The fetus, and parents, in heaven

[mutzrein]

Why would this provide evidence for your theory? The baby was dead and David knew that one day he would go to the grave also.

David didn't say where he was going in this verse, he said to whom he was going -- his son.

[quote:syc947cu]Now if as you say this is applicable, pray tell what Jesus meant when he said that no-one had been to heaven, that the kingdom of heaven was at hand, and then, the ONLY way that man could enter the kingdom of heaven was to be born again. I'd REALLY like to know.

I wish I could answer that for you. But I'd really like to know too.[/quote:syc947cu]

Thanks for your honesty JoJo.

I grew up in a Christian home but didn't come to know Christ until I was 30. After coming to know Christ I recall asking questions of my elderly mum, not that I was seeking answers from her for my own edification, but to see what the basis of some of her beliefs were. There were times when she would argue black and blue with me stating what she believed and undoubtedly she was fervent in her beliefs. But when challenged with scripture that denied the premise that she stood on, she would answer with something like, "these things are a mystery" or "there are many things that God hasn't revealed to us yet." You know, in many cases, no matter what I would say, even though I pointed to scripture which seemed to contradict her position, she would not be moved from that which she had been taught to believe.

Jojo, if we believe something that contradicts what is stated plainly in scripture then the premise for our belief is wrong - in which case we either willfully deny what is written or perhaps pass off what is written as something that God has not revealed to us. Which ever way we look at it, at a minimum we would have to admit that we have misinterpreted at least one of the scriptures in order to accommodate our beliefs.

So which scripture is right? One in which Jesus makes a plain statement about the Kingdom or another which we choose to manipulate in order to accommodate something which our human emotions want to accept? I know which scripture is right, but to understand it one must set aside our pre-conceived fleshly notions – and it goes deeper than God just rejecting those that never had a chance to accept him.

Blessings

 

[lovely]

Mutz,

I don't want to put sentiment, or my desire, over the Word, and so I take your challenge to utilize the Word, and seek the truth only, in this area very seriously. By reposting something I had written a year ago, I am not really revisting the topic, and so I think the Lord would have me be more teachable by looking again...sometimes we have to go deep if we want treasure. I want to look at it again in a fresh way. Give me some time to study and read, and I will see where the Holy Spirit takes me in the Word. I want to be given over to God's truth alone here, and maybe it's possible when I first came to these conclusions I wasn't...I don't know. I will pull this thread up again afterward. The Lord bless you.

 

[animal]

Or to go even further, do zygotes go to heaven if they die without becoming blastocysts?

What if the zygote would have split if given enough time? Would there be identical twins in heaven?

No one answered my very important question.

 

[JoJo]

It isn't that I'm being stubborn or willfully choosing to believe something that Scripture contradicts. But I am not convinced that Scripture does contradict my belief that babies will go to heaven. In fact, all of the Scriptures that point to the Lord's love, grace and mercy form the basis for my beliefs.

If I were to accept the notion that God would allow babies to suffer in hell when they never even had the chance to reject Him, much less utter their first "no", I truly believe I would not be seeing God's vast love, mercy and grace for what it is.

"What if the zygote would have split if given enough time? Would there be identical twins in heaven?"

No one answered my very important question.

Sorry animal. I'm not scientifically smart, but I would venture to say Yes.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz,

I don't want to put sentiment, or my desire, over the Word, and so I take your challenge to utilize the Word, and seek the truth only, in this area very seriously. By reposting something I had written a year ago, I am not really revisting the topic, and so I think the Lord would have me be more teachable by looking again...sometimes we have to go deep if we want treasure. I want to look at it again in a fresh way. Give me some time to study and read, and I will see where the Holy Spirit takes me in the Word. I want to be given over to God's truth alone here, and maybe it's possible when I first came to these conclusions I wasn't...I don't know. I will pull this thread up again afterward. The Lord bless you.

Thank you Lovely - and may the Lord bless you too.

 

[mutzrein]

It isn't that I'm being stubborn or willfully choosing to believe something that Scripture contradicts. But I am not convinced that Scripture does contradict my belief that babies will go to heaven. In fact, all of the Scriptures that point to the Lord's love, grace and mercy form the basis for my beliefs.

If I were to accept the notion that God would allow babies to suffer in hell when they never even had the chance to reject Him, much less utter their first "no", I truly believe I would not be seeing God's vast love, mercy and grace for what it is.

Alright JoJo. I agree with you that God's love, mercy and grace is VAST. There is absolutely no argument there. So taking that into account, could there be another outcome for these 'innocents'? What makes you think that the only alternative is hell for ANY who are not Born of the Spirit.

 

[JoJo]

Alright JoJo. I agree with you that God's love, mercy and grace is VAST. There is absolutely no argument there. So taking that into account, could there be another outcome for these 'innocents'? What makes you think that the only alternative is hell for ANY who are not Born of the Spirit.

What alternative are you suggesting? To be honest, I was always taught that when we die we either go straight to heaven or straight to hell. This is something I've not studied extensively because, frankly, I was never concerned with the alternative. I knew where I was going!

 

[mutzrein]

Alright JoJo. I agree with you that God's love, mercy and grace is VAST. There is absolutely no argument there. So taking that into account, could there be another outcome for these 'innocents'? What makes you think that the only alternative is hell for ANY who are not Born of the Spirit.

What alternative are you suggesting? To be honest, I was always taught that when we die we either go straight to heaven or straight to hell. This is something I've not studied extensively because, frankly, I was never concerned with the alternative. I knew where I was going!

I'm suggesting that man has misinterpreted scripture. Consider perhaps the most quoted verse in the bible - John 3:16. How is it that the word ‘perish’ is interpreted as ‘suffer in hell’ for ever. Now I do believe on hell – but not for those who perish.

I'm suggesting that man is born dead - in trespasses and sin. He is devoid of the Spirit and unless he is 'born again' he will perish.

 

[JoJo]

That does it! I'm enrolling in seminary.

 

[mutzrein]

That does it! I'm enrolling in seminary.

Better to wait on the Lord I say . . .