R
rrowell
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But only if they follow him (obey him) where is the security if they apostatize?
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The False Security of Eternal Security
- Thread starter Ernest T. Bass
- Start date
But only if they follow him (obey him) where is the security if they apostatize?
R
rrowell
Guest
John 10:26-28 (KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Those that believe Him not are NOT his sheep, "His sheep hear His voice" in other words they "obey" Him and only those who "obey Him" He gives unto them eternal life, He does NOT give eternal life to those who do not OBEY Him.
Done Deal
Danus,
I have already answered this one, but apparantely you did not read it. Please explain where future eternal security is even stated or implied in this text. It is written in the present tense, active. It only applies to the present time. If you read it every day and do what it says every day, then you will have eternal life. The problem is man has not been able to do that day in and day out. Many have fallen by the wayside for many reasons.
The texts below show from scripture that one must maintain, must keep, must abide, must stay holy and blameless, thus be continually righteous in order to inherit eternal life. That eternal life is conditional on what we do with God's Grace.
Below is just a sampling of many more texts that all speak to conditional salvation. Some will show that one loses grace, others are warning that we must continue to endure in order to obtain the promises.
All speak of doing something in order to have eternal life...None speak of any kind of salvation that is guaranteed, and surely not by faith only, or belief only. The texts show the evidence of belief and faith. James 2:24 is precisely the text one needs to sink OSAS as scriptural.
One additional note: OSAS believes that one is saved by faith alone. They will also refer to it as simple faith. Yet the Bible never speaks of faith alone, in fact, James 2:24 says the very opposite. Because they use this phrase, they also state that the opposite should be faith plus works. Yet that is not what the Bible states either. Just because they have adopted a view of faith only, the opposite is not necessarily faith plus works. What does the Bible actually say? We are saved by Grace through faith. The misunderstanding and false interpretations come about in describing just what that faith entails. For the Christian faith is not the end but the means to an end. The walk of faith is what salvation is all about. It is our relationship with Christ, maintained by faith.
Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Explanation Part of the meaning of the word saved, from the Greek word sozo, is to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgement. The word that Jesus Christ spoke will judge in the last day (John 12:48). This being saved is clearly conditional. We must endure to the end. To endure means to remain, not to recede or flee, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, to bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. It's the same word here: If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us - 2 Timothy 2:12. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will deny us.
Matt 24:24,25 - "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand." Explanation: The word deceive also means to cause to stray, lead aside from the right way, to sever or fall away from the truth, to be led away into error and sin. That is definitely the loss of salvation because it means to be severed or fallen away from the truth. They will stray and be led aside from the right way. They will be led away into error and sin. Some people want to think this Scripture means that it is not possible when He said "if possible," but Christ would not have said this just to be playing games with us by there being no way it can happen. The word for beforehand also means to say before the event: prophecies. This was Christ telling us that it would happen. So don't be deceived that you can't be deceived, or then you may wind up one of those who do in fact get deceived.
Matt 25:1-13 - This is the parable of the 10 virgins. Five of whom were not prepared for His coming and were not ready. If we become lazy, slack, wayward, even departing at any time, we will be lost if Christ comes before we repent. Watch, pray and be on guard.
Matt 25: 14-30 - This is the parable of the Good Stewards. Same story. These are all members of the Kingdom of God. One enters by faith, but that faith must be sustained, commited to the end. If we do not use what Christ has provided for us, if we misuse it, or reject it either knowingly or because of disregard, we shall lose our inheritance, eternal life with Christ.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Explanation: The key is to observe His commands, then He is with us always, but we can't rebel against God and honestly think we're still going to heaven. That would be living in a dreamworld, and not according to the truth.
Mark 13:13 - “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.†Explanation: These words come from Jesus. This is not an Apostle saying this. It is clear that one needs to remain firm, endure, be steadfast, to be saved in the end.
Luke 8:11-15 - JESUS then explained THE PARABLE of THE SOWER- Jesus said, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved (Note: These people do not become believers after they hear the word of God, but the others next do believe and get born again, but they lose their life in Christ and fall away because of sin). But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while (Note: For a time they were born-again believers. It's the common word for believe, pisteuo. They had saving faith but temptations of this earth caused them to depart.... fall away (Note: They had been set free from sin, but they didn't resist the temptation when they were enticed to sin. The word for fall away means they depart, desert, withdraw, fall away, whichever definition you choose to use, from having life in Christ. They became faithless. They got that way because they fell for the temptation of sin.)" The people who say that the ones who fall away were not real believers contradict God's word, because it clearly says they believed for a while. Plus you can't fall away from something if you were never with it to begin with.
"Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity." They had entered into a life with Christ; but while seeking where that life would lead them, their fruit did not mature. They got choked. It means to choke utterly the seed of the divine word sown in the mind. Riches (wealth, abundance of external possessions) and pleasures (lust) is what caused it.
"But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it (Note: The word for keep means hold fast, keep, stay in regards to from going away. This is our personal responsibility to continue to believe the word of God and to stay faithful to Him) and bear fruit with patience." The word for patience more correctly means enduring, perseverance, the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings. To be saved at the end, you must persevere while bearing good fruit. Jesus made it clear that a true believer produces good fruit, and that the human will is involved in remaining a believer, since He says we must keep it and persevere. Christ proves here that no one is eternally secure no matter what they do.
Luke 9: 62 - But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Within the context of this story it is speaking about undivided commitment. Our commitment to Christ must be whole, 100%, continuous, and not half-hearted or that we could split our allegiance. One either serves God or mammon. When we begin to look back or divide our loyalty we begin to slide down the slippery slope of falling away. No place in this story is there any indication that God guarantees that man will continue to follow obediently. That work is totally ours to do. We are completely free to choose and to change our minds for whatever reason. God created us specifically in His Image with an independent will to choose to obey or not to obey and be commited to Him, if we serve Him at all.
Mark 13:13 - “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.†Explanation: These words come from Jesus. This is not an Apostle saying this. It is clear that one needs to remain firm, endure, be steadfast, to be saved in the end.
John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.". Explanation: This is a straight forward text. Some people don't know what the word for believe means. It is not simple belief as the devil believes, but it means to be committed unto. Therefore, this believing in Jesus Christ is not a one-time deal and it's all over with. You must be committed unto Him or else you are no longer a believer. A Christian can stop believing. A Christian can wind up no longer committted unto Christ. For some have already turned aside after Satan - 1 Tim. 5:15. This text is one of the most often used to support OSAS, and it sinks it from the get-go.
I would not worry about either God or anything plucking you from Christ. But woe to that man who rejects Christ having once tasted of the heavenly gift, who were once enlightened and became partakers of the Holy Spirit. Where is the gurantee man has against himself? We are in a mutual relationship. YOu as a believer have an obligatory responsibility and a committment to a promise you made, I assume you made a promise to faithfully live according to his will. YOu renege on your committment, Christ is not going to save you in spite of yourself.
If so, He would save every human being since that is what He desires. But your salvation, the salvation of ones soul is dependent on your will and desire.
The word snatch also means pluck, to seize, carry off by force. This is talking about anyone besides yourself. When you lose something or give it away, it is not considered that you snatched or plucked yourself. It requires the action of someone else, besides yourself, to have something snatched out. But concerning our own actions, some have already turned aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15).
Those people aren't following Christ anymore. They have condemnation because they have cast off their faith (1 Tim. 5:12).
There is never a separation of justification and sanctification. Protestants tend to put things into little boxes and each is considered separately with no connection between them. That is why they maintain that the justification is permanent, though the sanctification does not need to be permanent. One simply falls out of fellowship but remains justified. However, very simply, if we become disobedient, fall from grace, lose our faith, we also lose our justification, since we are justified by faith. Loss of faith, loss of justification. Sanctification is the evidence of that faith. See the Book of James. It is practical salvation.
John 15:1,2 - Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away..." This is someone in Christ who gets taken away because they did not bear fruit. The word for fruit means that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result; or, work, act, deed; or, praises which are presented to God as a thank offering. This is obviously something a servant of God personally needs to have or else God will take that person away. The word for takes away here means to take off or away what is attached to anything; to remove. So this Scripture is about God removing someone from being in Christ. Clearly, this is about someone losing their salvation.
John 15:6 - Jesus said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered (Note: in order to be cast out, one must first be in Christ); and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Acts 20:28-31- (29)"For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) some will be from their own number.... NOw, why would the writer here be concerned with the flock, if the flock is finitely saved upon a one-time ascent of faith? Obviously, OSAS was not the teaching of the Apostles. Here the warning from outside false teachers, but even of the flock again. Clearly, many will lose faith and fall away including the false teachers from within.
I have already answered this one, but apparantely you did not read it. Please explain where future eternal security is even stated or implied in this text. It is written in the present tense, active. It only applies to the present time. If you read it every day and do what it says every day, then you will have eternal life. The problem is man has not been able to do that day in and day out. Many have fallen by the wayside for many reasons.
The texts below show from scripture that one must maintain, must keep, must abide, must stay holy and blameless, thus be continually righteous in order to inherit eternal life. That eternal life is conditional on what we do with God's Grace.
Below is just a sampling of many more texts that all speak to conditional salvation. Some will show that one loses grace, others are warning that we must continue to endure in order to obtain the promises.
All speak of doing something in order to have eternal life...None speak of any kind of salvation that is guaranteed, and surely not by faith only, or belief only. The texts show the evidence of belief and faith. James 2:24 is precisely the text one needs to sink OSAS as scriptural.
One additional note: OSAS believes that one is saved by faith alone. They will also refer to it as simple faith. Yet the Bible never speaks of faith alone, in fact, James 2:24 says the very opposite. Because they use this phrase, they also state that the opposite should be faith plus works. Yet that is not what the Bible states either. Just because they have adopted a view of faith only, the opposite is not necessarily faith plus works. What does the Bible actually say? We are saved by Grace through faith. The misunderstanding and false interpretations come about in describing just what that faith entails. For the Christian faith is not the end but the means to an end. The walk of faith is what salvation is all about. It is our relationship with Christ, maintained by faith.
Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Explanation Part of the meaning of the word saved, from the Greek word sozo, is to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgement. The word that Jesus Christ spoke will judge in the last day (John 12:48). This being saved is clearly conditional. We must endure to the end. To endure means to remain, not to recede or flee, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, to bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. It's the same word here: If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us - 2 Timothy 2:12. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will deny us.
Matt 24:24,25 - "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand." Explanation: The word deceive also means to cause to stray, lead aside from the right way, to sever or fall away from the truth, to be led away into error and sin. That is definitely the loss of salvation because it means to be severed or fallen away from the truth. They will stray and be led aside from the right way. They will be led away into error and sin. Some people want to think this Scripture means that it is not possible when He said "if possible," but Christ would not have said this just to be playing games with us by there being no way it can happen. The word for beforehand also means to say before the event: prophecies. This was Christ telling us that it would happen. So don't be deceived that you can't be deceived, or then you may wind up one of those who do in fact get deceived.
Matt 25:1-13 - This is the parable of the 10 virgins. Five of whom were not prepared for His coming and were not ready. If we become lazy, slack, wayward, even departing at any time, we will be lost if Christ comes before we repent. Watch, pray and be on guard.
Matt 25: 14-30 - This is the parable of the Good Stewards. Same story. These are all members of the Kingdom of God. One enters by faith, but that faith must be sustained, commited to the end. If we do not use what Christ has provided for us, if we misuse it, or reject it either knowingly or because of disregard, we shall lose our inheritance, eternal life with Christ.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Explanation: The key is to observe His commands, then He is with us always, but we can't rebel against God and honestly think we're still going to heaven. That would be living in a dreamworld, and not according to the truth.
Mark 13:13 - “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.†Explanation: These words come from Jesus. This is not an Apostle saying this. It is clear that one needs to remain firm, endure, be steadfast, to be saved in the end.
Luke 8:11-15 - JESUS then explained THE PARABLE of THE SOWER- Jesus said, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved (Note: These people do not become believers after they hear the word of God, but the others next do believe and get born again, but they lose their life in Christ and fall away because of sin). But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while (Note: For a time they were born-again believers. It's the common word for believe, pisteuo. They had saving faith but temptations of this earth caused them to depart.... fall away (Note: They had been set free from sin, but they didn't resist the temptation when they were enticed to sin. The word for fall away means they depart, desert, withdraw, fall away, whichever definition you choose to use, from having life in Christ. They became faithless. They got that way because they fell for the temptation of sin.)" The people who say that the ones who fall away were not real believers contradict God's word, because it clearly says they believed for a while. Plus you can't fall away from something if you were never with it to begin with.
"Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity." They had entered into a life with Christ; but while seeking where that life would lead them, their fruit did not mature. They got choked. It means to choke utterly the seed of the divine word sown in the mind. Riches (wealth, abundance of external possessions) and pleasures (lust) is what caused it.
"But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it (Note: The word for keep means hold fast, keep, stay in regards to from going away. This is our personal responsibility to continue to believe the word of God and to stay faithful to Him) and bear fruit with patience." The word for patience more correctly means enduring, perseverance, the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings. To be saved at the end, you must persevere while bearing good fruit. Jesus made it clear that a true believer produces good fruit, and that the human will is involved in remaining a believer, since He says we must keep it and persevere. Christ proves here that no one is eternally secure no matter what they do.
Luke 9: 62 - But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Within the context of this story it is speaking about undivided commitment. Our commitment to Christ must be whole, 100%, continuous, and not half-hearted or that we could split our allegiance. One either serves God or mammon. When we begin to look back or divide our loyalty we begin to slide down the slippery slope of falling away. No place in this story is there any indication that God guarantees that man will continue to follow obediently. That work is totally ours to do. We are completely free to choose and to change our minds for whatever reason. God created us specifically in His Image with an independent will to choose to obey or not to obey and be commited to Him, if we serve Him at all.
Mark 13:13 - “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.†Explanation: These words come from Jesus. This is not an Apostle saying this. It is clear that one needs to remain firm, endure, be steadfast, to be saved in the end.
John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.". Explanation: This is a straight forward text. Some people don't know what the word for believe means. It is not simple belief as the devil believes, but it means to be committed unto. Therefore, this believing in Jesus Christ is not a one-time deal and it's all over with. You must be committed unto Him or else you are no longer a believer. A Christian can stop believing. A Christian can wind up no longer committted unto Christ. For some have already turned aside after Satan - 1 Tim. 5:15. This text is one of the most often used to support OSAS, and it sinks it from the get-go.
I would not worry about either God or anything plucking you from Christ. But woe to that man who rejects Christ having once tasted of the heavenly gift, who were once enlightened and became partakers of the Holy Spirit. Where is the gurantee man has against himself? We are in a mutual relationship. YOu as a believer have an obligatory responsibility and a committment to a promise you made, I assume you made a promise to faithfully live according to his will. YOu renege on your committment, Christ is not going to save you in spite of yourself.
If so, He would save every human being since that is what He desires. But your salvation, the salvation of ones soul is dependent on your will and desire.
The word snatch also means pluck, to seize, carry off by force. This is talking about anyone besides yourself. When you lose something or give it away, it is not considered that you snatched or plucked yourself. It requires the action of someone else, besides yourself, to have something snatched out. But concerning our own actions, some have already turned aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15).
Those people aren't following Christ anymore. They have condemnation because they have cast off their faith (1 Tim. 5:12).
There is never a separation of justification and sanctification. Protestants tend to put things into little boxes and each is considered separately with no connection between them. That is why they maintain that the justification is permanent, though the sanctification does not need to be permanent. One simply falls out of fellowship but remains justified. However, very simply, if we become disobedient, fall from grace, lose our faith, we also lose our justification, since we are justified by faith. Loss of faith, loss of justification. Sanctification is the evidence of that faith. See the Book of James. It is practical salvation.
John 15:1,2 - Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away..." This is someone in Christ who gets taken away because they did not bear fruit. The word for fruit means that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result; or, work, act, deed; or, praises which are presented to God as a thank offering. This is obviously something a servant of God personally needs to have or else God will take that person away. The word for takes away here means to take off or away what is attached to anything; to remove. So this Scripture is about God removing someone from being in Christ. Clearly, this is about someone losing their salvation.
John 15:6 - Jesus said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered (Note: in order to be cast out, one must first be in Christ); and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Acts 20:28-31- (29)"For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) some will be from their own number.... NOw, why would the writer here be concerned with the flock, if the flock is finitely saved upon a one-time ascent of faith? Obviously, OSAS was not the teaching of the Apostles. Here the warning from outside false teachers, but even of the flock again. Clearly, many will lose faith and fall away including the false teachers from within.
Danus,
continued..... Part II.
Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Explanation: Can anything be so clear. That is conditional grace to us believing Gentiles. God just might cut you off. So I suggest that you continue in His goodness that led you to repentance (Rom. 2:4), and set you free from the bondage of sin (Rom.6:16-22); or else God just might cut you off from being in Christ. This passage shows the Christian's responsibility to remain in the Lord's goodness in standing by faith.
Your standing by faith certainly implies willful cooperation with God.
John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.†[/quote]
this verse does not refer to being born again, as in by faith and receiving the Holy Spirit. This is the rebirth of Christ on the Cross by which He recreated man, restored mankind back to the Image of God, having life, and eternal existance. It is of those who believe that he gave the power to become sons of God. It is the same reason that the Holy Spirit works in this world calling all men to repentance.
Again, where is the guarantee. The first part of the verse is not even addressing believers. It is addressing the salvation of mankind from death. Christ gave life to the world, to mankind. All men were given eternal existance, all men will be raised in the last day. This text also aligns with John 12:32, as well as the two sequencial texts of John 6;39-40. Vs 39 is about all that was given to Christ Col 1:20 in reconciling the world to God and will raise all things in the last day. Vs 40 is a subset of all, those that see and believe will be raised as well, but will have everlasting life with HIm. Again, nothing about any kind of eternal security, except here it means and eternal existance for every human being as well as the world itself.
the verb is hears and believes which is present tense. NOthing about once hearing and believing and then you are guaranteed eternal life with Christ, no matter what you do.
present tense again. NOthong about the future. In fact, those that believe and then reject Christ will recieve a worse punishment than those that have never believed. ONe cannot take God for granted. We have an obligation in our relationship with HIm. After all, it is why we were created in the first place.
It's all about following Him. Nothing here says follow for a brief moment, then you are guaranteed eternal life. Again the present tense, active. YOu stop believing, God stops saving. Very simple to understand.
But the immediate context is speaking about believers. However, we already know that many believers themselves become false teachers. We also know that many believers discontinue in their faith.
again a definition of a faithful believer. But where is the security? Where does it say that a simple one-time ascent of faith guarantees that a believer cannot fall. I would also say that God also knows who are NOT His.
Is it up to God that you follow HIm. Does it say He will make sure you always follow HIm? Again a present tense verb, active. NOthing about being saved if one does not follow.
Where do you read that Christ is charged with keeping the sheep. We know they can wander off, and He will go out to fiind them. But we also know that if man continues to wander or rejects the efforts of God to bring Him back, he will be cut off. God does not save someone who does not desire to be saved.
Is drinketh in the past tense? If not you have your answer again.
Again, present tense. Where does it say that if we love God for a short time, we will still keep His commandments. or the converse, if we don't keep His commandments, do we love God. Does God abide in one who does not do His will?
Misdirection and misinterpretation here as well.
The entire chapter of John 17 is Christ's High Priestly prayer. It is divided into four parts. Vs 1-5 Jesus is praying for Himself. Vs 6-19 He is praying for His disciples. Vs 20-23 He is praying for His Church. Vs 24-26 He is praying for all others. The only portions that could even apply to any person is either believers or unbelievers, the last two sections. But in none of them is there a guarantee of any kind of eternal security.
There are still hundreds of texts that shows that our salvation all depends on our faith, on being faithful, and enduring to the end. Not a single verse about having any kind of security that a believer cannot fail, that a believer is finitely saved in a moment of time in this life.
1 Corinthians 3:16,17 - Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. Explanation: The word temple is a metaphor. It means the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ. So ourselves are the temple with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. To defile the temple means to lead away from the state of holiness in which you ought to abide. Then God will destroy you and you will perish. Some people want to think the word temple here is only about a church building. But the truth is that the word temple refers to the individual believer just like in 1 Corinthians 6:19. God does not destroy and to make perish a church building. The word states God will destroy him, not it. It is about each of our own individual spiritual lives that God can make perish. If a believer was guaranteed this text is meaningless. Because eternal security is not about what one does, but about a single moment of faith and one is guranteed eternal life with Christ no matter what one does after that moment.
I Corinthians 8:11 - And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? This is in the context of eating idol food and causing a weaker brother to stumble. Obviously, stumbling is a possibility even though this is a Christian brother. Love reigns over knowledge. Not only can a believer fall, but he can cause another believer, a weaker one to fall. Perish does not mean salvation, at least not in scripture.
1 Corinthians 9:27 - " But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." Paul was talking about being disqualified to receive the prize of the imperishable crown (received in eternal life) as the 2 previous verses in explain. It also means reprobate, rejected, not standing the test, not approved, that which does not prove itself such as it ought. Other times the word (the Greek word "adokimos") is used in the NT, it's talking about the lost (2 Cor. 13:5-7 , 2 Tim. 3:8 , Titus 1:16).
So since Paul was aware of the danger of not being approved and becoming lost, we also need to be careful. Paul was being careful when he disciplined himself and brought his body into subjection. That means he made himself to be a slave subject to stern and rigid discipline. Again, we know Paul did not teach any brand of eternal security. YOu can add to that I Cor 10:12. There is no such thing as eternal security in Paul anywhere in scripture.
Another great anti eternal security text of Paul.
So 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. If we don't hold fast, will we be saved. Is it a one time affair and our salvation is set.
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Both books of Timothy are relatively short, but they chock full of anti eternal security teaching.
1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
I Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses
this should suffice but there are many more. It is quite obvious that one must either ignore most of scripture and or redefine the meaning of words to support a theory of "eternal security". There is good reason why it has never existed as a biblical teaching and part of historical Christianity before the Reformation.
continued..... Part II.
Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Explanation: Can anything be so clear. That is conditional grace to us believing Gentiles. God just might cut you off. So I suggest that you continue in His goodness that led you to repentance (Rom. 2:4), and set you free from the bondage of sin (Rom.6:16-22); or else God just might cut you off from being in Christ. This passage shows the Christian's responsibility to remain in the Lord's goodness in standing by faith.
Your standing by faith certainly implies willful cooperation with God.
John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.†[/quote]
this verse does not refer to being born again, as in by faith and receiving the Holy Spirit. This is the rebirth of Christ on the Cross by which He recreated man, restored mankind back to the Image of God, having life, and eternal existance. It is of those who believe that he gave the power to become sons of God. It is the same reason that the Holy Spirit works in this world calling all men to repentance.
Again, where is the guarantee. The first part of the verse is not even addressing believers. It is addressing the salvation of mankind from death. Christ gave life to the world, to mankind. All men were given eternal existance, all men will be raised in the last day. This text also aligns with John 12:32, as well as the two sequencial texts of John 6;39-40. Vs 39 is about all that was given to Christ Col 1:20 in reconciling the world to God and will raise all things in the last day. Vs 40 is a subset of all, those that see and believe will be raised as well, but will have everlasting life with HIm. Again, nothing about any kind of eternal security, except here it means and eternal existance for every human being as well as the world itself.
the verb is hears and believes which is present tense. NOthing about once hearing and believing and then you are guaranteed eternal life with Christ, no matter what you do.
present tense again. NOthong about the future. In fact, those that believe and then reject Christ will recieve a worse punishment than those that have never believed. ONe cannot take God for granted. We have an obligation in our relationship with HIm. After all, it is why we were created in the first place.
It's all about following Him. Nothing here says follow for a brief moment, then you are guaranteed eternal life. Again the present tense, active. YOu stop believing, God stops saving. Very simple to understand.
But the immediate context is speaking about believers. However, we already know that many believers themselves become false teachers. We also know that many believers discontinue in their faith.
again a definition of a faithful believer. But where is the security? Where does it say that a simple one-time ascent of faith guarantees that a believer cannot fall. I would also say that God also knows who are NOT His.
Is it up to God that you follow HIm. Does it say He will make sure you always follow HIm? Again a present tense verb, active. NOthing about being saved if one does not follow.
Where do you read that Christ is charged with keeping the sheep. We know they can wander off, and He will go out to fiind them. But we also know that if man continues to wander or rejects the efforts of God to bring Him back, he will be cut off. God does not save someone who does not desire to be saved.
Is drinketh in the past tense? If not you have your answer again.
Again, present tense. Where does it say that if we love God for a short time, we will still keep His commandments. or the converse, if we don't keep His commandments, do we love God. Does God abide in one who does not do His will?
Misdirection and misinterpretation here as well.
The entire chapter of John 17 is Christ's High Priestly prayer. It is divided into four parts. Vs 1-5 Jesus is praying for Himself. Vs 6-19 He is praying for His disciples. Vs 20-23 He is praying for His Church. Vs 24-26 He is praying for all others. The only portions that could even apply to any person is either believers or unbelievers, the last two sections. But in none of them is there a guarantee of any kind of eternal security.
There are still hundreds of texts that shows that our salvation all depends on our faith, on being faithful, and enduring to the end. Not a single verse about having any kind of security that a believer cannot fail, that a believer is finitely saved in a moment of time in this life.
1 Corinthians 3:16,17 - Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. Explanation: The word temple is a metaphor. It means the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ. So ourselves are the temple with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. To defile the temple means to lead away from the state of holiness in which you ought to abide. Then God will destroy you and you will perish. Some people want to think the word temple here is only about a church building. But the truth is that the word temple refers to the individual believer just like in 1 Corinthians 6:19. God does not destroy and to make perish a church building. The word states God will destroy him, not it. It is about each of our own individual spiritual lives that God can make perish. If a believer was guaranteed this text is meaningless. Because eternal security is not about what one does, but about a single moment of faith and one is guranteed eternal life with Christ no matter what one does after that moment.
I Corinthians 8:11 - And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? This is in the context of eating idol food and causing a weaker brother to stumble. Obviously, stumbling is a possibility even though this is a Christian brother. Love reigns over knowledge. Not only can a believer fall, but he can cause another believer, a weaker one to fall. Perish does not mean salvation, at least not in scripture.
1 Corinthians 9:27 - " But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." Paul was talking about being disqualified to receive the prize of the imperishable crown (received in eternal life) as the 2 previous verses in explain. It also means reprobate, rejected, not standing the test, not approved, that which does not prove itself such as it ought. Other times the word (the Greek word "adokimos") is used in the NT, it's talking about the lost (2 Cor. 13:5-7 , 2 Tim. 3:8 , Titus 1:16).
So since Paul was aware of the danger of not being approved and becoming lost, we also need to be careful. Paul was being careful when he disciplined himself and brought his body into subjection. That means he made himself to be a slave subject to stern and rigid discipline. Again, we know Paul did not teach any brand of eternal security. YOu can add to that I Cor 10:12. There is no such thing as eternal security in Paul anywhere in scripture.
Another great anti eternal security text of Paul.
So 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. If we don't hold fast, will we be saved. Is it a one time affair and our salvation is set.
exhorting the Church not to elect a novice believer lest his pride cause his fall. Condemnation as the devil does not sound like salvation to me.
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Both books of Timothy are relatively short, but they chock full of anti eternal security teaching.
1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
I Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses
this should suffice but there are many more. It is quite obvious that one must either ignore most of scripture and or redefine the meaning of words to support a theory of "eternal security". There is good reason why it has never existed as a biblical teaching and part of historical Christianity before the Reformation.
I think an example of what the Lord states in found in the statement "to deceive even the elect if that was possible" How can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know "Jesus Lives". Also He who is in us in greater then he that is in this world. If the Son sets us free from the power of sin then we are free indeed. If one is not seeking to divorce the Lord then the Lord will remain faithful. But if we deny Him then He will deny us. My Take -Its highly unlikely that one who has a sincere Love and faith for Jesus has received the Spirit of Christ would walk away from that truth. Where would they go? Jesus alone has the words of eternal life. I won't state never lose your salvation but that would take a willful seeking of a divorce from the Lord. Jesus stated those that the Father gives Him (those that listen to the Father and learn from Him) will come to Him and He will never drive them away. And Satan isn't strong enough to snatch them from the Lords hand.
Randy
Ernest T. Bass
Member
They remove themselves from God's hands if they quit hearing and following Christ, Jn 10:27 just as those that quit coming to Christ can be cast out, Jn 6:37
Danus
Member
I've read what you have here. It's the same stuff you have been expressing. It's also inconsistent. You'll say one thing and then turn around and say the opposite in meaning. The problem I'm seeing is that you are bringing a false dichotomy to the table; a false premise that allows you to start an argument from a gross misunderstanding of OSAS.
You are also coming from a weak faith, possibly a said faith. This causes you to understand God's word in a manner that imposes it upon you; that is to say;Forced on you. Put in place, or Sanctioned on your will, rather than God's word being something in exchange for you will.
Because of this, you are missing the greater understanding of God's word. It does not become good news for you but rather something difficult. Something you have to struggle with.
However, I like what you said about the word "believe" and how it's not just some sort of thing we do, but rather a 100% commitment to Christ. This tells me that you clearly understand what it is to believe.
What you don't seem to understand, and I think bothers you the most, is that you feel that this "believing" belief is something that comes from you and not from God to you, and you are unable to fit that into the scriptures I gave you with the 101 points I gave you, and so you end up with paradoxical understanding of scripture.
I'm not here to argue or feel validated in what I believe. My goal for you, and others, is to get you to see your salvation in a way you don't, in a way that allows you to truly trust in Christ 100%, which is what you want, and to stop trying to rely on yourself, but in Christ alone so that you too can be truly secure . You may not ever get to that place. That's fine. I'm not responsible for that, unless I fail to say anything.
You have a gross misunderstanding of my theology, but I understand yours clearly. If you want to win an argument then go ahead. I have offered you the trophy, and I do this for anyone I discuss scripture with, and I see that they will not be turned. That's on them, not me. However, if you want to truly know the saving Grace of God onto you, then let me help you. I'm not asking that you believe me, but rather read and test it for yourself.
What you don't understand is that it is Christ who is doing the work in the saved man, not the saved man. It is Christ maintaining that saved man. It is Christ doing the good work in that saved man, growing his faith and keeping him to the end. This is not to say they we do not have some consciousness in his work in us, or that we just do whatever we want with no consequences. Sin has consequences. Further more, willful sin is evidence of a lack of relationship with Christ. But that is between each man and Christ.
When the bible talks about those who endure, and believe, this is an expression of the new nature of the saved, not some sort of duty on their part, but who they are in their salvation. However, the un-saved, those who do not believe, do not have a real faith given them and do not know this. How could they? They have never experienced it. They can read the words of Christ, but they will mean something else. They will not believe Christ because they do not believe in Christ, but rather in themselves, or their ability.
For example, one of the verses you used, Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." this is the nature and privilege of the saved, not a duty onto those who wish to be saved, and so it takes on a vastly different understanding for those with faith in Christ vs those with a said faith in Christ. You will see this as meaning that YOU must endure on your own without understanding that you will endure though Christ and not yourself.
Let's look at James 2:24. You are saying that this one verse alone sinks the idea that the save are secure in their salvation, and proves there is no guarantee of salvation unless someone earns their salvation by doing good deeds, or in this case works. However, you have expressed little to no faith in Christ. When you say; "I believe today, but I may not believe tomorrow", that is to say that you don't believe today. If Christ says you can not be taken from his HAND! That means, No man can take them from HIM! Those who believe are secure. They trust this and know this. You're not going to develop another schema to replace Christ tomorrow if in fact you believe today. So you can't possible see James 2:24 in it's context because you may in fact be the context.
James is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't show any evidence of the reality of their faith by their works [deeds]. Over, and over again... people will say they have faith, but they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works as a result... The question is, 'A man may say that he has faith, but will that faith justify him?' If it is just a 'said' faithâ€â€”no, it won't! What was true to James is true today.
You can not experience the saving Grace of Christ, the new man, what it means to be born again, the new work in you by Christ, if Christ is not in you by faith and faith alone. Can't do it. Won't happen, and you are left to your own devices. So, what happens when people want faith, but don't accept it is they begin to justify themselves by just trying to be like Christ rather than surrendering to Christ. This is what you have expressed.
Faith is a gift from God to those who will be saved. That gift of faith causes the saved to believe and understand God. It is a new nature unto the saved that those who do not have will not fully know. This is not to say that the saved have an immediate knowledge of Christ and God's word. They may not, but they do get God's word from their faith in a way that others totally don't and can't. They grow in their faith right from where they are in their faith.
What needs to be understood is that all will be judged, but the saved receive MERCY and FORGIVENESS. The un-saved receive justice, and they will get that. They will be judged on how righteous they in fact are, whereas the saved will be judged on how righteous Christ is because their sins have been forgiven.
Let's look at another one of your verses, John 12:48 48 "But all who reject me and my message will be judged on the day of judgment by the truth I have spoken." Notice it says "all who reject me". This is the un-saved, and your absolutely correct that they will receive justice. They receive this because they do not have faith in Christ, but in themselves, and in some cases their ability to follow Christ in their own effort, rather then surrendering to Him. Those are the false Christians you speak of. The ones who do not surrender their own will for Gods, but say they are good and worthy. If you think your not a sinner, you best be starting to identify yourself as one, because that knowledge is what brings us to God.
The next verse you are using to support salvation through works is Matt 25: 14-30,The Parable of the Bags of Gold. In this one your saying that the that those who invested the masters gold earned their salvation so to speak. What you don't understand is that the servant who hid his, did so because he did not have faith. He was afraid. Look at what he says to the Master; "25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you." He gives his gift BACK! He rejected it. The others had faith and where not afraid because they had faith. They invested what they where given because they where not afraid. They made something more out of the less amount given them by their faith and they did it with what they received right where they where.
The next verse you use is Matthew 18:20, "20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age.†I don't know why you are using this one because you have expressed a type of weak faith that would not believe this statement from Christ, because you said that you can walk away from your salvation. How could you possibly believe Christ when he says he's with you? In this verse Christ expresses that He is with us. He dose not say anything about you not being with him in this verse.
Christ has a desire for you. Because you have a desire for him, you have been chosen by God. If you want to obey Christ 100% then you have to trust in Christ 100% because it is Christ in you that allows you to be saved and obey. When you do that, you know you are saved. 100% and nothing can separate you from Christ.
Are you the afraid servant? You seem to be. You indicate you may not be saved tomorrow. God won't like you and keep you unless you do well. Best keep that faith locked up tight and hidden so you don't loose it! ..............Or are you a faithful servant? One who takes the gift given you and grows it without fear. Will God say to you also, "Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ ?
The Gold in that parable represents salvation an teh bible says over and over and over that salvation is by faith. If you think you can loose your salvation then you are burying the faith in Christ that God has given you, just like the servant who buried his gift.
Danus,
If it is a false premise, then explain the premise. And also show why you think it is inconsistant. And where is the false dechotomy.
My faith has nothing to do with the discussion. the arguments or points of what I stated were actually taught by the Apostles to the first century Church. The points I am making has never changed in the last 2000 years.
It is your interpretation. a novel idea introduced 1500 years after the Gospel was given. At that you cannot even show that those who use sola scriputura come to the same conclusion. Added to that, the view has changed or been nuanced by many others over the years, hardly the Gospel once given in the beginning and that has been preserved unchanged for 2000 years.
I would like to see the text that says that God actually believes for me or for any Christian. If that were actually correct, then all men would be soul saved as well, since God desires that all me are saved. This statement is the carryover of the false premise from which you are working, predestination of persons to believe. Another non-scriptural tenent.
I surely wouldn't want to see it the way you do, since I once did believe as you. I searched for the real thing, not some man made theory or opinon of what scripture means.
that really says a lot. It says that at least you do not have the same theology that all Christians had prior to the reformation on this singular issue. It also says that even though Calvin's theology is the root, you may have changed it, redefined it to fit your peculiar philosophy, rather than it being the Gospel once given. Any Christian should be able to describe all christian doctrine the same. If it does not align with the gospel, it must be incorrect. There is ONLY one Gospel, it is the ONE Christ gave in the beginning, which is the one that He is preserving.
all you can offer is your opinion. Hardly constitutes the real Gospel of Christ.
Another assertion of a misunderstanding of scripture. God does no work toward your salvation apart from your own permission, or desire or will. The saved man will be held accountable for his own work, not God's work. God is also not judging what He supposedly did for a person.
there is absolutely no text in all of scripture that says God alone is maintaining a believer.
another false assertion of scripture. There is no text that says God is growing your faith for you, or keeping you in spite of yourself. It is always described as a mutual, synergistic relationship. It takes both man and God to save your soul. I Pet 1:3-5 is the most clear text on this issue. Even Phil 2:13 makes man the decision maker, not God.
The point is that you are not a passive recipient. NOthing happens in you unless you desire it to happen. Then you come to a conclusion which sinks your whole theory of eternal security. The problem is sin, and believers fall into sin, and many do not repent. Thus they lose faith, thus salvation. There is no guarantee from man's perspective, it is a long, difficult struggle to overcome sin in our lives.
It is an obligation, it is required of you IF you are a believer. We may possess salvation by virtue of being IN Christ, but we are not yet heirs until the end if we endure. Any believer can and does lose faith as the 250 texts of scripture clearly state. Yet not a single one every says that man can have a personal guarantee that upon a single ascent of faith, God does all the rest and no matter what we do, we cannot lose salvation.
this is the fallacy not of just your view, but the understanding of both scripture and what I have been saying, and maybe all opponents of "eternal security. YOu beleive it is all of God, and man does not have an active participtory relationship with Christ, thus the converse must be true that if one opposes your view it is because man alone can save himself. Nothing could be more false. The salvation of ones soul is a mutual working out between both God and man. God cannot save you alone, man cannot save himself alone. It is a working out in fear and trembling between man and God. God does nothing unless you desire to have Him assist you, and if you reject that assistance, he will withhold the assistance. There is nothing unilateral in the salvation of ones soul.
First, you keep interjecting either your faith or try to interject my faith into the discussion. We are not discussing our individual faiths. We are discussing what scripture says about being saved. And the word "earn" is also incorrect. It is an obligation, it is expected of you, you were created specifically to do the work.
Did you get paid if you loved your parents? If your parents forced you to love them, is that love? Or is respect, love, obedience obligations in your relationship with your parents?
Needless to say, the above statement has very little content that is meaningful. It is a completely missunderstanding of scripture and of James 2:24.
this statement is a complete contradiction to your stated doctrine of eternal security. We are not judges, but we can have a glimpse into a person by his actions. If a bliever is not bearing good fruit, he may have already fallen. It speaks loud and clear to the falsity of your view of eternal security.
false premise of scripture. All men have a measure of faith. All men were created to have a spiritual link to God, called a conscience. Man must actively work to suppress the natural, God given gifts that all are given. This again stems from your false root premise of predestination and total depravity of man. As well as irresistable grace, maybe even unconditioinal election. NOne of them are found in scripture. They are imposed upon scripture as part of a man made theory.
However, what you are simply ignoring is that many believers have become unsaved, You don't get God mercy and forgiveness if you reject Him as a believer. In fact, your punishment will be greater than one who has never believed.
If they are indeed righteous as unbelievers then they will be saved, but the saved if not righteous will be condemned. Seems you need to switch the whole judgement scene upside down as well. Christ's work does not even come into the picture at the judgement. It is all about what each man did with the gifts, grace given to him to believe, to be joined with Christ.
continued.....
If it is a false premise, then explain the premise. And also show why you think it is inconsistant. And where is the false dechotomy.
My faith has nothing to do with the discussion. the arguments or points of what I stated were actually taught by the Apostles to the first century Church. The points I am making has never changed in the last 2000 years.
It is your interpretation. a novel idea introduced 1500 years after the Gospel was given. At that you cannot even show that those who use sola scriputura come to the same conclusion. Added to that, the view has changed or been nuanced by many others over the years, hardly the Gospel once given in the beginning and that has been preserved unchanged for 2000 years.
I would like to see the text that says that God actually believes for me or for any Christian. If that were actually correct, then all men would be soul saved as well, since God desires that all me are saved. This statement is the carryover of the false premise from which you are working, predestination of persons to believe. Another non-scriptural tenent.
I surely wouldn't want to see it the way you do, since I once did believe as you. I searched for the real thing, not some man made theory or opinon of what scripture means.
that really says a lot. It says that at least you do not have the same theology that all Christians had prior to the reformation on this singular issue. It also says that even though Calvin's theology is the root, you may have changed it, redefined it to fit your peculiar philosophy, rather than it being the Gospel once given. Any Christian should be able to describe all christian doctrine the same. If it does not align with the gospel, it must be incorrect. There is ONLY one Gospel, it is the ONE Christ gave in the beginning, which is the one that He is preserving.
all you can offer is your opinion. Hardly constitutes the real Gospel of Christ.
Another assertion of a misunderstanding of scripture. God does no work toward your salvation apart from your own permission, or desire or will. The saved man will be held accountable for his own work, not God's work. God is also not judging what He supposedly did for a person.
there is absolutely no text in all of scripture that says God alone is maintaining a believer.
another false assertion of scripture. There is no text that says God is growing your faith for you, or keeping you in spite of yourself. It is always described as a mutual, synergistic relationship. It takes both man and God to save your soul. I Pet 1:3-5 is the most clear text on this issue. Even Phil 2:13 makes man the decision maker, not God.
The point is that you are not a passive recipient. NOthing happens in you unless you desire it to happen. Then you come to a conclusion which sinks your whole theory of eternal security. The problem is sin, and believers fall into sin, and many do not repent. Thus they lose faith, thus salvation. There is no guarantee from man's perspective, it is a long, difficult struggle to overcome sin in our lives.
It is an obligation, it is required of you IF you are a believer. We may possess salvation by virtue of being IN Christ, but we are not yet heirs until the end if we endure. Any believer can and does lose faith as the 250 texts of scripture clearly state. Yet not a single one every says that man can have a personal guarantee that upon a single ascent of faith, God does all the rest and no matter what we do, we cannot lose salvation.
another false assertion of scripture based again on a false tenent of Calvinism, total depravity of man combined with predestination of a person to believe. NOthing is scripture supports these assertions. All men have been given all the tools, the gifts, the ability, the capability to respond to God's love, and believe. In fact, God is making sure that no man is missed so that no man will have an excuse that he never had the chance to believe.
this is the fallacy not of just your view, but the understanding of both scripture and what I have been saying, and maybe all opponents of "eternal security. YOu beleive it is all of God, and man does not have an active participtory relationship with Christ, thus the converse must be true that if one opposes your view it is because man alone can save himself. Nothing could be more false. The salvation of ones soul is a mutual working out between both God and man. God cannot save you alone, man cannot save himself alone. It is a working out in fear and trembling between man and God. God does nothing unless you desire to have Him assist you, and if you reject that assistance, he will withhold the assistance. There is nothing unilateral in the salvation of ones soul.
First, you keep interjecting either your faith or try to interject my faith into the discussion. We are not discussing our individual faiths. We are discussing what scripture says about being saved. And the word "earn" is also incorrect. It is an obligation, it is expected of you, you were created specifically to do the work.
Did you get paid if you loved your parents? If your parents forced you to love them, is that love? Or is respect, love, obedience obligations in your relationship with your parents?
Needless to say, the above statement has very little content that is meaningful. It is a completely missunderstanding of scripture and of James 2:24.
this statement is a complete contradiction to your stated doctrine of eternal security. We are not judges, but we can have a glimpse into a person by his actions. If a bliever is not bearing good fruit, he may have already fallen. It speaks loud and clear to the falsity of your view of eternal security.
It is remote from what I stated. It is simply your false rationalization to support a false premise of eternal security. It is the typcial straw man developement which is always easy to knock over, but does nothing in support of the premise.
false premise of scripture. All men have a measure of faith. All men were created to have a spiritual link to God, called a conscience. Man must actively work to suppress the natural, God given gifts that all are given. This again stems from your false root premise of predestination and total depravity of man. As well as irresistable grace, maybe even unconditioinal election. NOne of them are found in scripture. They are imposed upon scripture as part of a man made theory.
However, what you are simply ignoring is that many believers have become unsaved, You don't get God mercy and forgiveness if you reject Him as a believer. In fact, your punishment will be greater than one who has never believed.
If they are indeed righteous as unbelievers then they will be saved, but the saved if not righteous will be condemned. Seems you need to switch the whole judgement scene upside down as well. Christ's work does not even come into the picture at the judgement. It is all about what each man did with the gifts, grace given to him to believe, to be joined with Christ.
continued.....
Danus,
continued...part II.
because it depends on doing what we are commanded. If we don't do what we are commanded, then God is not going to be with you. very simple to understand. YOu just had an unfaithful servent, who did not do what He was commanded, and God banished him, was not with Him. Follow scripture, it is very clear.
VEry true, but many do not keep that faith, let alone 100% just like the unfaithful servant, the five foolish Virgins, or the Prodigal Son, or the two middle examples of the parable of the Sower.
The key word in your statment is "because you have a desire for him". But man cannot guarantee that desire will always remain, which is why there is no such thing as eternal security based on a one-time ascent of faith. It is a continuous journey. It matters from beginning to end what you do.
It is not about me. It is about that unfaithful servent. The wording, the use of the word "servant" clearly states it is a believer, not an unbeliever who would not be a servant of a master.
Justification is by faith, salvation is through faith. There is a huge difference between those phrases. And you are very correct that a believer who buries the gifts and does his own will rather than the will of God will be cast out. Branches without fruit are pruned and burned. It cannot be more clear that there is no such thing as "eternal security" in this life for a believer, especially based on faith alone and a one-time ascent of faith alone. All unscriptural statements.
YOu have failed to refute the texts I quoted, but you have also failed to show any support for a notion of eternal security in scripture without the man-made bias and false assertions regarding scripture.
Let me ask a simple question. Do you know what is the scriptural definition of a believer?
continued...part II.
your wording belies you whole theory. It is contradictory here. Scripture never gives the reason, the specific sin or sins that causes a believer to fall, but your description here is exactly that. A believer, a Christian that did not increase his faith, did not mature, but fell away. YOu have all kinds of examples in scripture and many of the texts I quoted speak directly to this phenonomon.
YOu should read what the subject is of this context. Christ is comparing this with His Kingdom. See vs 1. This is the Body of Christ, this is all about believers. The person who hid it was lazy, and did not even take the small measure he was given to increase it. He buried it. God took it from Him and cast him into hell. I don't think "outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth is salvation. But He was clearly a believer. Unless you are going to posit that unbelievers are also in the Kingdom of God, His Body.
because it depends on doing what we are commanded. If we don't do what we are commanded, then God is not going to be with you. very simple to understand. YOu just had an unfaithful servent, who did not do what He was commanded, and God banished him, was not with Him. Follow scripture, it is very clear.
VEry true, but many do not keep that faith, let alone 100% just like the unfaithful servant, the five foolish Virgins, or the Prodigal Son, or the two middle examples of the parable of the Sower.
The key word in your statment is "because you have a desire for him". But man cannot guarantee that desire will always remain, which is why there is no such thing as eternal security based on a one-time ascent of faith. It is a continuous journey. It matters from beginning to end what you do.
It is not about me. It is about that unfaithful servent. The wording, the use of the word "servant" clearly states it is a believer, not an unbeliever who would not be a servant of a master.
Justification is by faith, salvation is through faith. There is a huge difference between those phrases. And you are very correct that a believer who buries the gifts and does his own will rather than the will of God will be cast out. Branches without fruit are pruned and burned. It cannot be more clear that there is no such thing as "eternal security" in this life for a believer, especially based on faith alone and a one-time ascent of faith alone. All unscriptural statements.
YOu have failed to refute the texts I quoted, but you have also failed to show any support for a notion of eternal security in scripture without the man-made bias and false assertions regarding scripture.
Let me ask a simple question. Do you know what is the scriptural definition of a believer?
Again how can one who has the Spirit of Christ in them deny that truth? Jesus lives. I won't state never but do state highly unlikely. I am very secure in my salvation and God's faithfulness.
Jude
24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Randy
ezra
Member
that sums it up *
might i add eternal security is about placing your faith in Christ. what about people who per say was once in church serving etc. then left to return no more? i don,t know chances are they may not of been saved. i do not agree %100 with the southern baptist on eternal security.. but i will go to bed tonight saved and wake up still saved*heymikey80
Member
Lost. Not reprobate, lost.
No, I'm not. That's the third error you've made on this attempt to characterize my position. Now, you've said I owe you an apology; but it seems you're thrice in the hole to me.
Are you saying you've repented of all sins you have ever committed? Even the one you're embracing right now, but will repent of, tomorrow? Clearly you haven't repented of every sin, so the condition is not satisfied.
What I'm saying is that a Christian occupies a life of faith, in which he relies on God for his salvation, and thus enters into a life of self-aware examination and repentance from those things the Spirit of God brings him to.
And therefore, there is no condition of complete repentance -- there is repentance as the Spirit leads, and any unled repentance is likely wrong, being premature and impatient, or delayed and recalcitrant.
That is how Paul can say, "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first"
And, "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
And "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Lost is lost and Paul was not a lost sinner.
Heymickey80 said:
This your unsubstantiated opinion. No bible verse says "there is no condition of complete repentance". If such false notion were the case, then what unrepented sins can one be be saved in? What unrepented sins will one carry with him into heaven? Paul and Peter said the Christian is to be holy, blameless and spotless. John said those that continue to walk in the light Christ's blood continues to cleanse away ALL, not some but ALL sins.
That is how Paul can say, "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first"
And, "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
And "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."[/QUOTE]
In the context of 1 Tim Paul said in v13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. "
Paul describes his sinful actions as a thing he did in the past, not now. When Paul says I am the chief of sinners, he is expressing a present, continued remorse he had for his sinful acts in the past.
Rom 6:11 a Christian as Paul is dead to sin, so one cannot be at the same time both dead to sin and a sinner.
1 Cor 11:1 if Paul was a sinner then Christ was too.
heymikey80
Member
Lost from ...?
So you consider yourself either lost or completely repented. Which?
Not everything is soteriology. Not everything is something to do in order to be saved. In fact that Paul and Peter are speaking to Christians shows they are not holy, blameless, spotless, but commending this way to them.
John said if we are confessing our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
He's forgiving us of sins. Are you saying we didn't sin? Why then forgive? Are you saying we don't have the sin? Why then forgive? Are you saying we didn't turn from sin? Are you saying you didn't realize turning from sin is "repentance"?
So, to my assertion: God's forgiving us of something. And we are turning from that sin, otherwise the forgiveness is vacuous. Turning from sin is "repentance", quintessentially. And we are in the process of sin, confession, repentance, and forgiveness.
Then Peter came near to him asking, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him -- seven times?' Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven."
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Lost as in not saved.
HeyMickey80 said:
There is no middle ground. Rom 2:5 no salvation for the impenitent.
How can the Christian be perfect, holy, blameless and spotless Eph 1:4 2 Pet 3:14 Mt 5:48 if he is also a sinner?
HeyMickey80 said:
Again from Eph 1:4 2 Pet 3:14 and Mt 5:48 if one is not holy, blamlesss, spotless and perfect then he is not a Christian.
Paul said he was holy Eph 3:5
In 1 Thess 2:10 Paul said "Ye [are] witnesses, and God [also], how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:"
Phil 3:15 Paul said "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded:..."
Rom 6:1,2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Why would Paul hypocritcally admonish others not to continue in sin when he, as you erronously think, lived in sin himself?
Was Paul dead to sin or was he a sinner living in sin?
1 Cor 15:34 "Awake to righteousness, and sin (imperative) not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame."
Why would Paul command others to sin not when he himself, according to you, was a sinner?
Could a sinner as Paul live up to 1 Jn 3:6,9 ?
Was Paul of the devil, 1 Jn 3:8 ?
HeyMickey80 said:
Christians do sin but that does not make them lost sinners.
A sinner is one who lives in sin, it is a way of life yet the Christian may sin on occasion, sinning is not a way of life, sin is not something the Christian walks in.
To the Ephesians Paul wrote "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,...Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Eph 2:2,3
In times past the Ephesians were lost sinners who walked in sin, who's conversation/way of life was sinning. But now as Christians they no longer sin as such. Were the Ephesians perfectly sinless? No, they as all Christians would sin occasionally but they could not go back to their former life of walking in sin, living in sin and still be saved.
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heymikey80
Member
Both "lost" and "saved" express a previous condition. Y'can't be "lost" without having first been a part of what was lost.
Ultimately, yes. Or are you saying no one today is in a middle ground, not lost, not saved?
"To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood" Rev 1:5"this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
heymikey80
Member
Neither. He was at once righteous and sinner. As has been demonstrated in case after case, the reality of the situation is that we're still sinning, and thus still sinners.
The moral direction of our lives is the process of putting away sin. To reject that would be to reject Christ.
However, the fact is we're still sinners, who still sin, and are still in the process of being cleansed from sin. Examination of 1 John, of how Paul sees himself, of Jesus' description of the Gospel of repentance & forgiveness, of regeneration and resurrection, they all converge on this conclusion.
God is good. We are not. We are forgiven, and being transformed. We aren't there yet.
Adullam
Member
This is the typical false view of modern Christendom...it rejects the power of grace as a means to overcome sin. Whatever is of God is perfect. The natural state of a true Christian is to be clean, spotless, since it is the blood of Christ that purifies him. I know the argument that uses this cleanness as a semantic....as if God were fooled and our sins were hidden from the sight of God. But is the death of Christ a semantic???? IS the purity of Christ just an idea? So they who abide in Christ are as He...without sin.
Of course IF we sin in the course of our training, Jesus is there to cleanse us again to the place of the divine fellowship and presence of God.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Not possible to both be righteous and a sinner. In Rom 6:16 Paul said each one serves either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.
Jn 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."
Sinners are the ones who do not do God's will.
Rom 5:19 1 Tim 1:9
Mt 9:13 "But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
There is a distinct difference between the righteous who repent and and are saved and sinners who are impenitent and lost. A Christian who occasionally sins does not make him an impentent lost sinner.