The Fate of Unbelieving Children

[ezrider]

digging, I don't know if this fits in completely with this topic of discussion, but I stumbled across a scripture last night that I would like to share that you might consider it.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm taking about after the resurrection, how do you see things in your mind? Do you see these children as babies forever??

I'm pointing out the fact that people are judged by what they do in THIS life, not the next. Why would God raise an infant to life in order to give him opportunity to warrant punishment? Makes no sense on how that could possibly be the actions of a good God.

 

[Clover me]

digging, I don't know if this fits in completely with this topic of discussion, but I stumbled across a scripture last night that I would like to share that you might consider it.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Good point.

 

[Chopper]

Read Romans 5:12-21 Your answer is there. Let me know if you can't find it.

 

[for_his_glory]

its like this, our sins affect others right? the innocent suffer for our sins. if you are drunk, what is likely to happen. you kids become the same. did they deserve that as a judgement? no but you put that upon them. yes they will have to account for that sin but when they are too young to understand your codepency is a generational curse and that seed is planted. that is very much what the cross is about.

note what about the Egyptians boys who didn't die? did they deserve life? NO, but the parents choose to do Passover. that is very much about the cross. that is why I want to do the feast.

isiah 53, the lord was pleased to bruise him. so what did the Lord do to have His father be pleased to bruise him? or what is our sins that had to be placed upon him and God was pleased in that judgment? the later!



what was the offering for sins in the levitical manner of sacrifice of animals? death! so there is no other way to see that the Lord wanted to slay his only SON. JN 3:16! he was given to the world to be that perfect lamb.

Thank you for explaining this as I see what you were saying before

 

[for_his_glory]

Putting aside everything I have posted so far I went and did a deeper study in scripture and this is what I came up with.

God does not select before the womb who will spend eternity with Him or those who will spend eternity in the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he alone judges us, 2Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance, but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts are hardened.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adams sin was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included, Romans 5:12-18. Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Who taught a child to lie or be rebellious against their parents? It's that sin nature that causes a child to do this. Psalms 51:5 says, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The only thing God gave us at birth was His very breath (spirit) that made us a living soul and it's that breath that goes back to God when we die as he preserves it in judgment until the coming of the Lord, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

In the OT and NT God did specifically call out certain prophets by name (listed below) as he elected them before they were even formed in the womb. This does not make God a respecter of person, it just means they were called for Gods purpose as they were the Hebrew children of promise through the seed of Abraham being of that same covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3. We being formed in the womb as a Gentile and given the breath (spirit) of God for us to be a living soul can now through Christ Jesus be grafted into that seed of Abraham that we to can be a part of Gods covenant promises to that of a thousand generations.

Do all babies go to be with the Lord when they die? The answer is no. Remember, God only gives breath (spirit), but doesn't decide who a baby is born to. Two examples of babies that have died and also will be raised from the grave to stand in Gods white throne judgment all we have to do is look at the story of the Amalekites and their children in Deuteronomy 2:24-34. God even had the babies killed in battle as they would have also grown up to come against God and his people. It’s the same as the firstborn of the Egyptians in Exodus 11. God saved His own from being killed. This was all Gods judgment against those who come out against him. Just as today those babies that die, even though they have no knowledge of good and evil yet, are also those who will be trained to come against God.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Gods covenant children of promise in the OT and NT:
Isaiah - Isaiah 49:1
Jeremiah - Jeremiah 1:5
Isaac - Genesis 17:16; Gal 4:23
Jacob and Esau the twins - Genesis 25:23
Samson - Judges 13:5
John the Baptist - Luke 1:15
Paul - Galatians 1:15

 

[Clover me]

Good point.

I have to just have faith that God is ruling justly. He let a sinner like me come into his grace? I went 45 years of not serving him. My parents were not christian. I now have this wonderful experience leading my life. I think my God will do what he intends to do. He allowed them to leave this earth for a reason?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Putting aside everything I have posted so far I went and did a deeper study in scripture and this is what I came up with.

God does not select before the womb who will spend eternity with Him or those who will spend eternity in the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he alone judges us, 2Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance,

Agreed with you up to this point.

but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts are hardened.

Once they are raised, but we are talking about infants and small children who do not get beyond the years of innocence as referenced in Scriptures.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation.

The fact that people are held accountable for their sins absolutely taught in the Bible, and then we logically infer that because infants and small children do not know good or evil nor can they resist doing what is evil and choose the good, they cannot therefore be held accountable.

It is not a preconception, it is common sense and has been demonstrated in this thread several times. The fact that in all your "deep studying" that you did not address Deuteronomy 1:39 or Isaiah 7:16 is very telling.

Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil prior to the fall.. did they need a Savior at that time? If not, then why do infants and small children need one?

A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adams sin was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included,Romans 5:12-18.

I could get into a bigger discussion on Original Sin, which I think this will end up leading to. However, I will simply say this.

Every depiction of the final judgment shows each individual obtaining the punishment or reward for what THEY did in the body, whether good or evil. Since a child is unable to distinguish between the two, or choose one or the other they cannot be called to give an account for such actions and therefore should not be punished.

It's like asking a man who has been blind his whole life what a certain picture looks like and then punishing him for not knowing what it looks like.

Where there is inability, there is no responsibility.

Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

This is a generalization and hyperbole, often used by David. If this were teaching "original sin" wouldn't he be making this statement about everyone, but no he is referring only to the wicked.

I have to go eat lunch and will address the rest of your comments later.

 

[Clover me]

The son of the widow, the young girl, and Lazarus, were all raised from the dead in their same type of bodies they had before they died and eventually died again.
To me that is very different then a resurrection. Jesus was resurrected, He was not in the same type of body He had before He died.

I thought I read he still had the wounds? I have to go read it again

 

[reba]

Clover me

Luke 24 is a wonderful story of Jesus after His resurrection.... Lots of tidbits of info there...
Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

 

[Deborah13]

I thought I read he still had the wounds? I have to go read it again

You are correct about the wounds. There were holes. Flesh and bone.
But think about this. Mary did not recognize Him outside the tomb, she thought He was the gardener maybe.
He could appear in a room to the Apostles when all the doors and windows were locked.
And when He did they didn't know Him. Remember doubting Thomas.
Sorry. I've wondered many times where this dancing lock could be used. 2

 

[reba]

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed with you up to this point.


Once they are raised, but we are talking about infants and small children who do not get beyond the years of innocence as referenced in Scriptures.


The fact that people are held accountable for their sins absolutely taught in the Bible, and then we logically infer that because infants and small children do not know good or evil nor can they resist doing what is evil and choose the good, they cannot therefore be held accountable.

It is not a preconception, it is common sense and has been demonstrated in this thread several times. The fact that in all your "deep studying" that you did not address Deuteronomy 1:39 or Isaiah 7:16 is very telling.


Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil prior to the fall.. did they need a Savior at that time? If not, then why do infants and small children need one?


I could get into a bigger discussion on Original Sin, which I think this will end up leading to. However, I will simply say this.

Every depiction of the final judgment shows each individual obtaining the punishment or reward for what THEY did in the body, whether good or evil. Since a child is unable to distinguish between the two, or choose one or the other they cannot be called to give an account for such actions and therefore should not be punished.

It's like asking a man who has been blind his whole life what a certain picture looks like and then punishing him for not knowing what it looks like.

Where there is inability, there is no responsibility.


This is a generalization and hyperbole, often used by David. If this were teaching "original sin" wouldn't he be making this statement about everyone, but no he is referring only to the wicked.

I have to go eat lunch and will address the rest of your comments later.

First I will not discuss original sin as I already explained where that came from as in the first Adam. I believe I have showed with scripture the difference between those who were born from the seed of Abraham and how we as being Gentiles are grafted into that seed of Abraham through that of Christ Jesus. Those babies who were born of the Amalekites and the Egyptians never would come to know the goodness of God as they would have followed in their fathers footsteps of worshiping other gods. Just like many babies today that are born. There is no difference. This is why God allowed them to be killed along with the adults, but yet spared the firstborn of the seed of Abraham that also lived there.

Deuteronomy 1:39 these were the children of Gods covenant for a thousand generations. Isaiah 7:16 is speaking about Jesus alone who already had knowledge of good and evil even before the foundation of the world.

The fact that people are held accountable for their sins absolutely taught in the Bible.............I agree with this, but there is no age of accountability taught in scripture. Scripture never specifies any age and is only speculation if we try to. Just because we think it is common sense does not make the truth void in what God has already said. Logic does not take a higher standing over that of what God has already taught us.

Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil prior to the fall.. did they need a Savior at that time?.................not before the fall, but in their shame as one was already created in God from the foundation of the world and given the name Immanuel, or God be with us.

they cannot be called to give an account for such actions and therefore should not be punished..................Romans 14:12 begs to differ as it says all will give an account of himself to God, which includes babies and vs.13 goes on to say that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion for one to fall. If a baby has that stumbling block that keeps them from knowing the goodness of God like those babies of the Amalekites and the Egyptians then they will remain separated from God as even if they have the chance to grow they will seek out other gods.

Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

[for_his_glory]

You are correct about the wounds. There were holes. Flesh and bone.
But think about this. Mary did not recognize Him outside the tomb, she thought He was the gardener maybe.
He could appear in a room to the Apostles when all the doors and windows were locked.
And when He did they didn't know Him. Remember doubting Thomas.
Sorry. I've wondered many times where this dancing lock could be used. 2

2and leave it to you Deborah13 to find a place for it

 

[chessman]

I thought about mentioning this passage when the subject of what babies will look like in Heaven, but didn't because it seems slightly off topic to the OP's question of whether dead babies even can receive that gift [Heaven] or not, much less what they'll look like there.

But what the heck [] it's been on the table now for several posts:

Might want to check out the answer to this question:

1 Corinthians 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” ...

Die a seed, God gives you a body as He sees fit!

 

[jasonc]

so my sister renee aged 37 will die going to hell because she cant understand the bible. cant understand much and you couldn't teach who jesus is beyond that he is god and she would repeat that only because you or I told her that. if I said satan is god, and I taught her that she would repeat that. she is that low on iq. she cant grasp sin or hell or the savior. she is like a three year old.

 

[Deborah13]

Putting aside everything I have posted so far I went and did a deeper study in scripture and this is what I came up with.

A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adams sin was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included, Romans 5:12-18. Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Who taught a child to lie or be rebellious against their parents? It's that sin nature that causes a child to do this. Psalms 51:5 says, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The only thing God gave us at birth was His very breath (spirit) that made us a living soul and it's that breath that goes back to God when we die as he preserves it in judgment until the coming of the Lord, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

I'm confused....
First you say that children don't inherit their parents sin. Then you say we inherited Adam's sin. Did King David's son inherit the Original Sin and therefore is condemned as an unbeliever?

Then you quote King David who also said this about his son who was conceived in literal sin. The child died a physical death by God's hand. But.....

"2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
2Sa 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him."

Do all babies go to be with the Lord when they die? The answer is no. Remember, God only gives breath (spirit), but doesn't decide who a baby is born to. Two examples of babies that have died and also will be raised from the grave to stand in Gods white throne judgment all we have to do is look at the story of the Amalekites and their children in Deuteronomy 2:24-34. God even had the babies killed in battle as they would have also grown up to come against God and his people. It’s the same as the firstborn of the Egyptians in Exodus 11. God saved His own from being killed. This was all Gods judgment against those who come out against him. Just as today those babies that die, even though they have no knowledge of good and evil yet, are also those who will be trained to come against God.

Does scripture say those Amalekite babies will stand at the White Throne judgement?
Did God saved His own when He had them attacked by the Assyrians or the Babylonians?
Any time there is temporal war, innocents die temporal deaths.

 

[jasonc]

wrong vote for me. I meant the god is merciful.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Those babies who were born of the Amalekites and the Egyptians never would come to know the goodness of God as they would have followed in their fathers footsteps of worshiping other gods. Just like many babies today that are born. There is no difference. This is why God allowed them to be killed along with the adults, but yet spared the firstborn of the seed of Abraham that also lived there.

Do you extend this to ALL infants? Best to kill them rather than have them grow up and follow after their father's way?

Or that these children are therefore liable to some kind of eternal punishment for having been born into a certain family?

Is being Fathered by an Amalekite or Egyptian sufficient reason to condemn an infant eternally than if they were instead born to a Jew or Christian?

Deuteronomy 1:39 these were the children of Gods covenant for a thousand generations.

What?

“And the LORD heard your words and was angered, and he swore, 35 ‘Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land that I swore to give to your fathers, 36 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh. He shall see it, and to him and to his children I will give the land on which he has trodden, because he has wholly followed the LORD!’ 37 Even with me the LORD was angry on your account and said, ‘You also shall not go in there. 38 Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. 39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. 40 But as for you, turn, and journey into the wilderness in the direction of the Red Sea.’ Deuteronomy 1:34-40 (ESV)

This is referring to the next generation of Israelites, this is revealed even more so by the statement, "who you said would become a prey." They said this in Numbers 14:3.

Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become a prey. Would it not be better for us to go back to Egypt?” Numbers 14:3 (ESV)

God is alluding back to this time when they said this, and he said these little ones, who today (they were alive at that moment) have no knowledge of good or evil shall go in there.

This is definitively proven.

Isaiah 7:16 is speaking about Jesus alone who already had knowledge of good and evil even before the foundation of the world.

You understand that Isaiah's prophecies often had a dual fulfillment. This one in particular referring to Shear-jashub his son. It helps if you read the entirety of the Chapter and the surrounding context.

The fact that people are held accountable for their sins absolutely taught in the Bible.............I agree with this, but there is no age of accountability taught in scripture.

How does a child who is innocent and cannot knowingly commit sin accountable for his actions?

Do you understand what accountability is?

Scripture never specifies any age and is only speculation if we try to. Just because we think it is common sense does not make the truth void in what God has already said. Logic does not take a higher standing over that of what God has already taught us.

We are logically employing the Scriptures, as it doesn't directly speak to the fate of unbelieving infants. It apparently didn't vex the writers enough to include such I think which I believe is because it would have been quite simple for them to work out.

Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil prior to the fall.. did they need a Savior at that time?.................not before the fall, but in their shame as one was already created in God from the foundation of the world and given the name Immanuel, or God be with us.

What?

they cannot be called to give an account for such actions and therefore should not be punished..................Romans 14:12 begs to differ as it says all will give an account of himself to God,

In Romans 14, who is the "us"?

Also, how does would one give an account for the actions of an infant.

"Child, why did you steal the cookie from the cookie jar?" the resurrected infant, now adult responds, "uh I was a baby and the cookie jar was put within my grasp and I had no concept of individual property." "NO EXCUSE!!!"

It's like one has to forget everything they know about children in order to embrace this belief.

If a baby has that stumbling block that keeps them from knowing the goodness of God like those babies of the Amalekites and the Egyptians then they will remain separated from God as even if they have the chance to grow they will seek out other gods.

They are GUILTY of being born into an Amalekite and Egyptian family, therefore they are liable to eternal punishment?

Disgusting.

 

[chessman]

... the difference between those who were born from the seed of Abraham and ...
Those babies who were born of the Amalekites and the Egyptians never would come to know the goodness of God as they would have followed in their fathers footsteps of worshiping other gods.
...
even if they have the chance to grow they will seek out other gods.

.

It seems for_his_glory is for_his_prophecy.

What type of believers were Abraham's mother and father?