The False Security of Eternal Security

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

Ah, hm. We're talking about a parable here. The idea was that someone who disappeared for a long time with no communication would be presumed dead or considered legally disowned, essentially the same thing. The kid didn't factually die in the parable: the kid was separated from his family, from which resulted his treatment as dead.

Arguably, the younger son would be first a model of a group of people, not an individual.

Well, in Hebrews the Apostle speaks again & again about the importance of the Christian having faith. He talks about faith all the way up to this passage, and then immediately afterward picks up the subject of faith.

But the Apostle doesn't attribute faith to the person fallen away in Hebrews 6.

One might presume that the Spirit of God leads people to respond to the commands of God, and that Peter was looking for any sign that the Spirit of God was working on Simon. It seems Peter got some confirmation of that. Simon wasn't immediately dead like Ananias & Sapphira, and Simon seemed to have learned and changed from the interchange.

That does lead to a question, though: God Himself commanded Israel to follow the Law. Why did God do that?

Lk 15:24 "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found."

The son could be alive AGAIN only if he were alive before. The son did not physically die in the parable so when verse 24 speaks of him being dead and alive again it is speaking to his spiritual state. He was spiritually alive when he was with his father, he left and became spiritually dead, he returned repenting and wa spiritually alive again.

Some have suggested to me that he never became lost, yet that cannot explain away that he was called "dead" spiritually. It also suggest one can spend his money on harlots, live in fornication and still be saved which completely goes against what Paul said in 1 Cor 6:9 where fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 6 speaks of those that:

--once enlightened

--tasted of the heavenly gift

--made partakers of the Holy Ghost

--tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come

The Hebrew is talking of those in a saved position, for me to deny that is to simply deny the bible. The Hebrew says of these saved people "If they shall fall away". How can they fall away if they were never saved? Those never saved have always been fallen and have nothing to fall from. Logically for you to fall out of a tree you must first climb up in the tree so logically for one to fall away he must first be in a position of salvation to fall from.


You post "One might presume that the Spirit of God leads people to respond to the commands of God,"

..and one might presume wrong. Peter commanded Simon repent and the command implies that Simon had both the ability and responsibility within himself to obey this command. Simon did not need any miraculous intervention of the Holy Ghost in order for him to repent. If the only way one could repent is if the Holy Ghost has to intervene then no repentance would due to the Holy Ghost failing to interevene.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is stretching it because Hebrews 6 speaks of the apostate as those who cannot be renewed to repentance.

Seem my reply #5 in this thread as to Heb 6.

Why was Simon commanded to repent and how was he able to repent if it were impossible?

Judas was the Son of Perdition and he never truly believed.

There is nothing that says Judas never truly believed.

Lk 6:13ff "And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, And Judas [the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor."

Judas, as the others, was a disciple of Christ, one whom Jesus called and chose to be an apostle. If Judas did not truly believe then there is no reason to think the other disciples truly believed.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is impossible to align anything with scripture if one starts from a false presupposition. It creates contradictions so theorists then develop new ideas to answer for the contradiction, thus reinforcing the false doctrine and put it further outside of scripture.

Someone earlier mention the person in 1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. "


This individual committed the sin of fornication with his father's wife. If one suggested he could not lose his salvation then Paul was wrong in 1 Cor 6:9,10 where he said fornicators (unrighteous) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

If they play the "never saved to begin with" card, the context does not allow for that for this man was among them in the church at Corinth..."It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

If they still want to argue he was not of the church at Corinth, and that he was never truly saved, Paul said of the man to "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

This supposedly never saved man needed to be saved and how does delivering him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh save one who has never been saved?

Does delivering one to Satan remit sins?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm not aware that commission of sin proves someone was never saved. I could bring together a number of people who say they sin, and I wouldn't consider them unsaved for simply committing a sin.

So this reasoning is not the reasoning of eternal security, but of a critic.

I have been told by some that Simon and Judas sinning prove they were never truly saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

Good for you, what are you then, Orthodox..? Boston Church of Christ ?



I appreciate you sharing your opinion, I don't agree with it and told you so.



I also told you that.. that there is a world of difference between being alive once in the first Adam, as compared to being alive in Christ, the Last Adam.

I've mentioned another reason why we can't be saved more than once.. and that's because we can only die twice.. are you going to explain that away also..? Furthermore, we are DEAD and crucified with Christ.. that's a simple biblical fact which you will also probably ignore..

I am a member of the church of Christ.

The father said of the prodigal he was dead and is alive again. Dead and alive refr to his spirtual conditon. So he was spiritually alive when he was with his father, died spiritually when he left and was alive again when he returned. Has nothing to do with Adam.

How/why was Simon commanded to repent and he sis repent when it was not supose to be possible?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I read his post, and did not hear him say that a Christain is to be disobedient? Have you ever failed to obey the Lord?



1Jn 1:8



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The context in Jn 10 shows that man is faithful to God by a continued, sustained hearing and following. As ong as man hears and follow Christ God is faithful not to let him be snatched out of his hand.

The issue is can one remain in God's hand if he quits being faithful in his hearing and following of Christ?

 

[heymikey80]

Re: Saved ONCE...

Lk 15:24 "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found."

The son could be alive AGAIN only if he were alive before. The son did not physically die in the parable so when verse 24 speaks of him being dead and alive again it is speaking to his spiritual state. He was spiritually alive when he was with his father, he left and became spiritually dead, he returned repenting and wa spiritually alive again.

Some have suggested to me that he never became lost, yet that cannot explain away that he was called "dead" spiritually. It also suggest one can spend his money on harlots, live in fornication and still be saved which completely goes against what Paul said in 1 Cor 6:9 where fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is a parable. Let's start there. The "nice story" has a context: people heard and understood the story as a story. It relates quite well to the concepts of disowning and emigrating to another nation, in the terminology of the day.

As I pointed out, one legal explanation is that of disowning.

The whole idea that you have to have a completely physical answer, otherwise it's spiritual allegory, that's baseless. The kid ran off to another country. As far as the father's concerned, the kid had left the family, the clan, the country. He was for all intents and purposes no longer a son: he was dead, in legal status. He was dead, in familial status. Plus, his way of life indicated he repudiated his religion.

Even you must admit that denying and betraying Jewish religion results in your treatment as "dead". Not a generation ago orthodox Jews held funerals for converts to other religions.

Heb 6 speaks of those that:

--once enlightened

--tasted of the heavenly gift

--made partakers of the Holy Ghost

--tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come

The Hebrew is talking of those in a saved position, for me to deny that is to simply deny the bible.

So to you someone without faith, can be considered saved? Because nobody's said this one has faith in Christ.

The Hebrew says of these saved people "If they shall fall away". How can they fall away if they were never saved?

They fell away from the practices described, clearly. They never got to the point of faith, as you've already noticed.

Those never saved have always been fallen and have nothing to fall from. Logically for you to fall out of a tree you must first climb up in the tree so logically for one to fall away he must first be in a position of salvation to fall from.

In falling from a tree one is also falling away from the top of the tree -- even if he didn't reach the top.

You post "One might presume that the Spirit of God leads people to respond to the commands of God,"

..and one might presume wrong.

But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:29 Circumcision of the heart is by the Spirit of God.

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Rom 8:11 No qualification. No "if you allow it".

Peter commanded Simon repent and the command implies that Simon had both the ability and responsibility within himself to obey this command.

You're leaving off the question I challenged you with.

Didn't God command the Israelites to follow the Law?

BTW, one of the early places it's found, this idea that a command implies the ability to obey it, comes from Pelagius.

Simon did not need any miraculous intervention of the Holy Ghost in order for him to repent. If the only way one could repent is if the Holy Ghost has to intervene then no repentance would due to the Holy Ghost failing to interevene.

"He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it." Or are you saying repentance isn't a good work, now? Can't have it both ways!

If you're now persuaded to the idea that repentance isn't a work: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

 

[heymikey80]

I have been told by some that Simon and Judas sinning prove they were never truly saved.

Well, maybe you ought to query them more to find out the reason why they said that? Because I don't know anyone but Christian perfectionists who hold to such an idea, and they would never embrace the doctrine of eternal security.

 

[Mitspa]

The context in Jn 10 shows that man is faithful to God by a continued, sustained hearing and following. As ong as man hears and follow Christ God is faithful not to let him be snatched out of his hand.

The issue is can one remain in God's hand if he quits being faithful in his hearing and following of Christ?

Again have you always been faithful? to the teachings of Christ? and I heard nothing in "that post" that in any way suggested being unfaithful to hear and obey God!

 

[Danus]

We have to work for it. I know you believe in the writings of Charles Spurgeon and have bolstered that John Calvin makes some good arguments but faith requires work...I was taught as a child about God and believed it because I heard. If nobody ever taught you anything, how would you get faith? Did you just wake up one day and had faith. It requires a work. Everybody thinks everything is a gift. If that were the case then we would all go to heaven and wouldn't be having this discussion.

"Agree" would be a better word when talking about Spurgeon and what I think of him. But this is about the security of ones salvation.

The OP says no one can know, I guess and for some I might agree that, but for those who have faith, it's not an issue.

Here is where you contradict yourself...you said faith is a gift quoting Charles Spurgeon but then you said you asked for it. That is a work. If you don't ask for something you don't get it. When people read man made doctrine in bits and pieces that is where the bible gets twisted. You try to blend the writings of men with the bible, a perfect book to teach us everything we need to know. If we obey.

Well, you are the one asking where to get faith. Faith is a gift from God. I never asked anyone how to get it, but I have pointed to God as the source to answer you question. Take it or leave it. Working for faith, as you have suggested, means making some self effort to be good I guess and God will reward you for your worthiness. That's not faith in God. That's faith in ones self. So either you have a different meaning of working for faith, or that's exactly what you mean.

 

[Danus]

I started making a few notes this morning at the office when I first read this thread. I'm glad to see it's grown as much as it has.

I'd like to address the title; "The False Security of Eternal Security." False?


It's interesting to me how some don't see their salvation as much. It's as if it's hardly there, if at all, or the power of God. I think if anyone feels they are not saved, or not sure, or might be, but don't know, or feel they've lost it; They should question their salvation. Question it hard.

I have to wonder what type of faith it is that does not believe, or can't believe, in what God says, or the promises he's made. Not picking on anyone, Not pointing fingers. Doubt is an issue. I understand that.

Personally, I would not call that faith at all. I would not even call that a small faith, because I started with a small faith. I think all anyone needs is a small faith. In fact, Christ eluded to this several times. In Matthew 17:20; (NIV) 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”. Notice how Christ points out a small faith then talks about having a small faith. he's pointing out a real small faith vs a man made small faith.

We see it again in Luke 17:6; (NIV); 6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you."

I have never literally dug up a stump, or moved a mound of dirt with my faith, but that's OK, because I totally get what Jesus means by faith as small as a mustard seed. He said this to illustrate the power that faith from God has in us. I understand that. I understand that because I understand my faith. I understand what it was to have none, and how powerful and irresistible it is to have just that little bit.

When I was a kid forced to attend UMYF camp (United Methodist Youth Fellowship), our councilors would lead everyone in singing this familiar song; "It only takes a spark", .......... to get a fire going." Anyone remember that one? ugg. Being kids, we'd change the words sometimes. However, I look back on that, and the moment I received my faith, I completely understood what that song meant. I love that song. It's true, and what a perfect illustration of what faith is. It is like a spark that gets a fire going.

I knew in a moment that my own salvation is a done deal, and that there was no turning back. That state of saved, that moment of understanding and revelation, is irresistible and there is no going back. I knew it based on the known nature of man, which I clearly see in myself, and the clear promises of God that are replete throughout the bible.

Although the Calvin view of eternal security is "described " in the last letter of the TULIP acronym, the understanding of eternal security is emanated throughout the full understanding of faith, grace, mercy and such.

The P in TULIP stands for the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. In line with the totality of the reformed theology and its focus on God’s sovereign actions, this would perhaps be better entitled Perseverance of the Lord since it is He who keeps the believer until their moment of glory. A believer may backslide and sin but this view states that the believer cannot fall away completely from grace of God, and they will persevere until the end and be saved.

Eternal security in Calvin’s theology must be understood in the context of the entire framework, as all of the points are logically connected. The elect (the only humans who God chooses to redeem) will be the recipients of the persevering power introduced by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. These believers will be kept in the power of the Spirit and are eternally secure. Calvin words it this way:

"God, who is rich in mercy, from his immutable purpose of election, does not wholly take away his Holy Spirit from his own, even in lamentable falls; nor does he so permit them to glide down that they should fall from the grace of adoption and the state of justification; or commit the “sin unto death,” or against the Holy Spirit; that, being deserted by him, they should cast themselves headlong into eternal destruction. So that not by their own merits or strength, but by the gratuitous mercy of God, they obtain it, that they neither totally fall from faith and grace, nor finally continue in their paths and perish."

We can call this Calvin if you guys want, but this is a principal of the good news. This is biblical truth and many scriptures speak to the eternal salvation of the believer, those with real faith from God, not from themselves.

read it for yourselves, The unbroken chain of salvation found in Romans 8:29-39. John 10:27-29. Romans 8:38-39. Ephesians 1:3-14. 1 Peter 1:3-5, Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 7:25, ....when we are saved, we are given faith to know believe and to know we are saved, and anyone who ask God with an open heart can know they are saved, be saved, and have salvation, and the security that that will never be taken away. It is life changing.

Anyone trying to improve themselves through Christianity, well good luck to you, but if you are seeking a new you in God, a you purchased by Christ, a real relationship with the one who loves you, that can easily be had simply bu giving up your efforts and asking for the faith in Christ we are to have to be saved.

It is not what you are doing, or have done. It is about what God can do, is doing and have done for you.

You're then suggesting that a Christian can quit hearing and following Christ, Jn 10:27 quit coming to Christ, Jn 6:37 yet still be saved.....which is not possible at all.

I'm not sure what your talking about Bass, but keep in mind, you're the one that does not and can not know you are saved. You said so. You're the one who says you have no security in eternal security. You said it's false. I'm simply trying to help you with your doubt.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

I am a member of the church of Christ.

Makes sense.. been there done that. They call themselves the one true church.. LOL.. and if you're not baptized in their assembly, then it doesn't count.. doesn't get much more legalistic than this imo.

The father said of the prodigal he was dead and is alive again. Dead and alive refr to his spirtual conditon. So he was spiritually alive when he was with his father, died spiritually when he left and was alive again when he returned. Has nothing to do with Adam.

Parables are earthly stories which describe heavenly truths... and if you can't see that all in the first Adam are condemned and that all in Christ are justified, then I'm sorry.. keep on listening to the one true church of Christ.

How/why was Simon commanded to repent and he sis repent when it was not supose to be possible?

Repentance unto salvation is what Heb 6 is speaking of.. not repenting of various sins in our lives.. we all need to repent many times in life.. although that's clearly not what Heb 6 is speaking of.. and Esau is an example given.. even though he sought it with tears.

 

[rrowell]

"Agree" would be a better word when talking about Spurgeon and what I think of him. But this is about the security of ones salvation.

The OP says no one can know, I guess and for some I might agree that, but for those who have faith, it's not an issue.

It is a real issue if you think you have it, and you really don't.

Well, you are the one asking where to get faith. Faith is a gift from God. I never asked anyone how to get it, but I have pointed to God as the source to answer you question. Take it or leave it. Working for faith, as you have suggested, means making some self effort to be good I guess and God will reward you for your worthiness. That's not faith in God. That's faith in ones self. So either you have a different meaning of working for faith, or that's exactly what you mean.

It comes from God, but he does not just pop it in your head, here is where it comes from:

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If you did not get it this way, then you just think you have it!

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

Let me remind you of your words used.

Originally Posted by Cassian
All men were given the Gift of salvation, salvation from death. Christ freed all mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

Yes, death, the curse, our mortality that we all inherited through Adam. This has nothing to do with your individual salvation which is union with God.

That's your quote. That's Universal Salvation, and it's not allowed in here. OK?
If you want to discuss Infused righteousness, which you alluded to then go ahead. You did fine with that.

I think you better go back and study some more. I don't beleive you even have a grasp of what salvation scripture is even speaking about because you are confusing the two.

YOu obviously don't read well either, since the quote was not universal salvation, but universal salvation from death. If this is a heresy of scripture then this is not a Christian forum. Christians for 2000 years have believed in the Incarnation of Christ, its salvfic content and the result that all men would be raised in the last day. For your information that phrase is part of both historcial creeds, Nicene and the Apostles Creed. Now, you may not hold to these creeds, but they hold to scripture. The Incarnation is also part of those Creeds and the Incarnation withstood three assults with false teachings at three different Ecumenical Councils. I would like to you prove that the Incarnation, the recapitulation, or reconciling of the world is not scriptural and heresy.

That is infused righteousness. A belief that one works with God to become righteous, and thus saved from condemnation. You can discuss this as your position. You can't logically hold both Universal-ism and infused righteousness, but you can't discuss Universal Salvation in here, because we don't allow it.

Actually as I have stated it both have been the teaching of scripture since the beginning.
In fact, what you call infused righteousness is impossible unless Christ first overcame death through His Incarnation for the world. Have you ever read Heb 2:12-16, or I Cor 15:22 and the other texts I gave earlier?

That you think I hold to universal salvation is your misunderstanding, not mine. I might also add that true Universalist do hold to both as you infer it to mean, which even shows more of your ignorance of the terms.

And it is just amazing that you would then hold to a doctrine, eternal security, based on a man made supposition of predestination doctrine into scripture which is the root of eternal security.

 

[Mitspa]

Danus,



Yes, death, the curse, our mortality that we all inherited through Adam. This has nothing to do with your individual salvation which is union with God.



I think you better go back and study some more. I don't beleive you even have a grasp of what salvation scripture is even speaking about because you are confusing the two.

YOu obviously don't read well either, since the quote was not universal salvation, but universal salvation from death. If this is a heresy of scripture then this is not a Christian forum. Christians for 2000 years have believed in the Incarnation of Christ, its salvfic content and the result that all men would be raised in the last day. For your information that phrase is part of both historcial creeds, Nicene and the Apostles Creed. Now, you may not hold to these creeds, but they hold to scripture. The Incarnation is also part of those Creeds and the Incarnation withstood three assults with false teachings at three different Ecumenical Councils. I would like to you prove that the Incarnation, the recapitulation, or reconciling of the world is not scriptural and heresy.



Actually as I have stated it both have been the teaching of scripture since the beginning.
In fact, what you call infused righteousness is impossible unless Christ first overcame death through His Incarnation for the world. Have you ever read Heb 2:12-16, or I Cor 15:22 and the other texts I gave earlier?

That you think I hold to universal salvation is your misunderstanding, not mine. I might also add that true Universalist do hold to both as you infer it to mean, which even shows more of your ignorance of the terms.

And it is just amazing that you would then hold to a doctrine, eternal security, based on a man made supposition of predestination doctrine into scripture which is the root of eternal security.

You can deny that you were trying to argue "universal salvation" but you got caught!:toofunny

 

[BornAgain]

"Agree" would be a better word when talking about Spurgeon and what I think of him. But this is about the security of ones salvation.

The OP says no one can know, I guess and for some I might agree that, but for those who have faith, it's not an issue.



Well, you are the one asking where to get faith. Faith is a gift from God. I never asked anyone how to get it, but I have pointed to God as the source to answer you question. Take it or leave it. Working for faith, as you have suggested, means making some self effort to be good I guess and God will reward you for your worthiness. That's not faith in God. That's faith in ones self. So either you have a different meaning of working for faith, or that's exactly what you mean.

I have to work at my faith, keeping strong since we are all sinners. It would be great if we could be good people without trying. My relationship and faith has grown because I work at it. So I guess it would be a working faith. I read, pray, study and have grown and continue to. It is like anything, if you don't take care of something and nurture it what happens to it? I don't say I have faith in myself, I cannot do anyting without God. He has blessed me in many ways but I do have a lot of weaknesses I have to contiually work at and ask for strength so my life is completely dependent upon God. I reminds me of this scripture..

But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Matt 9:22 (KJV)

the woman is described as having an issue of blood twelve years. She had faith in Jesus' power to heal her. Her faith in Jesus' power to heal her was so great that she thought that if she could but just touch his garment or the fringe on his garment she could be made whole. Such a faith moved her to press her way through the crowd to Jesus and stretch forth her hand that she might touch his garment. She had heard of Jesus and believed that she would be cured by touching the border of his garment. She did this. "Daughter, be of good cheer; thy faith hath made thee whole." Her faith had brought her to Jesus; it had caused her to go through the crowds to reach him, and now she was blessed by the recognition of her faith and a complete cure of her ailment. Her faith had been rewarded by the restoration of her health. Her faith was not the source of the healing, but it brought her into touch with Jesus who had the power to heal her.

 

[Danus]

I have to work at my faith, keeping strong since we are all sinners. It would be great if we could be good people without trying. My relationship and faith has grown because I work at it. So I guess it would be a working faith. I read, pray, study and have grown and continue to. It is like anything, if you don't take care of something and nurture it what happens to it? I don't say I have faith in myself, I cannot do anyting without God. He has blessed me in many ways but I do have a lot of weaknesses I have to contiually work at and ask for strength so my life is completely dependent upon God. I reminds me of this scripture..

But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Matt 9:22 (KJV)

the woman is described as having an issue of blood twelve years. She had faith in Jesus' power to heal her. Her faith in Jesus' power to heal her was so great that she thought that if she could but just touch his garment or the fringe on his garment she could be made whole. Such a faith moved her to press her way through the crowd to Jesus and stretch forth her hand that she might touch his garment. She had heard of Jesus and believed that she would be cured by touching the border of his garment. She did this. "Daughter, be of good cheer; thy faith hath made thee whole." Her faith had brought her to Jesus; it had caused her to go through the crowds to reach him, and now she was blessed by the recognition of her faith and a complete cure of her ailment. Her faith had been rewarded by the restoration of her health. Her faith was not the source of the healing, but it brought her into touch with Jesus who had the power to heal her.

Thank you BornAgain, that clears up a little more for me to understand your view.

Please understand that the OP believes that one must "work" to be worthy of salvation, that salvation from God is merited to the individual based on how good they are. A salvation where God judges the individuals worthiness and thus grants them the prize and honor of being saved. That's what is meant when we say "works based salvation". In this view, those who hold it, believe that at any given time God will take away salvation based on some dirty thought, or action deemed to be sinful by God, then they are no longer worthy of their prize.

What you are describing if that you "work" at your relationship with God, through prayer and bible study. Least I think that's what you are saying. That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about salvation, and how the OP believes that it's not eternal. That salvation is something they are either worthy of because they are good enough for it, or they are not and thus loose it.

In the end they believe God will judge them worthy for haven based solely on how good they are, not what Christ did for them. It's called "Infused Salvation". In this idea it is the believer that is good not Christ. Christ's' righteousness does nothing for those who believe this, it only opens a door way so to God.

Given that, care to comment on your salvation? Your name is "BornAgain" so surly God has added something to you to begin that relationship with him. Do you feel you are worthy by your good works to be saved and do you feel God might take it away if you do something wrong? Do you believe in Imputed righteousness of Christ onto you, or do you believe in Infused righteousness?

 

[BornAgain]

Thank you BornAgain, that clears up a little more for me to understand your view.

Please understand that the OP believes that one must "work" to be worthy of salvation, that salvation from God is merited to the individual based on how good they are. A salvation where God judges the individuals worthiness and thus grants them the prize and honor of being saved. That's what is meant when we say "works based salvation". In this view, those who hold it, believe that at any given time God will take away salvation based on some dirty thought, or action deemed to be sinful by God, then they are no longer worthy of their prize.

What you are describing if that you "work" at your relationship with God, through prayer and bible study. Least I think that's what you are saying. That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about salvation, and how the OP believes that it's not eternal. That salvation is something they are either worthy of because they are good enough for it, or they are not and thus loose it.

In the end they believe God will judge them worthy for haven based solely on how good they are, not what Christ did for them. It's called "Infused Salvation". In this idea it is the believer that is good not Christ. Christ's' righteousness does nothing for those who believe this, it only opens a door way so to God.

Given that, care to comment on your salvation? Your name is "BornAgain" so surly God has added something to you to begin that relationship with him. Do you feel you are worthy by your good works to be saved and do you feel God might take it away if you do something wrong? Do you believe in Imputed righteousness of Christ onto you, or do you believe in Infused righteousness?

Well, you said these are subjects off from the OP and do not want to derail from that but since you asked....

Yes, I did obtain something to begin my relationship with God. I was raised a Catholic and after attending the Church of Christ realized that that is the true Church. I was baptized and added to God's Church-not the church on earth but His heavenly Kingdom. That is where my name BornAgain came from. No good works I do will earn anything to earn salvation. I do what God commands us to do. If you are not familiar with the Church of Christ that is what Jesus founded when he said to Peter, upon this rock I build My Church. Not a church with another man's name on it. He did not say upon this rock with be Luther's church, or John the Baptist's church, etc.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matt 16:18 (KJV)

"I will build my church." What has been spoken of by Jesus as "the kingdom of heaven," "the kingdom of God," is here spoken of as "my church." means called out or assembly. Here "my church" means the assembly or people who have been called out of the world by the gospel of Christ.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:4-7 (KJV)

There is one birth; there are two elements, "water," and "the Spirit." Both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved. (Col. 1:13, 14.) To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for (unto) the remission of sins. (Heb. 11:6; Luke 13:3; Rom. 10:10; Acts 2:38.) To enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Since things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, it follows that to be born of water and the Spirit is to believe the gospel, repent of one's sins, confess one's faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission sins. John 3:5 figuratively states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38. To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny to baptism its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret "water" in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world, both ancient and modern. Henry Alford, one of the translators of the American Standard Version, wrote that "all attempts to get rid" of baptism in this passage, "have sprung from doctrinal prejudices by which the views of expositors have been warped," and Hooker, himself a writer of more than a hundred years ago, said that "of all ancient writers there is not one to be named who ever expounded this text otherwise than as implying external baptism." One is begotten of the Spirit by believing the Word which the Spirit gave, and born of water by coming forth from the waters of baptism.
The flesh produces fleshly life; the Spirit begets spiritual life. Nicodemus had known only the first; the second he must experience before he could enter and enjoy the blessings and benefits of the kingdom. The law that like begets like was and is a universal one and Nicodemus ought already to have perceived it, instead of marvelling at it. It is as immutable and unchangeable as the law of gravity.

There is where my belief in salvation lies to stay on topic here...so does this require work, I guess so.

 

[Free]

I think you better go back and study some more. I don't beleive you even have a grasp of what salvation scripture is even speaking about because you are confusing the two.

YOu obviously don't read well either, since the quote was not universal salvation, but universal salvation from death. If this is a heresy of scripture then this is not a Christian forum. Christians for 2000 years have believed in the Incarnation of Christ, its salvfic content and the result that all men would be raised in the last day. For your information that phrase is part of both historcial creeds, Nicene and the Apostles Creed. Now, you may not hold to these creeds, but they hold to scripture. The Incarnation is also part of those Creeds and the Incarnation withstood three assults with false teachings at three different Ecumenical Councils. I would like to you prove that the Incarnation, the recapitulation, or reconciling of the world is not scriptural and heresy.


That you think I hold to universal salvation is your misunderstanding, not mine. I might also add that true Universalist do hold to both as you infer it to mean, which even shows more of your ignorance of the terms.

For clarity: the concept that all humans will eventually be saved and spend eternity with God--that none will spend eternity in hell or be destroyed and cease to exist--is not to be discussed. This idea is known as Universal Reconciliation and as Universal Salvation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

So let's stay on topic and avoid any discussion of UR, as per the TOS.

 

[Cassian]

You can deny that you were trying to argue "universal salvation" but you got caught!:toofunny

seems you cannot read any better than Danus. It is universal salvation from death. Huge difference that what most protestants believe as saving from hell.

I am just amazed how many protestants actually do not believe in the Incarnation of Christ. YOu mouth the word apparently but have no understanding of what Christ actually accomplished by His Incarnation, death and resurrection. Did you actually read what I stated, of the texts I gave and the historical record of the Incarnation.

Do any of you actually understand the false doctrine of Universal salvation?