The False Security of Eternal Security

[smaller]

Originally Posted by Cassian

"There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross."

Just when you think you've seen it all...




​

 

[Cassian]

Originally Posted by Cassian

"There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross."

Just when you think you've seen it all...





​

More unsubstantiated comments again. Obviously you can neither refute it or even support it.

 

[smaller]

More unsubstantiated comments again. Obviously you can neither refute it or even support it.

Entertainment value comment only.

 

[Cassian]

Entertainment value comment only.

I'm glad you think your comment was entertainment. But the fact is you cannot refute what I stated.

 

[heymikey80]

Again from 1 TIm 1:13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. "

Paul speaks of his sinning and being a sinner in the past here, he was not presently a sinner who was sinning by blasphiming and persecuting, etc.

If you're acknowledging the past tense of 1 Tim 1:13, yet the present tense of 1 Tim 1:15 is emphatic. Why not acknowledge what Paul says? Paul is presently a sinner.

WHen Paul aid he was chief of sinners he was speaking of a present tense remorse he had for his past sinful life.

No one can hold to that. Paul didn't say, "save sinners, of which I am sorry." Paul said, "save sinners, of whom I am the chief." Frankly, I'll take Paul at his word against an interpretation that doesn't.

In an earlier post I gave you several verses that shows it is impossible to be both a righteus Christian and sinner at the same time. Here they are again:

Again from Eph 1:4, 2 Pet 3:14 and Mt 5:48 if one is not holy, blamlesss, spotless and perfect then he is not a Christian.

Ep 1:4, 2 Pt 3:14: Nothing's in the way of interpreting this as the future state of the Christian.

Mt 5:48: You'll find Jesus' challenge here is impossible. "No one is good, except God alone." And of course, Paul wouldn't be a Christian: Phil 3:12

I doubt you'd want me to continue on through the list, so I'll leave you to bring up any that don't comport with these two issues: that Christian perfection is brought to completion at the Resurrection, and that Jesus' challenge to actually be perfect, can't be satisfied and exposes our need of Him.

 

[smaller]

I'm glad you think your comment was entertainment. But the fact is you cannot refute what I stated.

Your comment speaks for itself:

"There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross."

I do get entertainment value out of such nonsense. Reminds me of the power of deception.

s

 

[Cassian]

Your comment speaks for itself:

"There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross."

I do get entertainment value out of such nonsense. Reminds me of the power of deception.

s

nonsense to you, but the fact is you still have not refuted it, or supported it. All it becomes is an unsubstantiated comment which is quite worthless.

 

[smaller]

nonsense to you, but the fact is you still have not refuted it, or supported it. All it becomes is an unsubstantiated comment which is quite worthless.

Is such a statement even worthy of a purported believer?

It speaks for itself...

"There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross."

I can only say that some statements are just a shame. And that would be one.

s

 

[heymikey80]

There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross. NOne of it had anything to do with your spiritual relationship directly except to correct the fall, and make the relationship between God and man possible again, a relationship for which we were created.

God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if (P)while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Rom 5:8-11

Note the "shall we be saved by his life". In other words, the reconciliation shall save us by the life of Christ Jesus. Not a question.

For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:14 We have the mind of Christ Jesus. That's an awful lot of spirituality imparted to Christ's redeemed.

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Eph 1:4-14

That's a lot of spirituality. In fact that's the whole of God's Spirit. Is there more spirituality than God's Eternal Spirit? Is this nonspiritual?

 

[Cassian]

Is such a statement even worthy of a purported believer?

It speaks for itself...

"There is nothing spiritual about Christ's work on the Cross."

I can only say that some statements are just a shame. And that would be one.

s

after three tries you have no answer for it. It speaks for itself.

 

[Cassian]

heymikey80,

God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if (P)while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Rom 5:8-11

Note the "shall we be saved by his life". In other words, the reconciliation shall save us by the life of Christ Jesus. Not a question.

which is the very same as I had originally stated it. Christ's work on the Cross is all physical. NOthing spiritual. It made the spiritual possible, that is our relationship which we have with Him because He died and arose from the dead with our mortal human natures, giving them life, an eternal existance.

For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?†But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:14 We have the mind of Christ Jesus. That's an awful lot of spirituality imparted to Christ's redeemed.

Every human being was redeemed. It is the relationship we enter where the spirituality begins.
YOu only recieve the spiritual things upon belief, upon entrance into His Kingdom. That is the living in His Life or by His Life.

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Eph 1:4-14
That's a lot of spirituality. In fact that's the whole of God's Spirit. Is there more spirituality than God's Eternal Spirit? Is this nonspiritual?

but you did not get any of this on the Cross. YOu got all of it after you believed, We are beings saved as individuals by and through faith through a relationship which is all spiritual.

YOu could not do with Mitspa tried which is to show that you as an individual was saved on the Cross. YOu (Mankind) are saved because of the Cross and resurrection, while you are being individually saved through faith. It is the faith part that is spiritual and it is only through faith that you recieve the spiritual.

 

[heymikey80]

which is the very same as I had originally stated it. Christ's work on the Cross is all physical. NOthing spiritual. It made the spiritual possible, that is our relationship which we have with Him because He died and arose from the dead with our mortal human natures, giving them life, an eternal existance.

No, it didn't say "made possible our salvation". It says "saved us". And in that reconciliation with God, Who is Spirit, not physical, this salvation is spiritual salvation.

According to what Paul said, those reconciled to God were saved by Christ.

 

[smaller]

after three tries you have no answer for it. It speaks for itself.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit -

 

[Mitspa]

Gal 6:8

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


No wonder some find "eternal" security such a hard thing to grasp?
They have planted nothing and will reap what they have sowed! NOTHING:biglol

 

[BornAgain]

Gal 6:8

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


No wonder some find "eternal" security such a hard thing to grasp?
They have planted nothing and will reap what they have sowed! NOTHING:biglol

Men often deceive themselves, but God is never deceived as to man's character or as to his ability or as to the motives that actuate him in anything he does. Self-deception is the most common phase of deception among men. This warning grows out of man's tendency to deceive himself. Many while gratifying the flesh imagine they are following the Spirit. Many preachers preach for money and ease, and imagine that they are preaching to save souls. Most of life's failures come from self-deception. The divine warning is: "Be not wise in your own conceits." Rom 12:16. That is, he is to learn to distrust his own wisdom as folly, that he may learn the wisdom of God; for what the world esteems wise is foolishness with God. All the provisions of human wisdom for the advancement of the church of Christ result in evil, and not in good. The works that human wisdom devise for good bring evil to themselves and to the world.

The Lord has taken the wise men of the churches in their own craftiness. They have thought that they could improve, by their wisdom and craft, on the ways of God, and he has shown them that they bring weakness to the churches and drive men away from God. The church of Christ, which is his temple, is denied, and it is growing weaker under the addition of these human organizations and help.

With all these warnings of God in the scriptures confirmed by the example of the destructive effects of the human inventions, the churches and men claiming to be sensible and to believe in the Bible follow the same path of ruin. This is not an evil omen for the truth. There has drifted into the churches an amount of unbelief in the scriptures. All disposition to bring human organizations into the work and worship of the church comes from a feeling of worldly wisdom which is foolishness with God.

It is not often that a church organization that starts wrong ever turns. They usually run the path of folly and ruin. Lack of confidence in the appointments of God is lack of faith in God. Be not deceived as to these; God is not mocked. When a man or a church turns from God's appointed ways to man's he turns from God to man. But this falling away is no new experience in the church.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you're acknowledging the past tense of 1 Tim 1:13, yet the present tense of 1 Tim 1:15 is emphatic. Why not acknowledge what Paul says? Paul is presently a sinner.

No one can hold to that. Paul didn't say, "save sinners, of which I am sorry." Paul said, "save sinners, of whom I am the chief." Frankly, I'll take Paul at his word against an interpretation that doesn't.

In an earlier post I gave you several verses that shows it is impossible to be both a righteus Christian and sinner at the same time. Here they are again:

Again from Eph 1:4 2 Pet 3:14 and Mt 5:48 if one is not holy, blamlesss, spotless and perfect then he is not a Christian.

Paul said he was holy Eph 3:5

In 1 Thess 2:10 Paul said "Ye [are] witnesses, and God [also], how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:"

Phil 3:15 Paul said "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded:..."


Rom 6:1,2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Why would Paul hypocritcally admonish others not to continue in sin when he, as you erronously think, lived in sin himself?

Was Paul dead to sin or was he a sinner living in sin?

1 Cor 15:34 "Awake to righteousness, and sin (imperative) not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame."

Why would Paul command others to sin not when he himself, according to you, was a sinner?


Could a sinner as Paul live up to 1 Jn 3:6,9 ?


Was Paul of the devil, 1 Jn 3:8 ?

Not possible to both be righteous and a sinner. In Rom 6:16 Paul said each one serves either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Cannot serve both at the same time.


Rom 6:11 a Christian as Paul is dead to sin, so one cannot be at the same time both dead to sin and be a sinner.

1 Cor 11:1 if Paul was a sinner then Christ was too.

Until you deal with the contradictions and erroneous implications you have created with all these verses your point is false.

Even in the context of 1 Tim 1 Paul said "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" 1 Tim 1:9,10


If Paul was a practicing sinner as you so claim then Paul puts himself in the same classification as the unrighteous man, the lawless man, the disobedient, the ungodly, unholy, profane, murderers, whoremongers, liars and contrary to sound doctrine.


In Gal 5:19-21 and 1 Cor 6:9,10 if Paul was a sinner as you claim then Paul condemns himself as being lost per 1 Tim 1:9,10 So Paul was either a righteous person that was saved or a sinner that was lost for you cannot argue he was both for they are mutually exclusive.

Ep 1:4, 2 Pt 3:14: Nothing's in the way of interpreting this as the future state of the Christian.

Then you are just in complete denial of what these verses say about the traits/characteristics of the Christian.

Mt 5:48: You'll find Jesus' challenge here is impossible. "No one is good, except God alone." And of course, Paul wouldn't be a Christian: Phil 3:12

Mt 5:48 the Christian is holy, blameless and spotless and therefore can be perfect by being "in Christ" where in Christ he is covered by Christ's perfect righteousness and has ALL his sins continuously cleansed away....but this requires continued obedience to Christ to be perfect/in Christ.

I doubt you'd want me to continue on through the list, so I'll leave you to bring up any that don't comport with these two issues: that Christian perfection is brought to completion at the Resurrection, and that Jesus' challenge to actually be perfect, can't be satisfied and exposes our need of Him.

You have not even debunked a single one of those verses I posted above as of yet, so please continue with your efforts.

 

[smaller]

In an earlier post I gave you several verses that shows it is impossible to be both a righteus Christian and sinner at the same time. Here they are again:

Again from Eph 1:4 2 Pet 3:14 and Mt 5:48 if one is not holy, blamlesss, spotless and perfect then he is not a Christian.

Paul said he was holy Eph 3:5

In 1 Thess 2:10 Paul said "Ye [are] witnesses, and God [also], how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:"

Phil 3:15 Paul said "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded:..."


Rom 6:1,2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Why would Paul hypocritcally admonish others not to continue in sin when he, as you erronously think, lived in sin himself?

Was Paul dead to sin or was he a sinner living in sin?

1 Cor 15:34 "Awake to righteousness, and sin (imperative) not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame."

Why would Paul command others to sin not when he himself, according to you, was a sinner?

Could a sinner as Paul live up to 1 Jn 3:6,9 ?

Was Paul of the devil, 1 Jn 3:8 ?

Not possible to both be righteous and a sinner. In Rom 6:16 Paul said each one serves either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Cannot serve both at the same time.


Rom 6:11 a Christian as Paul is dead to sin, so one cannot be at the same time both dead to sin and be a sinner.

1 Cor 11:1 if Paul was a sinner then Christ was too.

Until you deal with the contradictions and erroneous implications you have created with all these verses your point is false.

Even in the context of 1 Tim 1 Paul said "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" 1 Tim 1:9,10


If Paul was a practicing sinner as you so claim then Paul puts himself in the same classification as the unrighteous man, the lawless man, the disobedient, the ungodly, unholy, profane, murderers, whoremongers, liars and contrary to sound doctrine.


In Gal 5:19-21 and 1 Cor 6:9,10 if Paul was a sinner as you claim then Paul condemns himself as being lost per 1 Tim 1:9,10 So Paul was either a righteous person that was saved or a sinner that was lost for you cannot argue he was both for they are mutually exclusive.

Then you are just in complete denial of what these verses say about the traits/characteristics of the Christian.

Mt 5:48 the Christian is holy, blameless and spotless and therefore can be perfect by being "in Christ" where in Christ he is covered by Christ's perfect righteousness and has ALL his sins continuously cleansed away....but this requires continued obedience to Christ to be perfect/in Christ.

You have not even debunked a single one of those verses I posted above as of yet, so please continue with your efforts.

Paul called himself the chief of sinners post salvation.

Paul stated from his own mouth that he had evil present with him post salvation.

Paul stated from his own mouth that he had a devil put upon his flesh.

It is entirely possible that Paul reigned over sin that dwelt in his mortal body just as we are all called to do, to reign over what is factually there to reign.

And it is entirely possible that Paul stood justified by the Grace of God in Christ and the evil present with him, NOT.

There is the division that every Christian who is in truth walks in.

We can not say we have no sin and be 'in truth.'

We can reign over it, particularly if we understand the evil present with us is not us, but IS of the tempter, the devil.

Every believer on these boards should be able to come to the conclusion (sooner or later as God will and does show this to us) that temptations are internal and are of the tempter.

That categorically eliminates any of us from being 'internally' alone when the tempter does in fact operate first in MIND and HEART.

If one does not recognize this as a fact, they are easily led in to stage two of temptations which in part is lying about the fact of internal temptations of the tempter. There a sin is revealed in their words.

The final act of sin is sin action, where one believer will damn another believe to burn alive forever. There is no greater hatred available in the heart of any believer, one to another.

That is the culmination of hatred within, and the wrath of God is now abiding in that believers heart and in control of his mental facilities with HATRED, HYPOCRISY, FALSE JUDGMENT and every working that God in Christ fought against in the priesthood of the Israelites and the Pharisees/Sadducee.

The Pharisees were likewise blinded by the devil and the children of the devil, Jesus speaking to those entities openly IN THEM:

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

People of the priesthood are the FIRST to fall. And there is a Divine Reason for that. Because anyone who handles the Word has this happen to them via INTERNAL TEMPTATIONS of the TEMPTER:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

We have ALL as a fact been stolen from. In that there is internal THEFT which is SIN.

Everyone who does not account for this matter will not have an accurate picture of what goes on on the inside of themselves.

God in Christ will save the sinner/believer.

And the devil will be destroyed in hell when the time is RIPE.

In the meantime we should all take caution.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Mitspa]

Men often deceive themselves, but God is never deceived as to man's character or as to his ability or as to the motives that actuate him in anything he does. Self-deception is the most common phase of deception among men. This warning grows out of man's tendency to deceive himself. Many while gratifying the flesh imagine they are following the Spirit. Many preachers preach for money and ease, and imagine that they are preaching to save souls. Most of life's failures come from self-deception. The divine warning is: "Be not wise in your own conceits." Rom 12:16. That is, he is to learn to distrust his own wisdom as folly, that he may learn the wisdom of God; for what the world esteems wise is foolishness with God. All the provisions of human wisdom for the advancement of the church of Christ result in evil, and not in good. The works that human wisdom devise for good bring evil to themselves and to the world.

The Lord has taken the wise men of the churches in their own craftiness. They have thought that they could improve, by their wisdom and craft, on the ways of God, and he has shown them that they bring weakness to the churches and drive men away from God. The church of Christ, which is his temple, is denied, and it is growing weaker under the addition of these human organizations and help.

With all these warnings of God in the scriptures confirmed by the example of the destructive effects of the human inventions, the churches and men claiming to be sensible and to believe in the Bible follow the same path of ruin. This is not an evil omen for the truth. There has drifted into the churches an amount of unbelief in the scriptures. All disposition to bring human organizations into the work and worship of the church comes from a feeling of worldly wisdom which is foolishness with God.

It is not often that a church organization that starts wrong ever turns. They usually run the path of folly and ruin. Lack of confidence in the appointments of God is lack of faith in God. Be not deceived as to these; God is not mocked. When a man or a church turns from God's appointed ways to man's he turns from God to man. But this falling away is no new experience in the church.

not sure how you are responding to a simple scripture?

Gal 6:8

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

How can someone who does not "walk in the Spirit" know eternal salvation?

 

[Atonement]

On the way to work this morning I was scanning through the radio dial and came across a program where someone (Adrian Rogers I think) was teaching on eternal security. His "proof text" was Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." From what I heard he never mentioned verse 27 that goes with verse 28, verse 27 says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"


To qualify as one of Christ's sheep and be in the hand of God requires that one hear and follow Christ. Both verbs "hear" and "follow" are in the Greek present tense showing an on-going, sustained acton and not just a one time or occasional action. One of his own will chooses to hear and follow and as long as he hears and follows Christ he cannot be snatched from God's hand. But if one of his own will chooses to quit hearing and following, he disqualifies himself from being a sheep of Christ and removes himself from God's hand.


There are two sides to salvation:

1) man's faithfulness to God

2) God's faithfulness to man.

Verse 27 shows (1) man's faithfulness to God by man having an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. Verse 28 shows (2) God's faithfulness to man in not allowing man to be snatched away as long as man remains faithful to God. The radio speaker only wanted to talk about (2) God's faithfulness to man as if God will be unconditionally faithful to man whether or not man remains faithful to God in his hearing and following.


(The radio speaker falsely claimed Judas was never saved and then purposely misquoted Jn 6:64 by saying "Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe.")

Ernest T. Bass -

Greetings to you in our Lord Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if this has been covered - I will admit to you that I did not read all the responses. But I felt lead to suggest that if a person falls out of faith in Christ then what soil did that persons faith grow in is to be questioned.

Jesus said that there is all types of soil where the seed is planted but only the good soil will cause it to grow and mature. If a person fell out of faith in Christ I would have to trust that their faith was not planted in good soil but rather planted in or around unstable soil (worldly views and expressions). Matthew 13:4-9

Notice the passage of John 10:27. That they hear Him and follow Him - The Hebrew word is (shama) which means to "to hear, listen, obey". Only a believer will hear (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God) and follows Him (being obedient) Romans 1:5, Romans 6:17, 2 Corinthians 10:5

And this is also how we discern the spirits 1 John 4: 4-6

Let us not marvel at this. If we are in Christ we will never be snatched out of His hands!

- LJ

 

[BornAgain]

not sure how you are responding to a simple scripture?

Hi Mitspa,

It is an explanation to the quote...the scripture is not simple, that is why I responded...