The Fate of Unbelieving Children

[Doulos Iesou]

i didn't ask for a demonstration i asked for chapter and verses.. end of discussion..

tob

I provided chapter and verses for my entire argument.

What have you provided? Nothing... this was never a discussion, it was an inquisition from one person (who never provided any kind of argument or evidence) to another (me, who defended everything I said with Scripture).

You're more then welcome to stop posting in this thread now.

 

[jeff77]

Well Jeff to answer your question this thread has been posted across the internet over the years at least 100 times that i know of it starts fights causes dissension and ends up in the dead threads receptacle.. the answer is there in black and white but people choose to follow their preconceived notions.. :yes

tob

Well, ok but I don't see the answer. Does every human being receive a chance to be saved regardless of age? I'm asking this cause I really don't know. Not to cause a fight. I mean what verse can that be found in?

 

[chessman]

Since I do know what God says is the fate of dead infants, it would be a lie for me to tell someone that I don’t know what’s in God’s word relative to the Fate of dead Infants.

1. Revelation 20:13 (LEB) And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and each one was judged according to their deeds.​

I think (correction, I know) that Jesus will judge each one according to their deeds. And I don’t mind saying that one bit. I don’t really care that I’ve been told all my life by other’s (that should know better) that dead infants go to hell, because salvation is only through Christ and they are born with original sin (Answer A, now at 37.5% vote here). Why do I not care anymore? Because the Biblical case for Answer A is nil and the case for Answer B seems clear. Exampled by all the Chapter/Verses that have been posted here for defense of A versus B. Nota, zero, nothing for A, even though numerous ones have been posted in support of B. Which, by the way some keep saying they haven’t been posted when we all know they have.

2. Luke 18:16 (LEB) But Jesus called them to himself, saying, “Allow the children to come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.​

If I hide the fact that I know Jesus once said that for to such [children] belongs the kingdom of God, from someone in desperate need of God’s word concerning their child, what type of loving person would I be to them? I’ve kind of assumed most of my life that most all people have heard this Scripture before, like I have. Maybe even sang the song “Jesus loves the little Children …”. I no longer assume they have done this. Too many, come to find out, have never even heard or read Luke 18:16 before. What a shame. And what a shame not to take a God given opportunity to share it with them. They can either believe it or not. That’s up to them. But what’s required of me is to share what I believe about Jesus with others.

3. Luke 23:34 (LEB) “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”​

I could tell them (without one iota of lie) that Jesus, while suffering and eventually dying physically (as their child has) atoned for other’s sins (sins that were NOT His own) and actually took on willingly the excruciating pain of raising up His body yet again, against the pressure of the nails ripping his skin, to gasp for another small breath of air so that He could speak yet another truth to the world. That is, to ask for the forgiveness of people that do not know what they are doing, just like their dead infant never knew right from wrong. And even though Jesus physically died, He now lives on in a new resurrected body, just as their infant will. What a shame not to share this when given the opportunity. A missed opportunity.

4. Genesis 18:25 (LEB) Far be it from you to do such a thing as this, to kill the righteous with the wicked, that the righteous would be as the wicked! Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do justice?​

I could tell them that even though other people (so called Biblically knowledgeable people) might say to them something like; “God is really just after all (even though your child will be sent to a Lake of Fire to Burn forever with all the wicked people) and that one day that will all somehow/someway make sense to you and you’ll agree that God is just in doing that”.

I could (and will and should) clarify to them that those people (saying those Biblically erroneous things) don’t know what they are talking about and they are wrong about God’s word.

I could then tell them that the Bible actually teaches; The Judge of all the Earth (God) will actually administer proper Justice with their infant and that their infant will NOT be treated as the wicked are treated and their infant will be treated according to their deeds. Since their infant never knew any right or wrong in their short physical life, Jesus loves them and to them belongs His Kingdom, His forgiveness and His eternal life. And not bat an eye in telling them that!

Now if I’m wrong about any of my responses to this family, now would be a grand time (and place here within A&T) to point out any Scriptures for A, C, D or E or point out any biblical problems with my take on the ones above that I believe support answer B (which by the way are not nearly all of the ones I could list for support of B).

 

[Deborah13]

Well, ok but I don't see the answer. Does every human being receive a chance to be saved regardless of age? I'm asking this cause I really don't know. Not to cause a fight. I mean what verse can that be found in?

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[for_his_glory]

Wrong question.

Can a person with no knowledge of right and wrong and no ability to do otherwise be held accountable for their actions?

Define accountable and you have your answer.


When they understand right from wrong and have the ability to choose to do good instead of evil.


This would be the opinion of those who think only believers children are redeemed, this would not be my position.


Does God find the innocent guilty?

According to Proverbs 17:15 he detests that.


Surely the judge of all the earth will do what is JUST.


And you suppose some infants have wicked intentions and others do not, and they could be held accountable for those intentions?


That's a bad translation, the word here should be translated "breath."

Why do you insist on twisting things that others say. The questions I was asking in the beginning of my post were that of generalization for others to ponder and think about. I guess I should have stated that.
There wasn't any wrong question, but you insist on making it your own...........hmm!!! I know what accountable means and don't feel the need to define it. I believe a child is sanctified by the believing parent as per 1Corinthians 7:14, but only until they come into the knowledge of sin.

Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. How can a child who is without the knowledge of sin be justified if they are not guilty of sin.

Yes, I believe some infants can have wicked intentions especially in how they are influenced in their younger years. Hitler comes to mind as one example. Are they created this way, no because God created them, but it's in the development stages that a child becomes influenced by those around them and will continue to develop within that. How can one who is innocent of sin be an abomination to God as Proverbs 17:15 is speaking about

 

[Deborah13]

Why do you insist on twisting things that others say. The questions I was asking in the beginning of my post were that of generalization for others to ponder and think about. I guess I should have stated that.
There wasn't any wrong question, but you insist on making it your own...........hmm!!! I know what accountable means and don't feel the need to define it. I believe a child is sanctified by the believing parent as per 1Corinthians 7:14, but only until they come into the knowledge of sin.

Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. How can a child who is without the knowledge of sin be justified if they are not guilty of sin.

Yes, I believe some infants can have wicked intentions especially in how they are influenced in their younger years. Hitler comes to mind as one example. Are they created this way, no because God created them, but it's in the development stages that a child becomes influenced by those around them and will continue to develop within that. How can one who is innocent of sin be an abomination to God as Proverbs 17:15 is speaking about

I'm really confused. How could a newborn baby, an infant even have evil intentions when God said about Jesus that Jesus had to grow in the knowledge of what was evil and His knowledge of what was good?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Why do you insist on twisting things that others say. The questions I was asking in the beginning of my post were that of generalization for others to ponder and think about. I guess I should have stated that.
There wasn't any wrong question, but you insist on making it your own...........hmm!!! I know what accountable means and don't feel the need to define it. I believe a child is sanctified by the believing parent as per 1Corinthians 7:14, but only until they come into the knowledge of sin.

Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. How can a child who is without the knowledge of sin be justified if they are not guilty of sin.

Yes, I believe some infants can have wicked intentions especially in how they are influenced in their younger years. Hitler comes to mind as one example. Are they created this way, no because God created them, but it's in the development stages that a child becomes influenced by those around them and will continue to develop within that. How can one who is innocent of sin be an abomination to God as Proverbs 17:15 is speaking about

I find it interesting that you accuse me of twisting what you said and then right after that provide essential information to understand the purpose of your questions, even saying, "I guess I should have stated that."

So it is my fault then for taking your questions and answering them... No twisting involved. And not yours for not properly communicating? I'm confused.

Also, how does an infant have evil intentions when the Bible says they don't know good or evil?

How do you suppose to know the intentions of Hitler as an infant? He had believing parents and was himself a Christian for the first part of his life.

Create a scenario where God would be Just in eternally punishing an infant whose parent was not a Christian.

Thanks.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm really confused. How could a newborn baby, an infant even have evil intentions when God said about Jesus that Jesus had to grow in the knowledge of what was evil and His knowledge of what was good?

Did Jesus learn from his parents or was it Gods Spirit already within him that taught him as even at the age of twelve, I believe it was, that he even questioned those teachers in the temple.
Can we truly know the mind of a child, even in infancy of what they can perceive by the influences around them, I don't know as only God would know. That is why I say only God knows the intents of the heart and how it develops.

 

[Deborah13]

This is what God thinks about the burning of innocents in fire.

Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Charles Spurgeon a five point TULIP said that he believed infants would be saved. He said he did not serve a God like Molech.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This is what God thinks about the burning of innocents in fire.

Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Charles Spurgeon a five point TULIP said that he believed infants would be saved. He said he did not serve a God like Molech.

Amen!!!

 

[Deborah13]

Did Jesus learn from his parents or was it Gods Spirit already within him that taught him as even at the age of twelve, I believe it was, that he even questioned those teachers in the temple.
Can we truly know the mind of a child, even in infancy of what they can perceive by the influences around them, I don't know as only God would know. That is why I say only God knows the intents of the heart and how it develops.

I'm confused again. If Jesus was not born without the knowledge of evil and the ability to choose good over evil then certainly no child is.

God says that each man is judged by his own sin.

Paul says that he did not know sin until the law came. What is the law, the knowledge of what is good and the knowledge of what is evil. Just what the scripture about Jesus says.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Can we truly know the mind of a child, even in infancy of what they can perceive by the influences around them, I don't know as only God would know. That is why I say only God knows the intents of the heart and how it develops.

Strange, you just gave a different answer a minute ago...

Yes, I believe some infants can have wicked intentions especially in how they are influenced in their younger years.

You don't know, yet you claim that some infants have wicked intentions.

Confused...

 

[for_his_glory]

I find it interesting that you accuse me of twisting what you said and then right after that provide essential information to understand the purpose of your questions, even saying, "I guess I should have stated that."

So it is my fault then for taking your questions and answering them... No twisting involved. And not yours for not properly communicating? I'm confused.

Also, how does an infant have evil intentions when the Bible says they don't know good or evil?

How do you suppose to know the intentions of Hitler as an infant? He had believing parents and was himself a Christian for the first part of his life.

Create a scenario where God would be Just in eternally punishing an infant whose parent was not a Christian.

Thanks.

The questions in the beginning of my post are that of what others have asked in the past. I thought by saying my answer would have clarified that it was not I that was asking. I will clarify better next time.

I said: My answer is that only God knows the intents of the heart even in that of a newborn as all of us are a creation of God made in His image and God breathed life into us making us a living soul.

One of the questions I posted, but was not asking was: Can one sin when one has no knowledge of sin? This is a general question that others ask.

You said: Wrong question, then you twisted it around to say what you wanted it to say like I said it wrong or something as you quoted, Can a person with no knowledge of right and wrong and no ability to do otherwise be held accountable for their actions?

Why did you say wrong question and then change it to meet your own understanding.

I do not know the intentions of anyone's heart, but can see what influences them from an early age to become who they are during their development. This is not about Hitler, but used his name to show how one can be influenced by others to become who they are in adulthood.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

A good scenario would be Exodus 13:15 where God allowed the firstborn males to be killed, but spared those first born that were His own.

This type of discussion can go in all different directions.

 

[jeff77]

This is what God thinks about the burning of innocents in fire.

Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Charles Spurgeon a five point TULIP said that he believed infants would be saved. He said he did not serve a God like Molech.

I say Amen too! Great post Deborah!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The questions in the beginning of my post are that of what others have asked in the past. I thought by saying my answer would have clarified that it was not I that was asking. I will clarify better next time.

So you revoke the accusation of me "always insisting on twisting your words?"

I said: My answer is that only God knows the intents of the heart even in that of a newborn as all of us are a creation of God made in His image and God breathed life into us making us a living soul.

Yet you supposed that you could understand the thoughts and intentions of Hitler as an infant.

You said: Wrong question, then you twisted it around to say what you wanted it to say like I said it wrong or something as you quoted, Can a person with no knowledge of right and wrong and no ability to do otherwise be held accountable for their actions?

Why did you say wrong question and then change it to meet your own understanding.

1) You did not make it clear that this was a rhetorical exercise when you posted this. You have admitted this since posting.
2) Regardless of whether or not the question was from you or was something someone asked you, it is still the wrong question in my eyes. I then presented what I believed to be a more relevant question. This was NOT twisting your words in any way, but was presenting what I believe would be a better question on the matter.

I do not know the intentions of anyone's heart, but can see what influences them from an early age to become who they are during their development. This is not about Hitler, but used his name to show how one can be influenced by others to become who they are in adulthood.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

What in particular are you alluding to in Hitler's early childhood? Are little children responsible for the errors they are taught by their parents?

A good scenario would be Exodus 13:15 where God allowed the firstborn males to be killed, but spared those first born that were His own.

Was this a punishment on the children themselves?

This type of discussion can go in all different directions.

Apparently.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm confused again. If Jesus was not born without the knowledge of evil and the ability to choose good over evil then certainly no child is.

God says that each man is judged by his own sin.

Paul says that he did not know sin until the law came. What is the law, the knowledge of what is good and the knowledge of what is evil. Just what the scripture about Jesus says.

IMO do you really think we can put Jesus in the same category with other children. Jesus was the word made flesh and I believe since he was that very Spirit of God in the flesh he would have already had that knowledge in him from birth and did not have to learn it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Strange, you just gave a different answer a minute ago...


You don't know, yet you claim that some infants have wicked intentions.

Confused...

I never said they have wicked intentions when they are first born, I said, Yes, I believe some infants can have wicked intentions especially in how they are influenced in their younger years.

 

[jeff77]

What is the age range of an infant?

 

[Deborah13]

Why do you insist on twisting things that others say. The questions I was asking in the beginning of my post were that of generalization for others to ponder and think about. I guess I should have stated that.
There wasn't any wrong question, but you insist on making it your own...........hmm!!! I know what accountable means and don't feel the need to define it.

I believe a child is sanctified by the believing parent as per 1Corinthians 7:14, but only until they come into the knowledge of sin.

Please consider these thoughts.

First that same scripture says the unbelieving spouse is also sanctified the same way the children are.
Is the unbelieving spouse saved?

Here again if we had more teachings from the OT we would have a better understanding.
Under Hebrew law if the parents of the children were not married under Hebrew law the children were considered to be bastards and could not serve in some positions among the people, such as a priest.
The marriage itself is holy before God.
So in a believer/nonbeliever marriage, the union is holy because of the believer and so are the spouse and the children are sanctified in this union. Those children cannot be considered bastards, to be outside of the Church in any way. They can be the leader of their teen group or any other job the Lord gives them. When they grow up they can be a preacher or whatever. The church cannot ostracize them.

So the whole idea that children somehow if they were to die will be saved because their parent or that their unbelieving spouse will be saved because of their believing spouse is just not true. There is no scripture that I know of that says any such thing. It would be inconsistent with every scripture about individual salvation.

If you see something that you believe I am incorrect about please don't hesitant to bring it to my attention. I am not infallible in any understanding that I may have.

Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. How can a child who is without the knowledge of sin be justified if they are not guilty of sin.

Yes, I believe some infants can have wicked intentions especially in how they are influenced in their younger years. Hitler comes to mind as one example. Are they created this way, no because God created them, but it's in the development stages that a child becomes influenced by those around them and will continue to develop within that. How can one who is innocent of sin be an abomination to God as Proverbs 17:15 is speaking about

 

[for_his_glory]

So you revoke the accusation of me "always insisting on twisting your words?"


Yet you supposed that you could understand the thoughts and intentions of Hitler as an infant.


1) You did not make it clear that this was a rhetorical exercise when you posted this. You have admitted this since posting.
2) Regardless of whether or not the question was from you or was something someone asked you, it is still the wrong question in my eyes. I then presented what I believed to be a more relevant question. This was NOT twisting your words in any way, but was presenting what I believe would be a better question on the matter.


What in particular are you alluding to in Hitler's early childhood? Are little children responsible for the errors they are taught by their parents?


Was this a punishment on the children themselves?


Apparently.

This is not about Hitler as I used him as an analogy to show how influences in our early childhood development whether they be good or evil can influence us as to be who we become in adulthood. He hated the Jews an annihilated them because he was taught they were not even people, but that of filthy pigs. Just as Paul persecuted Christians to death, including babies, and even did this in the name of God as this is what he was taught to do and am sure he was conditioned to do so from birth.

Exodus 13:15, Was not the punishment on the firstborn in Egypt when God had all the firstborn killed that were not his. This included newborns. So I have to conclude that not all babies will be with the Lord when they die. JMO

Just like the firstborn in Exodus, do you think God should have spared those babies that were not His own? Would not their own hearts become wick4ed towards God because of the influences of others.