The False Security of Eternal Security

[rrowell]

Ernest T. Bass -

Jesus said that there is all types of soil where the seed is planted but only the good soil will cause it to grow and mature. If a person fell out of faith in Christ I would have to trust that their faith was not planted in good soil but rather planted in or around unstable soil (worldly views and expressions). Matthew 13:4-9
- LJ

Jesus did say for the seed to grow, it must be planted in good soil, but in good soil so does that which God did not plant spring up (false teaching), and He will root up what he did not plant:

Matthew 15:13 (KJV)
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

 

[Mitspa]

Jesus did say for the seed to grow, it must be planted in good soil, but in good soil so does that which God did not plant spring up (false teaching), and He will root up what he did not plant:

Matthew 15:13 (KJV)
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Joh 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
2Co 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Your right that which is not of faith, is sin!

 

[heymikey80]

In an earlier post I gave you several verses that shows it is impossible to be both a righteus Christian and sinner at the same time. Here they are again:

Yes, I heard the =beep= =beep= of the dumptruck.

If you'd like, read through the response, and respond to that.

Since you didn't, Eph 1:4 has already been answered.

Are there any that haven't been answered to you, ETB?

I'm not going to rummage through things I've already responded to to find the slim pickings of issues that remain.

My answer still stands on Eph 1:4. What of it?

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Judas was never save,d "Except" is a mistranslation, Judas was called "The Devil" he was never saved, and possibly not even Human enough to qualify for it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, I heard the =beep= =beep= of the dumptruck.

If you'd like, read through the response, and respond to that.

Since you didn't, Eph 1:4 has already been answered.

Are there any that haven't been answered to you, ETB?

I'm not going to rummage through things I've already responded to to find the slim pickings of issues that remain.

My answer still stands on Eph 1:4. What of it?

You are wrong about Eph 1:4. EPh 1:4,5 is talking about the group (Christians) God foreknew and God foreknew this group would be "in Christ" be "holy and without blame" and be called "sons" and from Eph 2:10 God even forknew the type of works this group would do. Therefore if one is NOT in Christ, NOT holy and without blame NOT a son and NOT doing those foreknown works then one is NOT a Christian. If one can be a Christian and NOT be holy and without blame then one can be a Christian and NOT be in Christ, NOT be a son of God and NOT do those foreknwn works which is NOT possible at all. Your theology creates a host of contradictions and theological impossibilities.


Here are some of the other passages you have not dealt with:

Could a sinner as Paul live up to 1 Jn 3:6,9 ?


Was Paul of the devil, 1 Jn 3:8 ?

Not possible to both be righteous and a sinner. In Rom 6:16 Paul said each one serves either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Cannot serve both at the same time as you try and have Paul do.

1 Cor 11:1 if Paul was a sinner then Christ was too.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Judas was never save,d "Except" is a mistranslation, Judas was called "The Devil" he was never saved, and possibly not even Human enough to qualify for it.

What verse says Judas was never saved?

Was Judas never a disciple of Christ, Lk 6:13-16 ?

 

[ezra]

In an earlier post I gave you several verses that shows it is impossible to be both a righteus Christian and sinner at the same time. Here they are again:

sorry but i am no longer the sinner i use to be. no wonder you struggle with being secure in Christ . the law of the spirit the life in christ has set me free from the law of sin and death. sin does not have Dominion over me.:yes

 

[Cassian]

sorry but i am no longer the sinner i use to be. no wonder you struggle with being secure in Christ . the law of the spirit the life in christ has set me free from the law of sin and death. sin does not have Dominion over me.:yes

It really has nothing to do with being secure in Christ since Christ freed all mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Sin definitely can have dominion over you, if you permit it.

In fact, because He overcame death, sin now has consequences in our lives. It is that we can control our sinning. And that is the purpose of all the grace, and assistance available to us to use. If we don't use those gifts man will have a very difficult if not impossible way to overcome sin. It is a daily battle for any Christian. Whether you sin or choose to sin and whether you try to overcome sin is all up to you. Christ or the Holy Spirit does not just unilaterally prevent you from sinning. If that were actually true and possible, all men would be saved, since God desires that all men be saved and come to know Him. It would not be necessary for us to know HIm, He would simply prevent us from sinning.

 

[ezra]

It really has nothing to do with being secure in Christ since Christ freed all mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Sin definitely can have dominion over you, if you permit it.

In fact, because He overcame death, sin now has consequences in our lives. It is that we can control our sinning. And that is the purpose of all the grace, and assistance available to us to use. If we don't use those gifts man will have a very difficult if not impossible way to overcome sin. It is a daily battle for any Christian. Whether you sin or choose to sin and whether you try to overcome sin is all up to you. Christ or the Holy Spirit does not just unilaterally prevent you from sinning. If that were actually true and possible, all men would be saved, since God desires that all men be saved and come to know Him. It would not be necessary for us to know HIm, He would simply prevent us from sinning.

well thank you for your correction every thing i posted was Bible it has every thing to be secure in Christ. while your trying correct my post take time to read the WORD...

Christ or the Holy Spirit does not just unilaterally prevent you from sinning. If that were actually true and possible, all men would be saved, since God desires that all men be saved and come to know Him. It would not be necessary for us to know HIm, He would simply prevent us from sinning

the Holy spirit convicts us when we SIN=== chastisement== conscience ==pricked . dont add to my post plz making it sound different than i posted. jude says he is able to keep us from falling (stumbling) paul writes know to HIM that is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. according to the power that works in us. sure if a person wants to focus on sin worry about sin. they will lead a life of sin.

Holy Spirit does not just unilaterally prevent you from sinning.

no HE gives you the power not to sin :yes:yes

 

[Cassian]

ezra,

well thank you for your correction every thing i posted was Bible it has every thing to be secure in Christ. while your trying correct my post take time to read the WORD...

If you think that I am incorrect, why not explain just why it is incorrect. YOur response is nonsubstantive.

the Holy spirit convicts us when we SIN=== chastisement== conscience ==pricked . dont add to my post plz making it sound different than i posted. jude says he is able to keep us from falling (stumbling) paul writes know to HIM that is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. according to the power that works in us. sure if a person wants to focus on sin worry about sin. they will lead a life of sin.

this statement helps a bit. But it also assumes that you sinned, otherwise you would not be pricked. It also assumes that the Holy Spirit does not prevent you from sinning.

Jude does say He is ABLE, to keep you from falling. But if you decide to fall, to live in sin, He will let you do so, and will not prevent you from falling. He is able only as long as you are willing to work with Him toward your salvation.

Same for your next statement of God giving us abundantly even beyond what we ask. But once again, none of this is unilateral. God only gives if you desire to be given and ask.

It is only when a person is aware of sin, of his sinning, will he be able to live a life resisting sin. If you don't know what is sin, or how you sin, or what is sin, then you cannot resist it either. If you are living in sin, you no longer have the power of the Holy Spirit in you.

If you are living in His power, and doing His will, always, you cannot sin. But we know that is not possible. We do sin, and thus need forgiveness and renewed effort to fight sin, the devil. We need to use the armor available to us. We need to put it on, the Holy Spirit does not put it on for you.

no HE gives you the power not to sin

yes, but we do sin, so He does not prevent you from sinning.

 

[ezra]

1 John 3:8-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Imperative of Love

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

 

[Mitspa]

1Jn 3:23


And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Righteousness is FAITH
LOVE is the will of God fulfilled!

Gal 5:6

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


The simplicity of Christ!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass -

Greetings to you in our Lord Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if this has been covered - I will admit to you that I did not read all the responses. But I felt lead to suggest that if a person falls out of faith in Christ then what soil did that persons faith grow in is to be questioned.

Jesus said that there is all types of soil where the seed is planted but only the good soil will cause it to grow and mature. If a person fell out of faith in Christ I would have to trust that their faith was not planted in good soil but rather planted in or around unstable soil (worldly views and expressions). Matthew 13:4-9

Notice the passage of John 10:27. That they hear Him and follow Him - The Hebrew word is (shama) which means to "to hear, listen, obey". Only a believer will hear (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God) and follows Him (being obedient) Romans 1:5, Romans 6:17, 2 Corinthians 10:5

And this is also how we discern the spirits 1 John 4: 4-6

Let us not marvel at this. If we are in Christ we will never be snatched out of His hands!

- LJ

In the context of Jn 10:27,28

Who are the ones that are Christ's sheep? The ones that continually hear and follow Christ.

Who are the ones God holds in His hand and why does He hold them in his hand?

God holds Christ sheep and holds them for they continually hear and follow Christ.

What if a sheep quit hearing and following Christ, verse 27, will God still uncondtionally hold them in His hand? No. For people of their own choice choose to hear and follow Christ and by their own choice can choose to quit hearing and following Christ.


Rom 8:1 "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


THere is no condemnation to those "in CHrist" but it takes obedience to get in Christ and continued obedience to remain there. There is no guaranteee that one can never fall from Christ for if one quits hearing and following Christ he will fall from Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

sorry but i am no longer the sinner i use to be. no wonder you struggle with being secure in Christ . the law of the spirit the life in christ has set me free from the law of sin and death. sin does not have Dominion over me.:yes

According to HeyMickey80 a person can go back to being the sinner he use to be and still be saved. So what difference would it make if one is or isn't a sinner? If Paul was still a sinner then sin had dominion over him so what difference does it make if sin still has dominion over you? Was Paul [supposedly still being a sinner] proof he was never saved to begin with? If not, then why does anyone else's sinning [as Judas] mean they were never saved to begin with?

 

[BornAgain]

sorry but i am no longer the sinner i use to be. no wonder you struggle with being secure in Christ . the law of the spirit the life in christ has set me free from the law of sin and death. sin does not have Dominion over me.:yes

Does this mean that it is impossible for us to commit an act of sin? No. The reasons are that it was not the intention of the apostle to teach that it is impossible for a child of God to commit a single act of sin? It is in conflict with 1 John 1:7,9 1 John 2:1. The words "he cannot sin" cannot be correctly construed to mean that one cannot commit a single act of sin after being begotten of God.. We do sin.

Psalm 119:11. How did Jesus resist the seductions of Satan? By relying on the same power. Suppose one is tempted to steal. "Thou shalt not steal." So long as this is in the heart and rules the life, one cannot steal.

Paul and John are the same in their teaching on the difference between such occasional weakness to commit sin. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

1 John 3:9 or any other scripture debates the view that it is impossible for a child of God to live above sin in this life.

 

[Atonement]

In the context of Jn 10:27,28

Who are the ones that are Christ's sheep? The ones that continually hear and follow Christ.

Who are the ones God holds in His hand and why does He hold them in his hand?

God holds Christ sheep and holds them for they continually hear and follow Christ.

What if a sheep quit hearing and following Christ, verse 27, will God still uncondtionally hold them in His hand? No. For people of their own choice choose to hear and follow Christ and by their own choice can choose to quit hearing and following Christ.


Rom 8:1 "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


THere is no condemnation to those "in CHrist" but it takes obedience to get in Christ and continued obedience to remain there. There is no guaranteee that one can never fall from Christ for if one quits hearing and following Christ he will fall from Christ.

Ernest T. Bass -

Thank you for reply, hope you are having a blessed day.

I agree with these points above - however, I believe that we may and probably will fail Him at some point (if not daily), but He will never fail us. If we genuinely give our hearts to Christ (though we may fail (backslide)), He is faithful to us >>> Romans 3:3-4 ,, 1 Corinthians 1:9 ,, and 1 John 1:9

LJ

 

[ezra]

According to HeyMickey80 a person can go back to being the sinner he use to be and still be saved. So what difference would it make if one is or isn't a sinner? If Paul was still a sinner then sin had dominion over him so what difference does it make if sin still has dominion over you? Was Paul [supposedly still being a sinner] proof he was never saved to begin with? If not, then why does anyone else's sinning [as Judas] mean they were never saved to begin with?

you just want to hear your right. how secure are you in your salvation ?

Romans 6:14




For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
- New American Standard Version (1995)


what does the Bible say ? the security of our salvation is there. it does not give excuse to live a sinful life. just because the bird builds its nest there. does not mean it has to stay there. he has given us power through the Holy Spirit to overcome sin. unles you don,t believe in the power.

 

[Mitspa]

you just want to hear your right. how secure are you in your salvation ?

Romans 6:14




For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
- New American Standard Version (1995)


what does the Bible say ? the security of our salvation is there. it does not give excuse to live a sinful life. just because the bird builds its nest there. does not mean it has to stay there. he has given us power through the Holy Spirit to overcome sin. unles you don,t believe in the power.

1Ti 4:1


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

We see this scripture is fufilled :bigfrown

the only thing some believe is in their own ability!

Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The "believeth" part is in Christ, not ourselves!



God Bless you Bro Ezra :armed

 

[ezra]

1Ti 4:1


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

We see this scripture is fufilled :bigfrown

the only thing some believe is in their own ability!

Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The "believeth" part is in Christ, not ourselves!



God Bless you Bro Ezra :armed

The "believeth" part is in Christ, not ourselves!

thats just it a true born again child of GOD will return

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

you just want to hear your right. how secure are you in your salvation ?

Romans 6:14




For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
- New American Standard Version (1995)


what does the Bible say ? the security of our salvation is there. it does not give excuse to live a sinful life. just because the bird builds its nest there. does not mean it has to stay there. he has given us power through the Holy Spirit to overcome sin. unles you don,t believe in the power.

Do you agree with HeyMickey80 that a Christian can be a sinner and still maintain his salvation?