arminius (Arminius rejected Calvin's predestination teaching and believed salvation was available to everyone - IF they exercised their free wills and took it - "works"). Though Calvinism recognizes God's absolute sovereignty and is correct in that respect, they have grossly perverted that truth for their own "self-exalting" purposes. They also (like Arminianism) promote the ludicrous doctrine of ETERNAL TORMENT, which is a despicable, demonic lie that maliciously maligns God's character, and is the greatest satanic evil in the history of the world.

 

[Free]

The Scriptural truth is: It is the cross of Christ that saves, not our acceptance of that cross. Our acceptance is merely the acknowledgment of a fact.

Christendom "says" that God accepts them. But this is subterfuge, because God's acceptance is only potential; it requires reciprocation. If the supplicant fails along this line, then God's "acceptance" is of no more use than the tenuous favor of any other false deity. What is the one requirement of Orthodox Christianity? "Accepting" Christ. One must "believe" in Jesus, or else. Thus, belief becomes a requirement of salvation, and Christianity becomes another works-based religion. In fact, it becomes the most deceptive religion of all.... and IT IS!

Cassian, your reasoning might seem logical to you, and it may be "the popular" belief of orthodox Christianity, but it totally contradicts and flat-out denies countless Scriptures. You continue to proclaim things to be true that are totally contrary to the Word of God.

Is it contrary to the following?:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)

Notice the condition "if" placed on doing certain things which will then save someone. What this passages is saying is, if one does not "confess with [their] mouth that Jesus is Lord" and if one does not "believe in [their] heart that God raised him from the dead," then "[they will not] be saved."

The Bible clearly teaches that one must accept the finished work of Christ on the Cross in order to be saved. This contradicts your position. Not to mention the fact that not all will be saved--it even seems the majority won't be saved--strongly supports the idea that one must accept it.

"There is a way which SEEMS right to a man, But its end is the way of death." (Proverbs 14:12)

The same can be said of your post and understanding of Scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

That is NOT scriptural. Show me where the Scriptures say Jesus Christ's work on the Cross was only a potential salvation, not an actual one. Chapters and verses? You can't, because it is nothing but man's imaginary religious fables. Man insists on being "CO-SAVIOR", rather than giving Christ ALL of the glory!

How do the Scriptures say we become converted?

"Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness ["His goodness;" not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God's 'leading' is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4).

Where is "man's will" in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not man's fabled 'free will.'



"No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: 'drag'] him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

This verse is plain: No man CAN…come to Christ of HIS OWN will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.



"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

"I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ's will, not man's will.



"We are justified by the faith of Christ." (Galatians 2:16)

We are justified by Christ's faith, not ours. We are saved because of His commitment, not ours



"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God [not faith 'IN' the Son of God, but the very faith 'OF' the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Galatians 2:20).

It is not by the 'free will' of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.



"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

According to God's Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: "NOTHING." It is Christ "IN him" that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.



"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11).

Is this man's part in his own salvation? Must man confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord by his OWN FREE WILL, or it will have no real meaning? Is that how this confession is made? Answer: "…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3).

Do we profess Jesus as our Lord by our own will or by the Holy Spirit? "By the Holy Spirit" is the cause. Our own will is not the cause of our calling Jesus "Lord."



"Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE" (Romans 8:7).

The carnal mind is a mind debarred of spiritual understanding. Not only does it not understand spiritual things; it is an impossibility to do so. THE CARNAL MIND CANNOT SPIRITUALLY REPENT! It is in fact, enslaved to sin.



"But the natural man [still being carnal-minded] receives not the things of the SPIRIT of God: neither CAN HE know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:12-14).

God's word tells us that the natural, carnal mind of man, [all mankind—the human race], cannot love or obey God. For it: "receives not the things of the spirit," "neither is it ABLE."

The natural man cannot even make a decision to SEEK God, much less believe and have faith in Christ:

"There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:11)



The natural man has no idea that he even needs God! So, if no one seeks after God on their own, why do some believe and have faith?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that ['that faith'] NOT OF YOURSELVES [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Are we saved through the faith of our own will? NO. Do we do good works by our own will? NO. It is: God's faith, God's gift, God’s Workmanship, God's creating, God's ordaining. The cause is "His workmanship," not our own will.



Do you think you've "achieved" your own salvation yourself by YOUR OWN merit, by your act of believing in Him? If you do, you are boasting:

"For who makes you different from anybody else, and what have you got that was not given to you? And if anything has been given to you, why boast of it as if you had achieved it yourself?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)


According to orthodox Christianity, the cross of Christ never saved anybody; the cross only saves those who decide to be saved. However, a believer cannot claim credit for his or her ability to believe! (Quite true, I'm afraid. Re-read Philippians 1:29 and Romans 12:3. The first verse says that our belief in Christ is graciously granted us, the second that our very faith is a gift).

The Scriptural truth is: It is the cross of Christ that saves, not our acceptance of that cross. Our acceptance is merely the acknowledgment of a fact.

Christendom "says" that God accepts them. But this is subterfuge, because God's acceptance is only potential; it requires reciprocation. If the supplicant fails along this line, then God's "acceptance" is of no more use than the tenuous favor of any other false deity. What is the one requirement of Orthodox Christianity? "Accepting" Christ. One must "believe" in Jesus, or else. Thus, belief becomes a requirement of salvation, and Christianity becomes another works-based religion. In fact, it becomes the most deceptive religion of all.... and IT IS!

Cassian, your reasoning might seem logical to you, and it may be "the popular" belief of orthodox Christianity, but it totally contradicts and flat-out denies countless Scriptures. You continue to proclaim things to be true that are totally contrary to the Word of God.

"There is a way which SEEMS right to a man, But its end is the way of death." (Proverbs 14:12)

• PS - Because of the above post, some may assume I'm a Calvinist, but I am certainly NOT. I believe Calvinists are just as deceived as 99.999% of Christianity - i.e. - those who follow the teachings of Jacobus Arminius (Arminius rejected Calvin's predestination teaching and believed salvation was available to everyone - IF they exercised their free wills and took it - "works"). Though Calvinism recognizes God's absolute sovereignty and is correct in that respect, they have grossly perverted that truth for their own "self-exalting" purposes. They also (like Arminianism) promote the ludicrous doctrine of ETERNAL TORMENT, which is a despicable, demonic lie that maliciously maligns God's character, and is the greatest satanic evil in the history of the world.

• 1 John 5:16
  
  King James Version (KJV)
  
  16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
  

It seems to me that John makes it very clear that there is a sin unto death. Read Heb 6:4-6. The Holy Spirit is withdrawn and they can't be brought once again to repentence. They have rejected the doctrine of Jesus Christ. In order to have rejected it you must have first spiritually received it. So that elimanates OSAS as taught by Calvin. Obviously if you can reject it you must have receive it.
It also eliminates "works that are performed by our self righteousness, as if we have any". Arminian works doctrine. Heb. teaches that it is not that this person described has fail in works. They have rejected the doctrine of Jesus Christ.



"ludicrous doctrine of ETERNAL TORMENT, which is a despicable, demonic lie that maliciously maligns God's character, and is the greatest satanic evil in the history of the world."

So I ask you, what do you purpose happens to the souls of the people who reject the doctrine of Jesus Christ?

I am a simple person, please explain in plan english without using many theologic terms that I have to look up to comprehend. I know this is possible because I have to do it all the time.

 

[Cassian]

The above is nothing more than another 'packaged theological set' that your particular group insists that others bow to.

Yes, Christians, Christ's Church, was given by the Holy Spirit to the saints in the beginning. The teaching of the Incarnation and the salvfic content has not changed from the beginning. It is God's revelation to man as He gave it, not according to the best interpretation of man.

Very disconnected logic on that one as well.

Faith comes to individuals.

All men have a measure of faith. When they hear God's word, in any form they can reject it or accept it through that faith.

To what extend they may perceive the matters is the only question. Everyone by faith perceives some form of 'effect' of same at a minimum to themselves as an individual. And to other individuals they may have no perception given to the matters whatsoever.

I would agree that our perceptions vary, but the actions and effects of same are not changed by our varying perceptions.

If only they buy into your particular package of these matters. Others will be reluctant to crawl into a box constructed by some supposedly infallible group of sinners who supposedly have the only correct perception.

Man allways has a rationalization to the Truth. Man does not like the Truth because they prefer darkness. To say that the Holy Spirit is fallible says a lot about you.

Again, you merely present a boxed theological set that is proposed as thee only set available to perceive.

That is how it was given. ONE Truth, given by the Holy Spirit. Not ever has it been taught that there are many truths, depending on man's interpretation.

[/quote]Some will see that effort as problematic by virtue of limited impositions of sight.

Again, that is only how your group happens to see things and nothing more. There may in fact be more or other things to see and perceive.[/quote] not unless you can show by some evidence that the Holy Spirit has given additional revelation above that which was given to the Apostles.

[/quote]You set a 'model' and demand that others conform to that particular model or else.[/quote] I think that is what Christ meant, when He states that the only way to be saved is through Him. Never does it say anything about being saved through the best intellectual interpretation from a text.

And of course you can't even see the conflicts in your own model, claiming on one hand that Christ saved no one in particular yet saved people in particular.

no conflicts at all. The conflicts are in your perception and understanding.

Even in postulating 'another way' and then the perception of 'another way' you also show that there are in fact an abundance of ways to reflect on these matters.

ONLY one way is given in scripture. ONLY man has devised hundreds of other ways.

I would really have to say that any such claims by nature can not be Perfect Sight. Paul for example never claimed perfect sight and vision from his own statements and that those who see 'accurately' will take the factual seat of having imperfect sight presently. Those who claim to see and to have the whole enchilada on every matter would to me be instantly disqualified based on such claims.

more unsubstantiated rationalizations to benefit the mass of confusion man has created.

Paul took joy even with Christ preached in pretence.

I might 'reflect' that Paul had more trust in Christ than in the imperfect purveyors of any given boxed set programs.

s

Which is seems that I have explained it precisely as they taught it and as it has always been understood. I don't see any refutation of what I stated based on the Apostles teachings.

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

First let me say that I am not saying, and I don't believe that is what Mitspa is saying either, is that we received our salvation at the Cross. That is nonsense. However, he paid a debt that I could not pay and that is personal!

but the same debt was paid for every single human being. That debt was the condemenation of death through Adam. All men will be raised in the last day because of Christ's Incarnation and resurrection of our mortal human nature. This is stated in I Cor 15:13-22, then again in vs 53.

It is personal in that no human being will be lost to death. John 6:39. Christ gave life, a physical existance to the world and to mankind. No man will be dissolved into dust through death.

Secondly, He also perfected a sacrifice to atone for the sin of the world. He atoned for sin, so that those that do believe can have their sin forgiven in order to be and remain reconciled to God through faith.

A person came to your town and paid off all the debts that everyone in your town owed and that included your's. He did it to accomplish something in your town that he wanted to see your town accomplish that was in his plan. Would you say, oh he did that for everybody so I just happen to be included in his plan? Or would you still be grateful that he had paid your debt? You still could move to another town and move yourself out of his plan or you could stay and live out his plan. It's up to you. It doesn't change the fact that he paid the debt.
The problem with using examples that are demonstrated using wordly elements is that just that, they are worldly. They do not consider the the spiritual.

this does not even touch on the relational aspect of our salvation. This example is what I explained above. The only difference with yours is that as you state, a person would be grateful, which does not exclude the gift, but it does recognize that you believed it, thus according to scripture you are justified, and can enter into the relationship with Christ. But simply entering does not save you individually.

Being saved by Christ from death and sin, is not addressing your personal salvation which is in a relationship with Christ by and through faith.