The False Security of Eternal Security

[smaller]

Smaller,
precisely, but it is based on scripture which is the context this discussion.

No, it's based on both of our mutually and TRUTHFULLY admitted partial sights.

I acknowledge the fact that my sights are partial and I don't 'demand' that other believers bow only to my partial understandings OR ELSE see them burned alive forever. That seems to be your real gig. I consider that to be a trap that you and your sect fell into.

I see what I see for what it's worth 'to me.' If you see something different you'll have to sort out your own values and gains or losses in those sights.

I am more than willing to take 'my chances' away from the very limited sights of your sect as I can see they are no more than sinners as I am regardless and they all factually see just as I do, only IN PART.

It is based on the historical evidence of the meaning of scripture.

Oh please. Historical evidence of what? That this is a wicked world filled with sinners having partial sights? Were I to even think to build on that it would seem quite a shaky foundation to me and HISTORY has born this reality out today.

Any sect can claim their history of imperfect men with partial sights have the whole enchilda. Their dead rituals and demands for sole authority don't interest me all that much quite frankly as exactly none of these authoritarians can even speak truthfully about their own conditions of part sights and being sinners. They all think that only THEY and their sect are perfect in each and every way.

lol.

It is based on the historical witness of the work of the Holy Spirit in time as scripture states. It is based on the fact that the Gospel as it was given has not changed in 2000 years.

I consider that the entirety of what we need was delivered long before your 'sect' showed up to take sole self prescribed claims.

N.T. matters were in fact already delivered to the Jews of the Old Testament and the Holy Spirit showed these matters to the Apostles. But these matters were already there to be seen IN FAITH BY FAITH to begin with.

The Lord Himself elected to REVEAL those matters to them.

We have plenty of 'revealing' on the table already to deal with presently.

History also shows that man has attempted to impose his interpretations upon God's revelation to man but none have suceeded.

As if your sect is one bit different? No.

It can just as easily be seen that many in faith will be taken away from orthodox dead rituals and false understandings by the Holy Spirit.

which is not true for me. But being born into something or not born into something else is immaterial when it comes to Christianity.

Again, your 'chances' of being E.O. are strongly related to where you are born in the world and into which family. This is the makeup of most of that particular sect just as it is in any other sect. It's common sectarianism.

Why I chose to do so is also immaterial.

Well, obviously you chose to go that way. Good luck to ya. And may you continue in your quest to burn all other believers alive in fire forever who don't believe 'like Cassian.' I am sure God in Christ will be most pleased by that engagement. NOT.

We are discussing what scripture means, what the revelation that was given to man by the Holy Spirit means.

Apparently in your eyes it can only be what you see. Sorry to not see identically to you. One of us doesn't condemn the other. That would be me. I will not enter your gate of condemnations to other believers. It is against my conscience to do so, and I will have to answer to God in Christ for my own internals. Your sect is not able to do that for me no matter how many magic ritual wands they may try to waive over my head.

If the Apostles did not really believe that what was given to them was actually correct and perfect, then why would they have taught it to the early Church.

If it's there then it's there to be seen and had in their words then it's there regardless of many exclusive authoritarian claimants that come along to try and lord it over others in order to threaten to burn them alive forever.

And NO, Paul did not make claims to seeing ONLY PERFECTLY either.

Paul, by his own words saw only in part, had admitted evil present with him, even a devil in his flesh and was by his own lips the chief of sinners post salvation.

I prefer to listen to believers who speak honestly to me and to tell you the truth none of your sectarians can go as far as Paul did. Not a one. They all sell themselves 'religious insulation' and 'religious cloaking devices' over simple and open facts and nothing more.

Why would the Holy Spirit give man incorrect and imperfect revelation?

And if that same revelation reveals the readers to be imperfect and apart from perfect understandings why would you expect perfection in any of that revelation?

There is nothing wrong with standing honestly under that revelation.

Christ thought it important that everyone believe on Him as He requires in His revelation.

I am certainly willing to accept ALL of His Words. Every last one of them. When I need a substitute I'll look you up.

The choice to believe as He states is necessary is solely up to every individual.

And that is only your opinion. I do not believe your particular slants on these matters are accurate. Not that it would make any difference to you anyway. You have been sold a certain set of partialist facts and you chose to align yourself with those partialist sights. It's nothing more than that.

On this particular matter it can be just as easily seen as follows:

A. the god of this world blinds the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor. 4:4)
B . God ALLOWS and even CAUSES by His Sole Election for some to be blind and to continue in blindness (Romans 11:8)
C. God can even save those so blinded, even enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to the Jews in Romans 11:25-32.

And your particular sect will deny ALL of the above and blame only the MAN.

I say such sights can not run the gauntlets of scriptural facts and are therefore requests to DENY HIS WORDS. I don't have to go there. Sorry. Denial is not my favorite form of faith practice nor are substitution partial sights that can NOT account for the above, and those are just some minor examples of many examples.

You however are free to throw away those insights. It really doesn't matter to me. Reflect how you will.

Paul also accounted for the fact that believers not only can but WILL see matters differently and allowed for that, which I do as well. Some believers will gather up and worship on Saturday, some on Sunday. Some will eat pork, some will not.

Over time these various sights became aligned with each others, with each sect thinking only their views right. And that is where we landed today.

History also shows that more people have rejected Christ and His gospel than accepted it. Many men have devised their own philosophies rather than accept His Gospel as He revealed it to man.

Again, you and I are going to reflect differently on many matters. I am inclined to measure a very large benefit of doubt to far more than you can see as that is the direction that His Word has led me to measure.

Other 'believers(?) will damn believers to burn alive forever over not spelling Jesus' name correctly. I just say they have very very limited views. It does however happen everyday.

What happened to these believers who damn other believers to burn alive forever for incorrect name spelling of Jesus? They FELL presently just as you fell with a different set of 'measures.' I certainly don't think Jesus abandoned them or you.

I believe there are enemies and they are real and their fruit or non fruit is very obvious in my eyes. They are fallen warriors who have died on the battle field presently and were taken into wrath and damnation to other believers. I fell sorry for such people. But they and their fruit are GONE presently and they have turned into megalomaniacs who think they and or their SECT are GOD, able to promote other believers burning alive forever by such petty nonsense.

You and the Roman Catholics have been trying to burn each others alive in fire forever over four little words for centuries now.

You're not going to get over it in this present life until you see the utter futility in such measures and you may not see them in this present life. That is simply where God left you for now.

I would say that in the context of eternal matters your conflicts are relatively immaterial to me, personally and that there are more interesting things to be concerned with. There is no need for me to play those kinds of games. They are for blind people to play.

You can tell me that kind of drivel has some value to you and that if I don't enter into that forray with you I too will burn alive forever.

I say you just have really limited sights in your own mind that you have to deal with. If you think you are always and thee only Eternal Right you'll have to convince God of your Perfect Visions when you see Him.

Good luck.

s

 

[farouk]

As well as having Scripture evidence of eternal security, it is the task of the Holy Spirit to apply the assurance to the heart of the believer. Not just theorizing, but living in the light of it, depending on the Person and work of Christ, as led of the Spirit.

 

[reba]

Slight snarky personal jabs are creeping into this thread. Please hear this warning and watch your phrasing. Thanks reba

 

[farouk]

I think at this juncture, reading the end verses of Romans chapter 8 would be relevant, starting at: 'For I am persuaded...', until the end of the chapter.

 

[Cassian]

smaller,

No, it's based on both of our mutually and TRUTHFULLY admitted partial sights.

what our sights might be is immaterial as well. It is what the Gospel has meant historically and how it has been preserved by the Holy Spirit. It is a matter of faith in believing the Gospel once given, rather than man's best judgement of personal interpretations of a text.

I acknowledge the fact that my sights are partial and I don't 'demand' that other believers bow only to my partial understandings OR ELSE see them burned alive forever. That seems to be your real gig. I consider that to be a trap that you and your sect fell into.

then why even attempt to contribute anything because it becomes meaningless which is quite obvious in your remarks.
It would be quite strange to say that the Apostles would not assume that what they were teaching was correct and that they might be teaching something imperfect. Christ seems to demand that we as believers teach His Gospel as He gave it. Paul reminds Timothy to do the same remembering all that he was taught. It would be quite hypocritical of them if they didn not actually believe what they were teaching. I cannot imagine Paul teaching that there are other views regarding Christ that are just as valid as his view that his was his best personal judgement.

It is an act of love that any Christian would point out the errors of those not in Christ or with incorrect udnerstandings so that they would not suffer loss, hell in other words. Why do you think we were commanded to teach His word, His Gospel?

By any rationalization that you have made, preaching, teaching, all missionary work is pointless because we cannot possibly be teaching Truth. Sounds very much like satan's philosophy to me. Make sure the Gospel of Christ is reduced to frivolity and meaninglessness. Much better, every man develop his own brand of religion based on his best interpretation of a text. Sounds like you fit right in with humanism, securlarism, relativity, and individual religions.

Oh please. Historical evidence of what? That this is a wicked world filled with sinners having partial sights? Were I to even think to build on that it would seem quite a shaky foundation to me and HISTORY has born this reality out today.

but that is the point. Believing on Christ's Gsopel one does not need to build their own. YOu are a faithful sola scripturists who does see the meaninglessness of man's invented theories and doctrines. YOu have accepted a world of manufactured theories based on a text instead of the Word itself. YOur every remark is based on that futility.

History has born out the confuson and division within the protestant milieu. Ins't any wonder you have no solid ground to stand on.

Any sect can claim their history of imperfect men with partial sights have the whole enchilda. Their dead rituals and demands for sole authority don't interest me all that much quite frankly as exactly none of these authoritarians can even speak truthfully about their own conditions of part sights and being sinners. They all think that only THEY and their sect are perfect in each and every way.

Yes, they can, but that is why historical records are valid. One can actually be a Berean and check what men say about scripture and what the Holy Spirit has preserved unchanged in 2000 years. That it has not changed surely is not due to man's efforts. We know that human nature is the same from one age to another. Yet, we can also see that when man is his own authority and places his authority over scripture we can get hundreds of new ideas, theories, religions. We have 500 years of this myopic growth and it is just expanding expoentially. I can see why you are confused and why you cannot see Truth.

I consider that the entirety of what we need was delivered long before your 'sect' showed up to take sole self prescribed claims.

more rationalizations again, wild assertions with no evidence. Sounds atypical.

N.T. matters were in fact already delivered to the Jews of the Old Testament and the Holy Spirit showed these matters to the Apostles. But these matters were already there to be seen IN FAITH BY FAITH to begin with.
The Lord Himself elected to REVEAL those matters to them.

We have plenty of 'revealing' on the table already to deal with presently.

Yes, He did indeed. We have them even today. However, you don't believe that. YOu don't choose to believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to preserve His Gospel as it was given to the Apostles.

It can just as easily be seen that many in faith will be taken away from orthodox dead rituals and false understandings by the Holy Spirit.

You are quite misguided if you think that just being Orthdox makes one guaranteed saved. That might fit for some protestant views, but not scripture.

Again, your 'chances' of being E.O. are strongly related to where you are born in the world and into which family. This is the makeup of most of that particular sect just as it is in any other sect. It's common sectarianism.

more rationalizations totally unfounded and inapplicable to me for sure.

Well, obviously you chose to go that way. Good luck to ya. And may you continue in your quest to burn all other believers alive in fire forever who don't believe 'like Cassian.' I am sure God in Christ will be most pleased by that engagement. NOT.

believing that all people will be saved no matter what they believe makes anything you say quite meaningless anyway. However, it is a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling that modern man needs to develop to make him comfortable. After all, if one believes everyone is saved, then any view or form of man's religions is just man's panacea and has no eternal effect upon him.

Apparently in your eyes it can only be what you see. Sorry to not see identically to you. One of us doesn't condemn the other. That would be me. I will not enter your gate of condemnations to other believers. It is against my conscience to do so, and I will have to answer to God in Christ for my own internals. Your sect is not able to do that for me no matter how many magic ritual wands they may try to waive over my head.

More meaningless rationalizations that don't have any bearing on the discussion.

If it's there then it's there to be seen and had in their words then it's there regardless of many exclusive authoritarian claimants that come along to try and lord it over others in order to threaten to burn them alive forever.
And NO, Paul did not make claims to seeing ONLY PERFECTLY either.
Paul, by his own words saw only in part, had admitted evil present with him, even a devil in his flesh and was by his own lips the chief of sinners post salvation.
I prefer to listen to believers who speak honestly to me and to tell you the truth none of your sectarians can go as far as Paul did. Not a one. They all sell themselves 'religious insulation' and 'religious cloaking devices' over simple and open facts and nothing more.

I can see your confusion. If what we recieved from Paul, inspired revelation, in not complete, and is in question, then none of us have any hope of actually believing correctly. Then I would also believe that any view I can develop on my own will pass just a well as any other mans view. Man has a way of not interpreting scripture correctly when it is based on his own intellect. A Gospel that he was never taught in the first place, then 2000 years this person attempts to develop what it might have meant from a mere text. A text which is actually the witness to the Truth that was given.

And if that same revelation reveals the readers to be imperfect and apart from perfect understandings why would you expect perfection in any of that revelation?

but this is the fallacy of your whole view. You seem to think that Christ's Gospel is dependent on man. ON what man can see, on what man can intepret. It has never depended on man. It has only every depended on the power of the Holy Spirit, in giving it and in preserviing it. We know what happens when man asserts his own authority over scripture. We have 500 years of that history as well.

I am certainly willing to accept ALL of His Words. Every last one of them. When I need a substitute I'll look you up.

up to this point you have not given any evidence that you do. YOu mock Him, You have blasphemed His power to preserve Christ's Gospel. YOu believe that man is what is most important in deriving his own understanding from a text rather than from the entire Gospel as given in the beginning to the Apostles, who taught the early Church.

I say such sights can not run the gauntlets of scriptural facts and are therefore requests to DENY HIS WORDS.

then you give evidence finally that man is far superior to the Holy Spirit. It is man that determines what the words of a text mean rather than what was given in the beginning. And then the circle begins, your view vs as many other views of man who disagrees with your peculiar version.

Hardly the Gospel once given. But atypical again of a true sola scripturists. Man is supreme in his own authority.

Paul also accounted for the fact that believers not only can but WILL see matters differently and allowed for that, which I do as well. Some believers will gather up and worship on Saturday, some on Sunday. Some will eat pork, some will not.[/quotre] Really? Is this the best you can. Even at that it is a misstatement of the context.

Over time these various sights became aligned with each others, with each sect thinking only their views right. And that is where we landed today.

that has happened only in the protestant milieu during the last 500 years. I think you should actually study history with more insight and care.

Again, you and I are going to reflect differently on many matters. I am inclined to measure a very large benefit of doubt to far more than you can see as that is the direction that His Word has led me to measure.

Other 'believers(?) will damn believers to burn alive forever over not spelling Jesus' name correctly. I just say they have very very limited views. It does however happen everyday.

What happened to these believers who damn other believers to burn alive forever for incorrect name spelling of Jesus? They FELL presently just as you fell with a different set of 'measures.' I certainly don't think Jesus abandoned them or you.
I believe there are enemies and they are real and their fruit or non fruit is very obvious in my eyes. They are fallen warriors who have died on the battle field presently and were taken into wrath and damnation to other believers. I fell sorry for such people. But they and their fruit are GONE presently and they have turned into megalomaniacs who think they and or their SECT are GOD, able to promote other believers burning alive forever by such petty nonsense.
You and the Roman Catholics have been trying to burn each others alive in fire forever over four little words for centuries now.

more rationalizations without any evidence again. Lots of unfounded innuendo and unsubstantive assertions. All you are really saying it that all views of any religion is valid and man is the king over what he not just decides to believe, but also in developing his own religion and all are valid.

You're not going to get over it in this present life until you see the utter futility in such measures and you may not see them in this present life. That is simply where God left you for now.

I would say that in the context of eternal matters your conflicts are relatively immaterial to me, personally and that there are more interesting things to be concerned with. There is no need for me to play those kinds of games. They are for blind people to play.

You can tell me that kind of drivel has some value to you and that if I don't enter into that forray with you I too will burn alive forever.

I say you just have really limited sights in your own mind that you have to deal with. If you think you are always and thee only Eternal Right you'll have to convince God of your Perfect Visions when you see Him.

Again, you are great in explaining your philosophy of life and religion, but it has very little to do with scripture. I don't happen to hold that all men will be saved no matter what we do on this earth. That believing in Christ is more than just a name, a moniker one can use to put ligitamacy in ones religion. Christ would not have been so specific about His revelation, if it did not matter to Him.
Christ's Gospel will still be the same 2000 years from now if He taries that long. Man will have his competing philosopies as well. Scripture states that the end times will see an influx of new fables, theories of man. ONe wonders what could be more than we already have.

 

[smaller]

smaller,
what our sights might be is immaterial as well.

Then why are you bothering?

It is what the Gospel has meant historically and how it has been preserved by the Holy Spirit. It is a matter of faith in believing the Gospel once given, rather than man's best judgement of personal interpretations of a text.

Every handler has had 'interpretive' sights of these matters from the beginning. Church history is filled with personal interpretations.

Even Paul saw matters that were difficult to perceive and understand by other Apostles as well. It's not like this is an unusual phenom.

It would be quite strange to say that the Apostles would not assume that what they were teaching was correct and that they might be teaching something imperfect.

You apparently missed the point that a very large part of said teachings/revelation is the fact that none of us are perfect.

Why you expect perfect understandings from teachings that we are in fact imperfect is beyond me. It's a fallacy that doesn't exist in the text.

Christ seems to demand that we as believers teach His Gospel as He gave it.

Fine. Then it's given. What you or I may make of same will obviously vary.

The claim that every understanding must be sifted through only your sect is just a claim you'll have to deal with. I understand the fact already that exactly zero of your sectarian handlers have perfect understandings of these matters. If they claim they do then they can live with their own fantasies that belie the obvious.

I doubt you've run your every thought through their sifters either. In fact if you read anything of early church handlers you'll find a great deal of diversity in their reflections, some seeing much better than others. Some not seeing much at all.

Varying degrees of understandings are also shown to be a fact in the scriptures and are in fact also promised by Jesus Himself. Think parables of the talents for example.

Paul reminds Timothy to do the same remembering all that he was taught. It would be quite hypocritical of them if they didn not actually believe what they were teaching. I cannot imagine Paul teaching that there are other views regarding Christ that are just as valid as his view that his was his best personal judgement.

What Paul wrote and how Paul is understood will also vary. Sorry, it's just a fact.

It is an act of love that any Christian would point out the errors of those not in Christ or with incorrect udnerstandings so that they would not suffer loss, hell in other words. Why do you think we were commanded to teach His word, His Gospel?

Spin your intentions however you please. Your bottom line is obvious as to intentions. You ain't the first guy who says to believe only like you or fry alive forever. I reject such notions as pridefully grandiose.

By any rationalization that you have made, preaching, teaching, all missionary work is pointless because we cannot possibly be teaching Truth.

Any sect makes rationalizations. Your leap into worthlessness is just that. A leap. Love from God in Christ to us and from us to others can and does certainly exist apart from your doctrinal sets.

Sounds very much like satan's philosophy to me.

Oh, you mean I must damn other believers outside your sect to possibly burn alive forever?

No thanks Cassian. I've taken a pass from such understandings. You are welcome to wallow in same.

Make sure the Gospel of Christ is reduced to frivolity and meaninglessness.

Spin it how you see it. Doesn't mean your sight is anywhere close to accurate. It's only in what you think you see. To you there is nothing possible outside your group. I see more life than that little funnel.

Much better, every man develop his own brand of religion based on his best interpretation of a text. Sounds like you fit right in with humanism, securlarism, relativity, and individual religions.

Even within sectarian understandings there are an abundance of variations and variants of views so that game doesn't play with me either.

but that is the point. Believing on Christ's Gsopel one does not need to build their own. YOu are a faithful sola scripturists who does see the meaninglessness of man's invented theories and doctrines. YOu have accepted a world of manufactured theories based on a text instead of the Word itself. YOur every remark is based on that futility.

I consider false authoritarianism to be just as void and just as made up as any other groups of men constructs.

History has born out the confuson and division within the protestant milieu. Ins't any wonder you have no solid ground to stand on.

Oh please spare me your historical analysis. If theology is only based on studies of history of sinning men then it is what it is, a study of sinning men, most of whom like to pretend otherwise. That is how the RCC wound up with an infallible sitter in the chair of St. Peter. Nothing more than a demand for power over everyone else.

To some people following Paul as he followed Christ will take them into other facts that many men can't seem to deal with as previously noted.

If the pope of the RCC or your top honcho had to preamble their own speakings as Paul did, stating evil present was with them, that they had a devil in their flesh and that they ARE the chiefs of sinners I suspect most of the memberships would walk out the door. I don't expect to hear those same kinds of facts spoken by authoritarian rulers who like their power seats. Paul shows a different seat for those who are led to see same. One far lower. So did Christ.

Yes, they can, but that is why historical records are valid.

History of men is a history of issues. Nothing more. Scriptures explain 'why' we all have such issues. And the issues haven't changed from day 1 of Adam.

One can actually be a Berean and check what men say about scripture and what the Holy Spirit has preserved unchanged in 2000 years.

Uh, no. In your group you will eat only what they stuff down your throat, period. You couldn't have a legitimate alternative view if you wanted to.

That it has not changed surely is not due to man's efforts. We know that human nature is the same from one age to another. Yet, we can also see that when man is his own authority and places his authority over scripture we can get hundreds of new ideas, theories, religions. We have 500 years of this myopic growth and it is just expanding expoentially. I can see why you are confused and why you cannot see Truth.

If the light hasn't dawned on you yet that men by nature of our imperfections are going to factually have different reflections you just have to look around you. Even in your sect there are various seats of disagreements and divisions. One would have to be blind to NOT see this fact. Constantinople requests patience and seeks to settle longstanding problems, and other bishops just want to throw the RCC under the bus regardless.

There will be no settling of these matters. As long as men are sinners there will be divisions and various degrees of light and understandings, period.

No one makes themselves 'sinless' in this life via 'doctrinal sets.'

more rationalizations

You do not one whit differently. You rationalize for your sect. So what?

Yes, He did indeed. We have them even today. However, you don't believe that. YOu don't choose to believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to preserve His Gospel as it was given to the Apostles.

You hear Gospel and that statement immediately changes in your mind to The Gospel is 'only what my group thinks.'

Again, nonsense. The Gospel is the Gospel and many reflections will be taken from same as history has shown us both.

You are quite misguided if you think that just being Orthdox makes one guaranteed saved. That might fit for some protestant views, but not scripture.

Yeah, it is quite funny to me to see those supposed 'only authorities' of the Gospel and they don't even know if they are saved or NOT. That tells me all I need to know.

"I might be saved" "follow only me" maybe we can celebrate maybe salvation together?

quite funny, such authority.

believing that all people will be saved no matter what they believe makes anything you say quite meaningless anyway.

That topic is off limits here. I relate my posts to what is allowed on the believers scale. But you see to you no one else is a believer except you and your sect.

Just as you hear the term Gospel you ONLY hear 'me and my sect' it is the same with the term believer. You ONLY hear 'me and my sect.'

Some 'believers' get this routine down to 'just themselves.'

That is why you should probably just stick to 'you and your sect' because you all are the only ones with understandings who can dialog on these matters.

The balance of your post is just a rehash.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Cassian]

Then why are you bothering?

Every handler has had 'interpretive' sights of these matters from the beginning. Church history is filled with personal interpretations.

Even Paul saw matters that were difficult to perceive and understand by other Apostles as well. It's not like this is an unusual phenom.

You apparently missed the point that a very large part of said teachings/revelation is the fact that none of us are perfect.

Why you expect perfect understandings from teachings that we are in fact imperfect is beyond me. It's a fallacy that doesn't exist in the text.

Fine. Then it's given. What you or I may make of same will obviously vary.

The claim that every understanding must be sifted through only your sect is just a claim you'll have to deal with. I understand the fact already that exactly zero of your sectarian handlers have perfect understandings of these matters. If they claim they do then they can live with their own fantasies that belie the obvious.

I doubt you've run your every thought through their sifters either. In fact if you read anything of early church handlers you'll find a great deal of diversity in their reflections, some seeing much better than others. Some not seeing much at all.

Varying degrees of understandings are also shown to be a fact in the scriptures and are in fact also promised by Jesus Himself. Think parables of the talents for example.

What Paul wrote and how Paul is understood will also vary. Sorry, it's just a fact.

Spin your intentions however you please. Your bottom line is obvious as to intentions. You ain't the first guy who says to believe only like you or fry alive forever. I reject such notions as pridefully grandiose.

Any sect makes rationalizations. Your leap into worthlessness is just that. A leap. Love from God in Christ to us and from us to others can and does certainly exist apart from your doctrinal sets.


Oh, you mean I must damn other believers outside your sect to possibly burn alive forever?

No thanks Cassian. I've taken a pass from such understandings. You are welcome to wallow in same.

Spin it how you see it. Doesn't mean your sight is anywhere close to accurate. It's only in what you think you see. To you there is nothing possible outside your group. I see more life than that little funnel.

Even within sectarian understandings there are an abundance of variations and variants of views so that game doesn't play with me either.

I consider false authoritarianism to be just as void and just as made up as any other groups of men constructs.
Oh please spare me your historical analysis. If theology is only based on studies of history of sinning men then it is what it is, a study of sinning men, most of whom like to pretend otherwise. That is how the RCC wound up with an infallible sitter in the chair of St. Peter. Nothing more than a demand for power over everyone else.

To some people following Paul as he followed Christ will take them into other facts that many men can't seem to deal with as previously noted.

If the pope of the RCC or your top honcho had to preamble their own speakings as Paul did, stating evil present was with them, that they had a devil in their flesh and that they ARE the chiefs of sinners I suspect most of the memberships would walk out the door. I don't expect to hear those same kinds of facts spoken by authoritarian rulers who like their power seats. Paul shows a different seat for those who are led to see same. One far lower. So did Christ.

History of men is a history of issues. Nothing more. Scriptures explain 'why' we all have such issues. And the issues haven't changed from day 1 of Adam.

Uh, no. In your group you will eat only what they stuff down your throat, period. You couldn't have a legitimate alternative view if you wanted to.

If the light hasn't dawned on you yet that men by nature of our imperfections are going to factually have different reflections you just have to look around you. Even in your sect there are various seats of disagreements and divisions. One would have to be blind to NOT see this fact. Constantinople requests patience and seeks to settle longstanding problems, and other bishops just want to throw the RCC under the bus regardless.

There will be no settling of these matters. As long as men are sinners there will be divisions and various degrees of light and understandings, period.

No one makes themselves 'sinless' in this life via 'doctrinal sets.'
You do not one whit differently. You rationalize for your sect. So what?

You hear Gospel and that statement immediately changes in your mind to The Gospel is 'only what my group thinks.'

Again, nonsense. The Gospel is the Gospel and many reflections will be taken from same as history has shown us both.

Yeah, it is quite funny to me to see those supposed 'only authorities' of the Gospel and they don't even know if they are saved or NOT. That tells me all I need to know.

"I might be saved" "follow only me" maybe we can celebrate maybe salvation together?

quite funny, such authority.

That topic is off limits here. I relate my posts to what is allowed on the believers scale. But you see to you no one else is a believer except you and your sect.

Just as you hear the term Gospel you ONLY hear 'me and my sect' it is the same with the term believer. You ONLY hear 'me and my sect.'

Some 'believers' get this routine down to 'just themselves.'

That is why you should probably just stick to 'you and your sect' because you all are the only ones with understandings who can dialog on these matters.

The balance of your post is just a rehash.

enjoy!

smaller

It is quite obvious you hold nothing of importance from scripture except your personal interpretation, but also will accept anyone's elses interpretation. Why not, it is clearly your view that all will be saved inspite of anything that one might believe. You have a great philosophy but nothing appears to have any scriptural support.

On the topic of eternel security you have actually denied both sides, so one must assume that there is yet a third side, namely yours which you are unwilling to share, or maybe you have which is, it does not matter. Which makes scripture irrelevant as being any kind of Truth.

Hopefully some day the Holy Spirit will move you to see the Gospel as it was given in the beginning and you will deny your man made theories.

 

[Mitspa]

YOu fail to realize that scripture does not take its meaning from your experience.

Secondly, you have yet to address the assertion you made regarding being saved from the Cross. YOu posted texts that have no evidence of you being saved by the Cross as an individual. The last one is based on faith again, and the fact that He makes intercession for believers. Obviously, a believer was not saved on the Cross then.

Yes it does!

Rom 10:9



That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10



For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11



For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Its very simple

Rom 8:16



The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[smaller]

It is quite obvious you hold nothing of importance from scripture except your personal interpretation,

Not much different that what you do under the sect flag.

The larger observation however is that by faith I await in hope of The Perfect One upon whom and from whom I will receive a perfect reflection.

And I certainly view my fellow believers through that same hope and NOT to their detriments.

Therein our current reflections vary.

but also will accept anyone's elses interpretation.

If I see that another has legitimate, beneficial and truthful reflections, I can not help but align therein and have done so and expect to do so again.

Exactly zero of us step into the arena of faith with full and perfect understandings. Growth in Grace is also shown. I expect that trust in God in Christ also plays a large role and I do have trust in Him and not in myself.

Why not, it is clearly your view that all will be saved inspite of anything that one might believe. You have a great philosophy but nothing appears to have any scriptural support.

Already said I won't be baited into that subject. Sorry.

My understandings align better with determinism. I believe all vessels of honor will be saved and all vessels of dishonor, not. Do your own math from there.

On the topic of eternel security you have actually denied both sides,

Oh please. I have stated repeatedly in this thread and others here that those who call upon the Lord by faith for salvation shall be saved, period.

Where we might see from there are just matters of theological interest and variations.

Nice try though!

so one must assume that there is yet a third side, namely yours which you are unwilling to share, or maybe you have which is, it does not matter. Which makes scripture irrelevant as being any kind of Truth.

When a mans hearing of any term as we note with yours is that the meanings are ONLY as 'me and my sect says' it is problematic to communicate isn't it?

You see in the self justified world of orthodoxy they only hear their own hollow words for the meanings of any term. As if they themselves are the sole owners and definers not only of terms like LOVE and ETERNAL MERCY but the sole determinants of what those things are to live in.

Again, just more pale reflections. If they truthfully said they don't know everything I'd be more inclined to listen to those who speak truthfully.

Truth will remain that we all see like Paul. In part. And that's a fairly simple truth to understand. The orthies forgot that one.

s

 

[Cassian]

Yes it does!

Rom 10:9



That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10



For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11



For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Its very simple

Rom 8:16



The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you were saved by the Cross as an individual, then why is this verse saying that you are not saved unless you believe in your heart?
Surely, you are not suggesting that Jesus believed in your heart for you on the Cross?

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:11

again, this verse nor the context of this verse says that you are saved individually from the Cross. It says that you must believe and confess with your mouth which us unto salvation. Where is the Cross in this text?

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Its very simple

I don't see it here either. If you are saved on the Cross, why does scripture say one must believe in order to be saved.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

How does one become a child of God. By the Cross or by faith?


You have given no support to your assertion that you were saved as an individual from the Cross. They all say you are being saved by and through faith.

 

[Cassian]

Not much different that what you do under the sect flag.

The larger observation however is that by faith I await in hope of The Perfect One upon whom and from whom I will receive a perfect reflection.

And I certainly view my fellow believers through that same hope and NOT to their detriments.

Therein our current reflections vary.

If I see that another has legitimate, beneficial and truthful reflections, I can not help but align therein and have done so and expect to do so again.

Exactly zero of us step into the arena of faith with full and perfect understandings. Growth in Grace is also shown. I expect that trust in God in Christ also plays a large role and I do have trust in Him and not in myself.

Already said I won't be baited into that subject. Sorry.

My understandings align better with determinism. I believe all vessels of honor will be saved and all vessels of dishonor, not. Do your own math from there.

Oh please. I have stated repeatedly in this thread and others here that those who call upon the Lord by faith for salvation shall be saved, period.

Where we might see from there are just matters of theological interest and variations.

Nice try though!

When a mans hearing of any term as we note with yours is that the meanings are ONLY as 'me and my sect says' it is problematic to communicate isn't it?

You see in the self justified world of orthodoxy they only hear their own hollow words for the meanings of any term. As if they themselves are the sole owners and definers not only of terms like LOVE and ETERNAL MERCY but the sole determinants of what those things are to live in.

Again, just more pale reflections. If they truthfully said they don't know everything I'd be more inclined to listen to those who speak truthfully.

Truth will remain that we all see like Paul. In part. And that's a fairly simple truth to understand. The orthies forgot that one.

s

YOu are so wrapped up on man's reflections, man's interpretations you assume everything is based on man's assumptions. I have never even implied that man is even involved including me. It is not about what I percieve, or you percieve or believe. It is what does the Bible say. What has it always meant from the beginning. What it says and what it means has always been of the Holy Spirit. Even Paul never ascribed his teachings or his faith to himself. The fact that you say that Paul did not see himself as perfect tells a lot of how you understand scripture. Paul was not even speaking about knowledge in that text, but about his faith. His knowledge of the Gospel was perfect, otherwise we are all confused and there is no such thing as Truth. Living a faith is not what we are even speaking about.

You have been quite clear that you do not believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit actually gave all Truth to the Apostles. That scriptures says that they as part of the beginning Church, the foundation of that Church, would be guided into all Truth and that the Holy Spirit would not ever depart them.

Now, either we can believe what scripture says, or we can deny what scripture says. YOu have taken the sola scriptura position that man determines what it means and any truth they arrive at is acceptable, better if it aligns with your personal interpretation. YOu have also carried over from your RCC days that revelation is progressive and developmental. Yet scripture denies both of these as well.

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with how great a faith one has or how imperfect that faith might be. The fact of the matter is that our faith is in something. That something is Truth. Truth is Christ. It is His Gospel we are speaking about, not how perfect or imperfect ones faith might be.

You are certainly welcome to believe anything you desire, even your own personal interpretations of a text. But that does not change what scripture has always meant, as confirmed by history, through the authentic power and witness of the Holy Spirit. What you believe or what I believe will not change what scripture means and will mean in all the years to come until He returns.

You clearly have placed yourself, your own interpretation of a text above that of the Holy Spirit. You also stated that if someone comes close to your interpretation you will acknowledge that they have done so and would be in accord with scripture, meaning your interpretation of scripture.

 

[smaller]

YOu are so wrapped up on man's reflections, man's interpretations you assume everything is based on man's assumptions.

Yeah, I guess I could fall into the trap that your sect has perfect reflections on every matter. Would probably prefer a good fantasy book.

I have never even implied that man is even involved including me.

Yeah, I've seen you float that statement. If you are not 'involved' with faith you really couldn't grasp eternal security.

It is not about what I percieve, or you percieve or believe.

Then the same measure can be laid on any member of your sect.

What exactly is your point in retracting believers from interactions with God in Christ anyway?

Seems quite a bit weird.

It is what does the Bible say. What has it always meant from the beginning. What it says and what it means has always been of the Holy Spirit. Even Paul never ascribed his teachings or his faith to himself. The fact that you say that Paul did not see himself as perfect tells a lot of how you understand scripture. Paul was not even speaking about knowledge in that text, but about his faith.

What faith? It might seem that if Paul was not involved whatever he had to say would be quite irrelevant. Your statement again.

"I have never even implied that man is even involved including me"

And if this is true in your eyes, your involvement is a moot point as well. To the point of no point whatsoever.

Weird. Just weird.

His knowledge of the Gospel was perfect, otherwise we are all confused and there is no such thing as Truth. Living a faith is not what we are even speaking about.

We will differ on that matter. Paul never claimed to have 'attained' nor to see in full.

If you want to claim part sight as Perfect I'd say Paul himself made no such claims. If Paul had any revelation it was on matters of his own shortcomings.

You have been quite clear that you do not believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit actually gave all Truth to the Apostles.

There is certainly a great case laid out for future Perfection. To say that was in their 'here and now' however is certainly NOT the case nor it is NOW.

One would have to be blind to miss the facts of future promises that were NOT then and are NOT now as this is yet unfulfilled.

That scriptures says that they as part of the beginning Church, the foundation of that Church, would be guided into all Truth and that the Holy Spirit would not ever depart them.

Well, welcome to the eternal security camp!

Now, either we can believe what scripture says, or we can deny what scripture says.

I deny ZERO scripture. I certainly deny many spins on same as just partial reflections on same inclusive of my own reflections.

Why? Because of the obvious. NO ONE is presently Perfect.

Your sect is welcome to take that seat. I consider such squatters liars.

YOu have taken the sola scriptura position

And of course you in your very last statement said the exact same thing:

"Now, either we can believe what scripture says, or we can deny what scripture says."

Nope. No logical fallacy in your mouth is there? Nope.

that man determines what it means and any truth they arrive at is acceptable,

If a believer arrives at the factual conclusion from scriptures that they see in part and are not presently perfect that would to me be both truth and totally acceptable as same.

Your preference is what? Believe a lie instead?

better if it aligns with your personal interpretation.

It is no 'personal interpretation' that none of us are perfect and that we all see only in part inclusive of your sects honchos. They and you however don't seem to like that fact.

Even an unbeliever can come to this factual conclusion. It's a very low threshold, this fact. Even unbelievers for example know they are lawless when they break the law i.e. are IMPERFECT/SINNERS and when the admit this fact they are being TRUTHFUL to the scriptures disclosures.

YOu have also carried over from your RCC days that revelation is progressive and developmental. Yet scripture denies both of these as well.

Uh, yeah. To some extent it obviously is. To what extent is subject to discussions. Progressive sight is very often old sight REVEALED.

Grace, faith and mercy were for example written in the law, but the Jews did NOT perceive same as the Spirit revealed to the Apostles. Every N.T. principle was already written in the Old, but their understanding was NOT OPENED to them until the time to reveal same.

That is the essence of progressive revelation.

Luke 10:24
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

That clearly speaks to 'progressive sight.'

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with how great a faith one has or how imperfect that faith might be.

Of course it is. If the claim is that there is no eternal security apart from your sects supposed PERFECT SIGHT that notion should be pretty well dispelled.

God saves SINNERS. He also resists the PROUD.

The fact of the matter is that our faith is in something.

Oh? You mean that faith that you are not even involved in? Your quote again:

"I have never even implied that man is even involved including me"

One might think that if you are not even involved your eternal security is certainly not based on YOU.

Welcome again to the eternal security club!

That something is Truth. Truth is Christ. It is His Gospel we are speaking about, not how perfect or imperfect ones faith might be.

Oh? So you would see again that imperfect faith may indeed be sufficient?

Welcome again to the eternal security club!

You are certainly welcome to believe anything you desire, even your own personal interpretations of a text.

The text stands just fine. Reflections on same from IMPERFECT reflectors are another matter.

But that does not change what scripture has always meant,

Never said otherwise.

as confirmed by history,

As confirmed by God in Christ through His Word. As stated prior the study of history is in fact a study of sinners with imperfect sights. You are welcome to believe past the obvious or that the history of your sect is PERFECT.

History and fact will both say otherwise. Every authority in your sect if they were or are truthful admit they are NOT perfect and are SINNERS.

If they didn't or don't I certainly wouldn't hang out with 'em if I were you.

You seem to have engaged a fanciful fairy tale about the history of your predecessors. There is not a single man of them who didn't admit their shortcomings as that is what the scriptures show us all.

Unfortunately it seems that they forgot that sinners with imperfect sights are technically NOT Perfect.

through the authentic power and witness of the Holy Spirit. What you believe or what I believe will not change what scripture means and will mean in all the years to come until He returns.

Welcome to the sola scriptura club!

You clearly have placed yourself, your own interpretation of a text above that of the Holy Spirit.

There is not one whit of difference between Word and Spirit.

Men's imperfect and partial reflections on same however are an entirely different matter.

If a man speaks truthfully from the text, they will openly admit their utter failures in Perfection as that is what both scripture and Spirit speak to.

So, follow the little bouncing ball here. IF your sect is honest they will honestly admit their own shortcomings, sins and partial sights and therefore they are in the same boat with all other believers.

Authority should extend to that extent shouldn't it? And if so they should speak truthfully and they would see the ridiculousness of PERFECT CLAIMS.

When they can not speak simple truth, they are POSERS.

You also stated that if someone comes close to your interpretation you will acknowledge that they have done so and would be in accord with scripture, meaning your interpretation of scripture.

There is no 'interpretation' needed to see our factual conditions. Why you need some 'religious perfect authority' to show you the obvious is beyond me.

This fact was revealed from day one of Adam from God Himself.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Mitspa]

If you were saved by the Cross as an individual, then why is this verse saying that you are not saved unless you believe in your heart?
Surely, you are not suggesting that Jesus believed in your heart for you on the Cross?

Thats not what the verse says, now is it? Not what I said either, is it?

What you seem to be ignorant of is that savlation is in the "spirit" not in the natural realm. there in a natural "temporal" realm which will pass away. There is an "eternal" spiritual realm that by Faith we who believe may enter into. Christ and His Work on the Cross is the legal "righteous act" that allows us to enter into eternal salvation, Which is "spiritual".

1Co 2:9






But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10



But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11



For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12



Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13



Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14



But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now, "salvation" was won for all who will enter in "by faith", into the "Spirit". The legal payment and required cost of that entry into salvation was made at "His Cross". His was an "eternal work" in this "temporal realm". It is the ONLY acceptable "work" that is available to any man, for salvation.


I hope you can understand, I have tried to lay it out in a simple way? -Mitspa

 

[WIP]

I'm going to repeat Reba's warning. Please refrain from addressing each other personally and address ONLY the topic.
None of us is infallible.

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

Thats not what the verse says, now is it? Not what I said either, is it?
What you seem to be ignorant of is that savlation is in the "spirit" not in the natural realm. there in a natural "temporal" realm which will pass away. There is an "eternal" spiritual realm that by Faith we who believe may enter into. Christ and His Work on the Cross is the legal "righteous act" that allows us to enter into eternal salvation, Which is "spiritual".

YOu have a completely different word use to describe what scripture is actually saying regarding our salvation.

Christ gave life, which means eternal life to the world, to all mankind, so that this created order will not succumb to permanent death which is our state through Adam. Death, the dissolution of man, separation of body and soul, returning to dust was our end without Christ.

Christ saved us from death and sin. Why did He do this. First, because He is Sovereign and to take away the power of death from Satan. God did not create the world just so it could be dissolved by death. He created man for the sole purpose to have union and communion with Him. If man was going to be dissolved by death, then God would not be able to have a relationship with man, surely not for an eternity.

When man was freed from bondage to death and sin, now God can again have union with man, and can have union for an eternity. But that union would be entered into by faith, and we would be saved through that faith. God created man free so that man and God could interact by freedom, not compulsion.
To say that you were saved on the Cross individually is unbiblical, but that you are being saved individually by and through faith because Christ freed us from death and sin is biblical.

Why use the word "legal" when it has nothing to do with legal, or a judicious event, or act. The meaning of the word "righteous" is not a legal term.
I understand now you use of all these tests of faith, of spiritual etc. All they show is that we are being saved through faith. and Yes, it is a spiritual relationship. However this is made possible because of the Cross. YOu are not saved individually by the Cross. Or, it is correct to say that the Cross made our individual salvation possible.

Now, "salvation" was won for all who will enter in "by faith", into the "Spirit". The legal payment and required cost of that entry into salvation was made at "His Cross". His was an "eternal work" in this "temporal realm". It is the ONLY acceptable "work" that is available to any man, for salvation.

this is very confusing scriptural theology.

It is surely true that salvation from death and sin was won for every human being. Every human being will have an eternal existance, the question that only remains, where, heaven or hell. It is why Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead at His Second Coming.

YOur use of a "legal payment" and required cost is quite different terminology than scripture as well. What is legal about it. Seems you might be hung up on the so-called, satisfaction theory of atonement. The last phrase I cannot understand it in any scriptural format. the work of Christ is not something that is available, but it is the Great Gift of Mercy given to every human being. Man cannot effect it, affect it, or even deny it. It is a finished work and one receives it whether one believes or not.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,



YOu have a completely different word use to describe what scripture is actually saying regarding our salvation.

Christ gave life, which means eternal life to the world, to all mankind

2Pe 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Every physical thing ever made or known, will be dissolved! Only that which has been redeemed by the Blood of Christ by faith in His blood will be saved. God is an Eternal Spirit. He dwells in the Third Heaven, It is an "eternal realm" no temporal time as we know it. Now savlation is being taking from this temporal realm, "physical", "first creation" Into the New Creation. A new heaven and new earth etc... This is a "spiritual" realm.

2Co 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Gal 6:14

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

I hope this will help, its a little deep but I feel I am supposed to share it?

Christ is redeeming us OUT of this "temporal"world, into the "eternal" realm. This is by "The Spirit" no flesh is justified in any way. Faith allows us to receive that which is of the eternal nature of God. "His Spirit" To set your mind on things "eternal" is to set your mind on heaven and the "new creation"


2Co 4:18

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Cassian]

2Pe 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Every physical thing ever made or known, will be dissolved! Only that which has been redeemed by the Blood of Christ by faith in His blood will be saved. God is an Eternal Spirit. He dwells in the Third Heaven, It is an "eternal realm" no temporal time as we know it. Now savlation is being taking from this temporal realm, "physical", "first creation" Into the New Creation. A new heaven and new earth etc... This is a "spiritual" realm.

2Co 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Gal 6:14

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

I hope this will help, its a little deep but I feel I am supposed to share it?

Christ is redeeming us OUT of this "temporal"world, into the "eternal" realm. This is by "The Spirit" no flesh is justified in any way. Faith allows us to receive that which is of the eternal nature of God. "His Spirit" To set your mind on things "eternal" is to set your mind on heaven and the "new creation"


2Co 4:18

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

and what is the point of the texts. Why are you using them, to show what? Citing texts is quite meaningless. I'm sure you have a much different understanding than I on them.

 

[Mitspa]

and what is the point of the texts. Why are you using them, to show what? Citing texts is quite meaningless. I'm sure you have a much different understanding than I on them.

I believe our conversation started when YOU claimed the work of the His Cross had nothing to do with "personal" salvation. You seem to be unaware that salvation is a "spiritual" work, not a physical work. That the Work of salvation was done by Christ alone, OUR faith is in HIM and in HIS WORK.


2Pe 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Every physical thing ever made or known, will be dissolved! Only that which has been redeemed by the Blood of Christ by faith in His blood will be saved. God is an Eternal Spirit. He dwells in the Third Heaven, It is an "eternal realm" no temporal time as we know it. Now savlation is being taking from this temporal realm, "physical", "first creation" Into the New Creation. A new heaven and new earth etc... This is a "spiritual" realm.

2Co 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Gal 6:14

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

I hope this will help, its a little deep but I feel I am supposed to share it?

Christ is redeeming us OUT of this "temporal"world, into the "eternal" realm. This is by "The Spirit" no flesh is justified in any way. Faith allows us to receive that which is of the eternal nature of God. "His Spirit" To set your mind on things "eternal" is to set your mind on heaven and the "new creation"


2Co 4:18

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.



Again "salvation" is not in this "first" natural creation.
But in a "New" Spiritual creation

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

I believe our conversation started when YOU claimed the work of the His Cross had nothing to do with "personal" salvation. You seem to be unaware that salvation is a "spiritual" work, not a physical work. That the Work of salvation was done by Christ alone, OUR faith is in HIM and in HIS WORK.

I claimed it, showed it and you have not been able to refute it. Actually, you really don't understand the difference between what Christ did on the Cross, why He did it, and that it is what makes our spiritual relationship with Christ possible.
What Christ did was all physical. He was born, Incarnate, lived the same life we do, died, but rose again for our jusfication. It is His physical resurrection of our mortal nature, that grants life to the world and to all of mankind. It guarantees that the world and man will not be dissolved by death. Secondly, His death also atoned from sin, that is a physical sacrifice.

There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross. NOne of it had anything to do with your spiritual relationship directly except to correct the fall, and make the relationship between God and man possible again, a relationship for which we were created.

If Christ did not redeem His created order from death and free mankind from death and sin which was the fall, there would be no purpose of a relationship with God for an eternity. The fact that Christ did not make us immortal immediately, or eradicate sin immediately from us and destroy satan is that in our lifetime, because we are being saved through faith, sin becomes the test of our faith. It is why we were created free, We are being given the same test, the same privilege, the same opportunity as Adam had in the Garden.

Again "salvation" is not in this "first" natural creation.
But in a "New" Spiritual creation

the salvation is the here and now in this real physical creation. the future, heaven is not spiritual either. It will be physical, glorified, but still physical. YOu are misusing the word spiritual. Our relationship is spiritual, but our existance is physical. We will never be spirits.

The New Heaven and earth and eternity is NOT salvation, but the consequences of our salvation in the here and now.

 

[Mitspa]

There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross.

Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


1Co 2:8

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13


Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,



Its all "spiritual" - Mitspa