The False Security of Eternal Security

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass -

Thank you for reply, hope you are having a blessed day.

I agree with these points above - however, I believe that we may and probably will fail Him at some point (if not daily), but He will never fail us. If we genuinely give our hearts to Christ (though we may fail (backslide)), He is faithful to us >>> Romans 3:3-4 ,, 1 Corinthians 1:9 ,, and 1 John 1:9

LJ

You say "he will never fail us".


Back in the op, I pointed out there are two sides to salvation:

1) God's faithfulness to man

2) man's faithfulness to God


Those that believe in eternal security only look at one side, they just look at God's faithfulness to man and that is why they just quote Jn 10:28 and not Jn 10:27 where v27 shows man's faithfulness to God. Those that quit being faithful to Christ when they quit hearing and following they remove themselves from God's hand. I know of no verse that says God will remain faithful to save those that are disobedient to Him. 2 Thess 1:8 and Rom 2:6-11 God will have vengeance, wrath and indignation upon those that obey not.

 

[smaller]

I know of no verse that says God will remain faithful to save those that are disobedient to Him.

Romans 11:25-30 says that 'all of Israel' shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to the people of Israel.

Maybe you missed it?

And Paul was also clear about this, for believers, as it is The Spirit of Christ that abides within us all who believe and NO, we are not always, ever and only faithful, but He Is:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Once joined to His Body by faith, there is no removal available. Parts will all however be 'tested' by fire before final assembly.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 11:25-30 says that 'all of Israel' shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to the people of Israel.

Maybe you missed it?

And Paul was also clear about this, for believers, as it is The Spirit of Christ that abides within us all who believe and NO, we are not always, ever and only faithful, but He Is:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Once joined to His Body by faith, there is no removal available. Parts will all however be 'tested' by fire before final assembly.

s

Rom 11:25-30 does not say enemies of the gospel shall be saved nor does 2 Tim 2:13 say the unbeliever will be saved. But 2 Thess 1:8 and Rom 2:6-11 says God will have vengeance wrath and indignation upon those who obey not the gospel of Christ.

 

[ezra]

Do you agree with HeyMickey80 that a Christian can be a sinner and still maintain his salvation?

nope because we are a new creation in Christ we are crucified with Christ ..yes a christian will in no doubt sin. that does mean they lost their salvation .. nor does eternal security give you or i or any one the license to SIN.. or excuse/reason. read the Bible we can be secure in our salvation by faith kept through the power of GOD. nor am i saying if one gets saved returns back to his old way of life and never returns. that they still go to heaven..1 that's not my job to judge. 2. i have doubts they was ever saved... if that don,t explain it..i can,t help you.. the holy spirit will bring them back into fellowship provided they listen to his voice. --

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

nope because we are a new creation in Christ we are crucified with Christ ..yes a christian will in no doubt sin. that does mean they lost their salvation .. nor does eternal security give you or i or any one the license to SIN.. or excuse/reason. read the Bible we can be secure in our salvation by faith kept through the power of GOD. nor am i saying if one gets saved returns back to his old way of life and never returns. that they still go to heaven..1 that's not my job to judge. 2. i have doubts they was ever saved... if that don,t explain it..i can,t help you.. the holy spirit will bring them back into fellowship provided they listen to his voice. --

So if a Christian returns to wallowing in the mire of sin, 2 Pet 2:22 he can maintain his salvation?

 

[Eventide]

Every born again Christian since the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost has DIED..

How come ?

Because the wages of sin is death.. and if we say that we do not have sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.

How could it be more obvious than that...

And obviously a born again Christian is not without hope.. for we believe that He shall come and change these VILE BODIES of ours like unto His glorious resurrected body.

Those who say or think that they do not sin are deceived and the truth is not in them.. simple as that.

 

[smaller]

Rom 11:25-30 does not say enemies of the gospel shall be saved

That's the interesting part of Word. It can be put in front of your eyes and my eyes and some will see and some can't no matter what.

Only God can show a believer. Otherwise it will remain blinded to them.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's the interesting part of Word. It can be put in front of your eyes and my eyes and some will see and some can't no matter what.

Only God can show a believer. Otherwise it will remain blinded to them.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

The enemies of the gospel are the Jews that refused to believe the gospel and they are not saved per Rom 10:1 cf 1 Thess 2:14-16

 

[smaller]

The enemies of the gospel are the Jews that refused to believe the gospel and they are not saved per Rom 10:1 cf 1 Thess 2:14-16

Romans 11:25-30 was part of the Divine Reasoning that some believers will encounter to 'test' the validity of their doctrines.

You have a 'subjective' filter on the matter called 'freewill' and through that sifter must sift all your understanding.

Because Paul's statement of fact does not get through your sifter you can not accept it for the fact it is. Nor can you even SEE IT.

Nothing more than that.

I could point you to any number of scriptures that would point to why unbelieving Israel could NOT believe no matter what they did, and that such blindness was/is induced by God Himself, even for YOUR benefit, and you would still not see it or perceive it because you have installed upon you a subjective filter that God Himself has in fact placed so you can not see it or perceive it.

Even some 'determinists' here may not see it, but some do.

s

 

[ezra]

So if a Christian returns to wallowing in the mire of sin, 2 Pet 2:22 he can maintain his salvation?

DID I SAY THAT ? NO MATTER WHAT WE DO god IS STANDING AT THE DOOR WAITING FOR US TO OPEN IT. HE WILL TAKE US back unconditionally ..provided our heart is right*

 

[Mitspa]

2Pe 2:14

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Rom 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

epithumia (concupiscence)

Thayer Definition:
1) desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust

2Pe 2:21

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22


But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This scripture is speaking of those who turn from the righteousness of faith, back into law and covetousness that the law produces.

Gal 1:6

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Repent, repent, repent!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 11:25-30 was part of the Divine Reasoning that some believers will encounter to 'test' the validity of their doctrines.

You have a 'subjective' filter on the matter called 'freewill' and through that sifter must sift all your understanding.

Because Paul's statement of fact does not get through your sifter you can not accept it for the fact it is. Nor can you even SEE IT.

Nothing more than that.

I could point you to any number of scriptures that would point to why unbelieving Israel could NOT believe no matter what they did, and that such blindness was/is induced by God Himself, even for YOUR benefit, and you would still not see it or perceive it because you have installed upon you a subjective filter that God Himself has in fact placed so you can not see it or perceive it.

Even some 'determinists' here may not see it, but some do.

s

Sorry but Rom 11:25-30 and 2 Tim 2:13 do not say what you are claiming.


You posted "I could point you to any number of scriptures that would point to why unbelieving Israel could NOT believe no matter what they did,..."

In Romans chapter 10 Paul said those unbelieving Jews might be saved, verse 1, if they would submit to the righteousness of God, v3 by believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth, verse 9,10. Verse 13 Paul says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

DID I SAY THAT ? NO MATTER WHAT WE DO god IS STANDING AT THE DOOR WAITING FOR US TO OPEN IT. HE WILL TAKE US back unconditionally ..provided our heart is right*

So if the Chrsitian cannot maintian his salvation if he returns to wallowing in the mire of sin, then eternal security is false.

I liked how you said God will take the Christian back UNCONDTIONALLY....but then you list a condition that must be met for God to take the Christian back.

But then again there would be no such thing "taking back" Christians if one cannot be snatched away from God's hand under no circumstance to begin with.

 

[smaller]

Sorry but Rom 11:25-30 and 2 Tim 2:13 do not say what you are claiming.

You posted "I could point you to any number of scriptures that would point to why unbelieving Israel could NOT believe no matter what they did,..."

No man enters His Kingdom unless and until they are GRANTED GRACE LIGHT from Above. No man provides 'his own light.'

Light is a Heavenly GIFT. Light also hardens the enemies. That's the Way God Works in this present world. He lifts some and others are purposefully put DOWN.

In Romans chapter 10 Paul said those unbelieving Jews might be saved, verse 1, if they would submit to the righteousness of God, v3 by believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth, verse 9,10. Verse 13 Paul says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

I don't doubt or question any scripture.

Romans 11:8 certainly shows that it was God Himself who placed the spirit of slumber upon the unbelieving of Israel so they could neither see nor hear and no, there was not a single thing they could do about it, period. It is a Working of God Himself.

When any of us 'witness' to Christ and His Life, we are not speaking to 'just people.' The 'god of this world' is placed upon the minds of the unbelievers so THEY CAN NOT HEAR.

It is not 'just them' then that we witness to. There is also a RESISTOR in their minds who will NOT allow them to hear UNLESS GOD GRANTS them sight.

Freewillers however only blame the blinded. In that they themselves show they can NOT see the factual condition of the UNbeliever and are themselves blinded to this fact.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Freewillers can read the above 10,000 times and they STILL can not see that it is the god of this world that blinds the mind of the unbeliever.

Any truthful witness knows that only God Himself can grant His Light that is only His to Give. Therefore our witness and appeal is not to men, but to God. Knowing that it is only HIS PURPOSES that will be served.

And in that we TRUST.

If God grants repentance, repent they will. If God grants belief, believe they will. And if God elects to harden, HARDEN HE WILL.

And of course God will also make all of us see these matters differently. Some will have more light, some less, graces are also variant as are diversities of operations of God with believers.

So in that I would not find fault with whatever sight you have been given if you have been called in, even if you want to give yourself credit. I would just say that is where you have been 'led' to see. Certainly no condemnation in my hand to you. We all see only in part regardless, and a little light is better'n none.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No man enters His Kingdom unless and until they are GRANTED GRACE LIGHT from Above. No man provides 'his own light.'

Light is a Heavenly GIFT. Light also hardens the enemies. That's the Way God Works in this present world. He lifts some and others are purposefully put DOWN.

I don't doubt or question any scripture.

Romans 11:8 certainly shows that it was God Himself who placed the spirit of slumber upon the unbelieving of Israel so they could neither see nor hear and no, there was not a single thing they could do about it, period. It is a Working of God Himself.

When any of us 'witness' to Christ and His Life, we are not speaking to 'just people.' The 'god of this world' is placed upon the minds of the unbelievers so THEY CAN NOT HEAR.

It is not 'just them' then that we witness to. There is also a RESISTOR in their minds who will NOT allow them to hear UNLESS GOD GRANTS them sight.

Freewillers however only blame the blinded. In that they themselves show they can NOT see the factual condition of the UNbeliever and are themselves blinded to this fact.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Freewillers can read the above 10,000 times and they STILL can not see that it is the god of this world that blinds the mind of the unbeliever.

Any truthful witness knows that only God Himself can grant His Light that is only His to Give. Therefore our witness and appeal is not to men, but to God. Knowing that it is only HIS PURPOSES that will be served.

And in that we TRUST.

If God grants repentance, repent they will. If God grants belief, believe they will. And if God elects to harden, HARDEN HE WILL.

And of course God will also make all of us see these matters differently. Some will have more light, some less, graces are also variant as are diversities of operations of God with believers.

So in that I would not find fault with whatever sight you have been given if you have been called in, even if you want to give yourself credit. I would just say that is where you have been 'led' to see. Certainly no condemnation in my hand to you. We all see only in part regardless, and a little light is better'n none.

s

Paul said those unbelieving Jews might be saved, you say they could not, so there is a contradiction.

Rom 11:8 does not say God forced them against their will where they could not see or hear for that would put culpability upon God for them being lost unbelievers. God allowed those Jews to not see and hear, Rom 1:24,25 for they closed their own eyes and ears, Matt 13:15
1 Thess 2:14-16 the Jews of their own will committed sins against God and God did not passively force them to murder Christ and the prophets against their will.

2 Cor 4:4 They first of their own will chose to believe not for Satan did not force them to be blind against their will.


So first you quote Rom 11:8 and claim it is God that blinded them then you quote 2 Cor 4:4 and claim Satan blinded them. THe truth is they blinded themselves.

 

[smaller]

Paul said those unbelieving Jews might be saved, you say they could not, so there is a contradiction.

And I'd say you paid no attention whatsover to the scripture I cited prior, Romans 11:25-30 and what happens to enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel.

Even though it's right there in black and white what happens to them ALL, you still would be unable to see it or perceive it. And I just can't help you there.

Rom 11:8 does not say God forced them against their will where they could not see or hear for that would put culpability upon God for them being lost
unbelievers.

Of course God put that spirit of slumber upon them. That is exactly what that scripture says.

But that fact can't get through your 'freewill' sifter, so you end up DENYING the Words in favor of your doctrinal imposition. Not really my issue. I have no 'agenda' to uphold using your doctrine. You do. I'd rather take the statement exactly as it says.

God allowed those Jews to not see and hear, Rom 1:24,25 for they closed their own eyes and ears, Matt 13:15

You perhaps should submit for a rewrite on Romans 11:8 so it would fit your doctrine. The spirit of slumber was obviously PUT upon them by God. That means there was the JEW and the 'spirit of slumber.' Get it? Two, Two, Two different parties.

Paul describes this exact same thing in 2 Cor. 4:4 showing the identical matter. And for those who 'see it' and 'are led to accept it' as a fact, there are in fact MANY MANY more showings of this exact same matter.

But to some, God will intentionally BLOCK that information by the use of that same spirit of SLUMBER, POST salvation.

So first you quote Rom 11:8 and claim it is God that blinded them then you quote 2 Cor 4:4 and claim Satan blinded them. THe truth is they blinded themselves.

Jesus described the exact same thing.

THIS is HOW God BLINDED them. By SOWING HIS WORDS:

and WHO then pops up to SPOIL the PARTY?

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Every reader/hearer of the above who hears a 'little voice' in their own minds that says: this never happened to you

has in fact already been stolen from, and they neither know it or perceive it.

and instead these will be led into FREEWILL doctrine blaming ONLY man and denying SOVEREIGN DETERMINATION.

Paul gives this same picture for himself in Romans 7:21, for mankind in general in Romans 9:19-21 and for Israel in Romans 11. Some will get it, most won't.

They get 'stopped' by claiming 'immunity' from the facts 'in their own minds.' And it is the devil who tries to claim that in them and GLOM ON or 'stick to' to the hearers.

Those who are led to hear WILL DIVIDE from EVIL, even while realizing 'we are carriers' of same.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[beardedad]

I have not read all the posts but I don't think John 3:16 sets any restrictions. It simply says that to believe and you would be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And I'd say you paid no attention whatsover to the scripture I cited prior, Romans 11:25-30 and what happens to enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel.

Even though it's right there in black and white what happens to them ALL, you still would be unable to see it or perceive it. And I just can't help you there.



Of course God put that spirit of slumber upon them. That is exactly what that scripture says.

But that fact can't get through your 'freewill' sifter, so you end up DENYING the Words in favor of your doctrinal imposition. Not really my issue. I have no 'agenda' to uphold using your doctrine. You do. I'd rather take the statement exactly as it says.



You perhaps should submit for a rewrite on Romans 11:8 so it would fit your doctrine. The spirit of slumber was obviously PUT upon them by God. That means there was the JEW and the 'spirit of slumber.' Get it? Two, Two, Two different parties.

Paul describes this exact same thing in 2 Cor. 4:4 showing the identical matter. And for those who 'see it' and 'are led to accept it' as a fact, there are in fact MANY MANY more showings of this exact same matter.

But to some, God will intentionally BLOCK that information by the use of that same spirit of SLUMBER, POST salvation.



Jesus described the exact same thing.

THIS is HOW God BLINDED them. By SOWING HIS WORDS:

and WHO then pops up to SPOIL the PARTY?

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Every reader/hearer of the above who hears a 'little voice' in their own minds that says: this never happened to you

has in fact already been stolen from, and they neither know it or perceive it.

and instead these will be led into FREEWILL doctrine blaming ONLY man and denying SOVEREIGN DETERMINATION.

Paul gives this same picture for himself in Romans 7:21, for mankind in general in Romans 9:19-21 and for Israel in Romans 11. Some will get it, most won't.

They get 'stopped' by claiming 'immunity' from the facts 'in their own minds.' And it is the devil who tries to claim that in them and GLOM ON or 'stick to' to the hearers.

Those who are led to hear WILL DIVIDE from EVIL, even while realizing 'we are carriers' of same.

enjoy!

smaller

Again, Paul said those unbelieving Jews might be saved, Rom 10. You are saying they cannot, so you are contradicting Paul.

Matt 13:15 says those Jews closed their own eyes and ears and God allowed them to, He did not stop them, Rom 11:8.


And you did not deal with the theological problem of making God culpable for the lost if He made the Jews close their eyes and ears against thier own will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have not read all the posts but I don't think John 3:16 sets any restrictions. It simply says that to believe and you would be saved.

Jn 3:16 in the KJV reads "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The verb should is in the subjunctive mood showing that something may or may not happen depending on circumstances...that one may or may not perish depending if he has a continued belief or not. For if one quits believing then he can perish.

Jn 3:16 in the NIV reads ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,* that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The NIV ignored the subjunctive mood and tried to make it indicative mood saying one for certain, as a matter of fact will not perish.....even if he quits believing.

 

[smaller]

Again, Paul said those unbelieving Jews might be saved, Rom 10. You are saying they cannot, so you are contradicting Paul.

Said nothing of the sort and pointed to a factually opposite conclusion from the text in Romans 11:25-30 as it pertains to 'all of Israel,' even those who were made enemies of the Gospel by God Himself in our behalves.

But also as stated prior 'some' can NOT hear it or see it, though it be put in front of them continually.

Matt 13:15 says those Jews closed their own eyes and ears and God allowed them to, He did not stop them, Rom 11:8.

And you will continue to see 'only man' as that is how God has slated you to see presently. There really is no other way available for you to see, hard as you may try with your own applied will.

And you did not deal with the theological problem of making God culpable for the lost if He made the Jews close their eyes and ears against thier own will.

Do you really think any believer has a will that wants to be burned alive forever?

If not, why in the world would you even think of trying to promote that if such have called upon the Lord to save them by the FREE GRACE which He Himself granted to them?

To me that seems very much opposed to the Will of God to save them, and I tend to mark and avoid such proponents as they are really on a different page of intentions within themselves.

They can't even see what they are trying to do, and think it right to promote eternally killing or eternally torturing Gods children.

In my eyes the wrath of God has came into their hearts and they failed to either stop it or perceive it.

s