The following is a post I wrote on this subject from another board...I hope it's alright if I place it here. The italic/bold portions are another poster I was responding to about this subject. Mutz, those verses I was thinking about are in here, and I also wanted to mention that God refers to children in the womb as babies...and that John was given the Holy Spirit in the womb. The Lord bless.
In our legal system there is that axiom "ignorance is no excuse of the law" - meaning that one can be guilty of a crime that they did not know was a crime. The Calvinist understanding (and to a certain point the Roman Catholic understanding) of Original sin, fits that "axiom".
I would say, that even our law treats children differently, and an infant would not even be considered in this, since they would never be guilty of a crime. God sees it the same way. Innocents, though born in inquity, are not guilty of willful acts of sin, and will not be judged by them. Jesus' redemption of His people corporately, of their disbelief and slavery to sin, is what pardons these little innocents. I will explain this fully as I go, please bear with me. I use the term, 'innocents', because as you will see from these passages, that's what God calls them.
Jeremiah 19:4-7 (KJV)
4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.
7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
Jeremiah 2:33-35 (KJV)
33 Why trimmest thou thy way to seek love? therefore hast thou also taught the wicked ones thy ways.
34 Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.
35 Yet thou sayest, Because I am innocent, surely his anger shall turn from me. Behold, I will plead with thee, because thou sayest, I have not sinned.
God does not hold these young ones guilty of willful sin, but they are still born in iniquity. God pardons this through Christ, and calls them His. So, we know they belong to Him.
What I am saying is that I do not believe God operates in that manner. Are we held "guilty" of something that we did not know was "sin"? I would suggest that this is where a child falls into. A child has no concept of what "sin" is, or that what they are or are not doing is "sin". However, if the Calvinistic understanding is correct, it really doesn't matter if they (infants, children, newborns) know what sin is, they are already held guilty of the sin of Adam.
I do not believe that God operates in that manner either, as I said. God will not judge infants, young children, and people of infantile minds for willful sin (they haven't committed any), but I do believe that they are all 'guilty' of orginal sin because they are sons of Adam. That is why Jesus was NOT born of Adam, but of God, because He also would have been guilty of Adam's sin, born in inquity, and prone to willful acts of sin. Mary, did not give Jesus His Seed, the Holy Spirit did, because Adam's seed can not live a sinless life, it's enslaved to sin. God has given these young ones mercy automatically according to His Word, and it's through Jesus alone. They are redeemed of Adam's sin...being his seed, but will not be judged for willful acts, of which they have not committed. Btw, I do not believe this applies to heathen nations of adults who have not heard the Gospel, and I can explain that if you like in another thread.
What I am suggesting is that when Adam ate of the fruit, humanity became aware of the concept of "sin", that they had the ability to reject God. And let's remember, Adam and Eve were not the first 'creation' to sin - Lucifer was. Adam and Eve, once they bit into the fruit, became "self aware" - and isn't that the root of "sin" - Self. Smack dab in the middle of "sin" is I.
Adam's sin was not being self-aware...though that was part of the consequence of it. Adam's sin was disbelief in God's Word, and willful disobedience against God. Innocent children are still of Adam's seed. If they were not 'guilty' then they would not die or get sick until they were of an age that God could hold them responsible personally for willful acts of sin. No, they have been born into sin, they are born to a people who are not reconciled to God, and are enemies by nature. I will elaborate more on this, and provide scripture.
I am not sure if I would use the word "innocent". I know I would not use the word "perfect". In fact, I would not say that prior to disobedience that Adam and Eve were created "perfect". I believe that only the Divine is perfect. Now, is that to say that the Divine created something "imperfect" - no. I do not believe that the perfection of Divinity can be applied to humanity as we exist now.
I would use the word innocent, because God uses this word when He descibes these young ones, and He also talks about how they belong to Him...even those of heathen nations, and those who may have died because of His judgement on a nation. Adam and Eve were born innocent, but the evil one distorted Truth, deceived, and tempted...their innocence before God was lost, and thus separation from Him was the result.
Perhaps "naive" would be a good word. That they are born without knowledge of sin, but have the "ability" to learn. But because we are "self aware" - we will choose the self. However, once we have devoted ourselves, believed in Christ and His redemption, we have the ability to choose self or Christ. The trouble I have with saying that humanity as a "sin nature" is multi-faceted:
I would have to say, they are born in inquity, because the Word says they are, but they are God's people, because it also says they belong to Him. They are self-centered right from the get go, because it is a consequence of Orginal sin, which is passed through Adam's seed.
First - it gives the impression that I have no choice, that without fail I will always choose sin. As a believer, this is false. Or Christ could not tell the woman at the well, "Go, sin no more".
There is a sin that leads to death (unbelief), and God has given those who willfully reject Him over to it completely...these will die in their sin (unbelief), and be judged based on their willful sins that they themselves have committed. They are among the guilty (unreconciled enemies of God), and will be held guilty (also willful sinners). Certainly, as believers, we have more power over our flesh to some extent post-belief, and as we grow we gain even more, we are to turn away from sin more and more. We are walking away from sin in the direction of God, and we are reconciled to God. I would say that means, think differently, walk in the Spirit, consecrate ourselves to God daily, repent, obey, etc. However, it is the belief in God that has brought us to Christ, to redemption, and to be restored to God. It's also belief that keeps us striving to be holy as He is holy, but we are clothed in His righteousness and this is why we shall stand in that day (we are no longer guilty of the sin of unbelief), and we will be rewarded for works done in Christ, but our sin will be no more. (willful sin is washed in the blood) We will not be judged for willful sin, because we do not sin willfully having the law written on our hearts, and having the Holy Spirit in us. You are free from sin (from being an unbeliever condemned to death), and from the curse of sin (being a willful sinner who is lawless), and you can walk in the Spirit sinless...but your flesh is still flesh, and sinful, and you will always war with it while in the flesh...death will ultimately release us from this last stronghold.
Second - if a child/baby has a sin nature (in other words, is already guilty of sin) how can Christ say that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to little children?
Because it does. These 'innocents' belong to God already, they DO have the Kingdom of God already, because through Jesus they have been reconciled unto God. The don't have to worry about willful acts being judged, they don't have any. If Jesus hadn't died, then they would have still been of a people unreconciled to God...they would have suffered condemnation and death right along with the rest of us. Jesus bought them with a price, that's why God calls them His.
Ezekiel 16:20-21
20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.
Luke 18:15-17
15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Notice here in the next verse, God judges Jeroboam. His entire family would die, and not be buried properly, but left for the wild things to eat in shame. God finds something good in Jeroboam's infant son. He would still die, but naturally, and given a prince's burial. He was not left for the wild things. So guilty because he was Jeroboam's child, and receiving the judgement placed on the family, but not having taken part in willful sin acts that Jeroboam performed, he was spared the disgrace. I believe he belonged to God, and that's why.
1Kings 14:12-14
12 Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.
13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
14 Moreover the LORD shall raise him up a king over Israel, who shall cut off the house of Jeroboam that day: but what? even now.
I think this same idea applies to children of heathen nations too. God judged these nations, but I believe those infants that the Israelites were ordered to kill were given mercy, and belonged to God. They were judged with the nation and put to death, being of born of enemies of God. But, as innocents, and being God's, they are redeemed by Christ. Since they are not guilty of willful sin, they will not be judged for the acts of those nations.
Mr Calvin should have studied the Word more on this matter, because it is only through God sending the Holy Spirit to these little one's that this washing can happen...they did not choose it (not being able to), it is a gift bestowed by God, a work of grace alone, and an example of God's mercy. This would actually prove His points to some degree...too bad he missed it, but he was only a man afterall.
Thirdly - Isaiah teaches that it is MY sins, it is MY iniquities that separates me from God - not the sin of Adam.
Isaiah is correct, and it was also his faith in the Christ to come that restored Him to God. Adam's sin affected Isaiah, even when Isaiah was an infant and didn't deserve it. Scripture plainly teaches this. He was in bondage, and then when He came to age, he was guilty of willful sin acts for which he was destined to be judged. Jesus' death on the cross redeemed him, even though Jesus had not yet died, and Isaiah did not deserve redeeming. Now, Isaiah's willful sin acts will not be imputed to him, because of faith. He was redeemed as one of God's people, who began in slavery to sin, and had his willful sin washed in the blood of the Lamb. We are all born in inquity. This is also found in the Word, and we have to take the whole counsel of God into account. Isaiah speaks of only one aspect of man's condition, but the Bible shows us there is more to it. David reveals both here. He is a willful sinner against God, and deserves judgment, but notice verse 5, he was also shapen and conceived in sin.
Psalms 51:3-5 (KJV)
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Paul refers to our nature being children of wrath prior to belief. This seems to indicate more than my willful sin to me...it's a nature. We can not control our nature.
Ephesians 2:3 (KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Adam sinned, and all were affected, we became slaves to sin, and sinners. Freedom from slavery came through Jesus, and forgiveness of sins as well. Jesus did not sin, and all were affected (He died for All), so redemption entered in, and we who were formerly slaves to sin, through belief, have been freed from it, and are no longer guilty of our willful sins (we are washed in the blood) or the Sin of unbelief which leads to death. (we are reconciled) Those who remain in unbelief, have rejected the redemption willfully (they have no excuse for unbelief and remain unreconciled even though Jesus' blood was enough to save them...they will have their sin imputed to the because of this), and remain slaves to sin, and it's master. They will die, due to unbelief (remaining unreconciled to God as enemies condemned through Adam's sin), and will be judged for their willful sins acts (they have no washing in the blood).
Innocents, who are already His because of Christ's blood buying them out of slavery, have not sinned willfully, and will not be judged for willful sin. There is no law with these, and sin will not be imputed. They had not Torah, nor a law of the heart.
Romans 5:10-21
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Fourthly - while we do not have a Jewish faith per se, if Original Sin was a biblical doctrine, why wasn't it taught in Judaism? Why was the Catholic Church the first to teach of this "doctrine"?
I am not sure why you think this, because it is in the Jewish teachings that are in the Bible. Perhaps this is some cultural thing, which we can not trust fully, unless God has established His Truth in accordance with the whole counsel of His Word in the culture for a purpose. As far as the Catholic Church teaching this doctrine, perhaps God used them to show us this Truth more clearly in this area. Anyway, what trumps all of this, is that Scripture teaches it's both.
To suggest that I am born INTO sin, takes me out of it. The word "sinned" in Romans 5:12 is an ACTIVE verb. It means that I committed sin, not that I am being guilty of someone else's sin. I am guilty of MY sin, because I was the one that SINNED.
You are guilty, you have willfully sinned against God, because you were born a slave to sin. You did not believe on Christ from the womb, and Scripture teaches that you have were formed in inquity remember? You are free from sin, now (reconciled to God), and will not be judge for your past willful sin due to Christ. (He has washed them away) You also are now born of the Spirit, and have the law written on your heart...your sin is of the flesh now, and not willful (those sins that are judged and imputed to man) or leading to death as one who is an enemy of God. (Unbelief)
If anything rejecting the concept of "original sin" has shown me MORE my need of the saving grace of Christ, not less.
I think this is because you think one must cancel the other out, and that you have a heart to take responsibility for your own sin. I admire your motive, but your belief is wrong according to the Word. When we understand our need for the Savior is beyond even our own sins, but a redeeming of a people who were once enemies corporately, a people in slavery much like the Israelites were in Egypt, we understand more how, as God's people, we are a body, The Bride of Christ, purchased and set apart. Besides, it's justice, because those who don't believe could have partaken of Christ, but willfully did not, and they will be held accountable for their sin in a fair manner...having had a way to have it washed away.
Why do we use the Gospel to bring people to Christ? To convert them from unbelief to belief. From unreconciliation, to reconciliation. This is what needs to be fixed, because it is the result of Adam's sin. Jesus converts us with His Gospel to belief (We are reconciled), and then we repent of OUR sins. If we remain in unbelief, then our sins be on our own heads.
John 8:24 (KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
