I have understood doctrine as a set of beliefs based on what one is taught by the church/denomination. I see faith as where one places his/her trust. Do I put my trust (faith) in the doctrine of men or in the Lord Jesus?
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The Five Points of Calvinism
- Thread starter Malachi
- Start date
And James 2:18, as well.
Well said, believing brother!
Now this is getting a little silly. Just use the surrounding verses to gather the context.
James 2:18-~~18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
If we have faith without works, it cannot demonstrate to this foolish fellow that we are justified. James used Abraham as an example. Abrahams 'works'(You will find it interesting that this is a noun,vs21) SHOWED this foolish fellow that Abraham was Justified(saved) way back in Ur, before He even moved out of Haran.Acts 7:2
Abraham was justified/vindicated/shown to be righteous to this foolish fellow by his works(noun). The noun part is interesting because it indicates to us that it was not the act of taking Isaac up, It was the doctrine that Abraham believed And applied in his life. If he didn't apply his doctrine, Isaac would have never been brought up.
The whole Abraham story is to show us Abrahams faith! Billions and Billions of people have read and seen Abrahams faith.
http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Genesis 22.12
God just had His fingers crossed? He didn't know?
So I guess God or none of us really know or are certain because Abraham never did finish the deed.
Works of the law, is the context.
Of our own good works does not save us either.
The work of obedience is how we are justified.
A person must obey the gospel in order to be saved.
The also must continue to believe to the end, and not depart from God.
JLB
That cannot be true. Why not? Beause of what Scripture says, repeatedly.
Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:28, 30
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
We are justified by our faith.
Right. How does one obey the gospel? They must believe the gospel. That's the only way.
Unless someone can show from the epistle to the Romans that Paul was not including the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29, where he said that God's gifts are irrevocable, there is no reason to accept your view.
Some brothers and sisters are of the Calvinist thought labeling them antichrist is not going to stand ...
2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Guess I won't be quoting that post, says post not found.............. Oh well. I was about to bust this wide open with knowledge that would thrill and amaze everyone. Guess not now.
Paul did not exclude works. Paul wrote nothing that contradicted any scriptures. Read again what Paul said, then compare what faith and works is by the many examples in scriptures given. If your willing to pay attention, I am more than happy to help out.
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Problem is, you don't understand faith or know the difference. Both scriptures are 100% correct.
Keep on keeping on JLB.
What about the scripture where Jesus said if we don't forgive, our Father in Heaven will not forgive our sins. Was looking at that the other day. Someone told me that don't apply anymore, but not settled with that.
Blessings everyone. Even Calvinist.
Again, the context is the works of the law is being contrasted, by Paul, with faith, and the righteousness that comes by faith apart from the law.
I don't think that anyone is arguing against being declared righteous by faith, as opposed to the works of the law.
It is the principle of how faith does and does not operate, that I am wanting to focus the light of truth upon.
The foundation of that principle of the law of faith is : faith without the work of obedience is dead.
That is not trying to earn righteousness by doing good works.
That is not trying to earn salvation by doing works of the law.
It is the righteousness that comes through the obedience of faith.
15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.17 I will deliver you from the Jewishpeople, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Acts 26:15-18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God...
That's the repent part of the Gospel, that needs to be obeyed.
JLB
Both are true and do not contradict each other.
One is about the works of the law.
The other is about the obedience of faith.
JLB
B
Brother Mike
Guest
So.............
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(Eph 2:8-9)
So it's not our own doing of works, or keeping the works of the law, but what scripture and God said to do.
So if Baptism doth now save. It's because it's faith taking action and doing something by what it believes. A good conscience toward God, a display that we really believe by taking some action.
Now why would it take me 10 pages of forums to explain this difference, you pick up on it right away? Could it be something in the Water we are drinking?
Right on JLB.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Justified / Strong's G1344
From http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV (emphasis mine):
Outline of Biblical Usage
- to render righteous or such he ought to be
- to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
- to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
James is using 'justified' in regard to usage #2.
We can not be justified in making ourselves righteous in God's sight by what we do. That is Paul's argument. But we can be justified as to showing ourselves to be righteous (through faith in Christ) by what we do. That is James' argument.
Paul rightly teaches that no one is justified by the works of the law, since the law is not of faith.
James rightly teaches that a person is justified by obeying God's Voice, which is where faith comes from.
I just don't see how the difference in the two different "works" is not glaringly obvious.
James teaches us an important principle concerning the law of faith.
JLB
James teaches the way we are in fact justified, is by doing what God commands us to do.
It is the "not doing" what God tells us to do, that causes faith to die.
Faith all by itself, without the doing of what God commands, is dead.
Doing what God says = Obedience.
Not doing what God says = Disobedience.
What you seem to be trying to convince us of is: disobedient people are righteous, even if they don't do what the Lord says.
The Holy Command of the Gospel is Repent.
Repent means to turn toward God, which is to turn away from Satan.
When we turn toward God, to obey God and stop obeying Satan as our Lord, and confess Jesus as our Lord, we have repented.
If we later turn from this commandment, and turn back to obeying Satan, then we have become a hypocrite,
Peter says it this way.
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21
Turning from the commandment is a direct reference to REPENT.
Those who do not obey/believe the Gospel will not be welcome on the Day of Judgement.
Or, OSAS is a true doctrine.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Because they're not different. Paul and James are talking about the same works--righteous works done by man. Even 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) when heard from the Spirit of God and then obeyed can not make an unrighteous person now righteous before God. But it will certainly show a person to be righteous before God.
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I said this to Brother Mike:
"Please explain why Paul excluded works from being saved. Eph 2:8,9"
His reply:
"Paul did not exclude works. Paul wrote nothing that contradicted any scriptures. Read again what Paul said, then compare what faith and works is by the many examples in scriptures given. If your willing to pay attention, I am more than happy to help out."
This is amazing. Paul most certainly DID exclude works from being saved. v.9 is quite clear and specific: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
The phrase "not of works" is a clear exclusion of works from being saved, which is dealt with in v.8. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.
"Please explain why Paul excluded works from being saved. Eph 2:8,9"
His reply:
"Paul did not exclude works. Paul wrote nothing that contradicted any scriptures. Read again what Paul said, then compare what faith and works is by the many examples in scriptures given. If your willing to pay attention, I am more than happy to help out."
This is amazing. Paul most certainly DID exclude works from being saved. v.9 is quite clear and specific: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
The phrase "not of works" is a clear exclusion of works from being saved, which is dealt with in v.8. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.