The Five Points of Calvinism

[Jethro Bodine]

What you seem to be trying to convince us of is: disobedient people are righteous, even if they don't do what the Lord says.

Yes. And us 'not so perfect' believers are thankful to God for that.

It's the person who has no pattern or characteristic of righteousness--no change of life--that James is saying has a faith that can not save them. If he was talking about every single time a person doesn't obey God, well then, we'd all be in trouble.....and we'd be serving nothing more than the works gospel that the Bible warns us about.

John talks about this here:

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God..." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

IOW, it is the practice, or characteristic, of doing right, not the perfection of doing right, that shows a person to be of God. So, yes, even disobedient people can be righteous. I be one of them.

 

[JLB]

Because they're not different. Paul and James are talking about the same works--

Paul says we are not justified by the works of the law.

James teaches we are justified by the works of faith.

The law is not of faith, so there is no justification by faith involved in the law of Moses.

The obedience to God is the way we are justified, and declared to be righteous.

If we obey the Gospel, and repent, turn away from the power of Satan to the power of God, then we have obediently satisfied the call of the Gospel.

...that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:28


If we hear the Gospel, and have the faith that comes by hearing, yet we do not do the work or action of repenting, then our faith is dead, and can not save us.

This is the principle of faith.

Faith all by itself, if it does not have the corresponding work of obedience, is dead.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes. And us 'not so perfect' believers are thankful to God for that.

It's the person who has no pattern or characteristic of righteousness--no change of life--that James is saying has a faith that can not save them. If he was talking about every single time a person doesn't obey God, well then, we'd all be in trouble.....and we'd be serving nothing more than the works gospel that the Bible warns us about.

The problem is, I am not talking about a "works" gospel, never have.

I'm discussing an OBEDIENCE Gospel, which means to believe the Gospel.

I'm talking about, and have explained clearly, that we are to obey the Gospel command to repent.

Listen to what the Apostle Paul says about unrighteousness, and unrighteousness people.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Paul says the same exact thing to the Galatians.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you believe a born again person can live a lifestyle as an adulterer or as a liar, or as a homosexual and inherit the kingdom of God, on the Day of Jugdement?

They only ones that I have seen that believe that are those in the OSAS camp.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If he was talking about every single time a person doesn't obey God, well then, we'd all be in trouble.....and we'd be serving nothing more than the works gospel that the Bible warns us about.

Paul doesn't say "every single time" a person doesn't obey....

He does say those who PRACTICE these things....

Notice also that Paul says -

just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God...

just as I also told you in time past...Means Paul had told them before about this, and now he was warning them again.

They ignored his warning before, now he is warning them before it's too late...

If you think about that, this shows that at some point, the Lord expects them/us to turn away from a lifestyle of sin, because He has given us the power to be free from it.

At some point the sin will overcome a person and enslave them to that bondage, which will led to death.

Then there is those who live a lifestyle of hatred where they don't forgive, and we know what the scriptures say about those who don't forgive.


JLB

 

[reba]

se·man·tics
səˈman(t)iks/
noun

1. the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.
   • the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.
     plural noun: semantics
     "such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

 

[JLB]

se·man·tics
səˈman(t)iks/
noun

1. the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.
   • the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.
     plural noun: semantics
     "such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

Differentiating between keeping the works of the law of Moses, and obeying God, which is being led by the Spirit of God, is not semantics, but rather a gross misinterpretation of the scriptures.

We all know we can not earn our salvation by doing good works.

However, understanding the primary command of the Gospel, which is repent, is crucial to a persons salvation.

Some are even being taught that a Christian can live any way they want , even as homosexuals or adulterers or as liars, and still be welcomed into Gods kingdom on Judgement Day.

I sincerely hope that you don't believe this is a "petty" issue.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

The phrase "not of works" is a clear exclusion of works from being saved, which is dealt with in v.8. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.

Every case of real faith in God takes works. Paul said we are not saved of our own works, or what we come up with.
A person can sit in the pews and think to themselves Jesus is Lord all day long. They never go to alter call because then the Jones will know they were not saved, they won't tell people at Work Jesus is their Lord if it comes up. If you confess me before men, Jesus said I will confess you before the Father and his angels.

There is a difference between our own works, works of the law, and stepping out in obeying God. If we believe Jesus is Lord, we go up and confess him before men, even get dunked in Water. If we really believe He is Lord.

Abraham was justified by works. Not his good works, but he obeyed what God said to do by his faith.

And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
(Joh 9:7)

What happens if the guy just said, well................. Washing in that pool where animals drink out of is embarrassing. What will my neighbors think? Well, I will just believe I can see, forget the pool

Does the guy still get his sight back?

What about Naaman? Just pray over me he said, I am not washing in no stinking river.
But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
(2Ki 5:11)

Every thing we receive from God takes faith. Faith needs a response or action. We confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus. Saying you just believe is not going to cut it.

Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

There is an obedience to Faith. If you believe something, you speak as if it's true, you act as if it's true.

Let's take our blind guy for example. He was told to go wash in the pool of Siloam. What if he said I will go Wash at home instead?

The man that came to Jesus with Leprosy. Jesus cleaned him and said go show yourself to the priest and give an offering.

10 come to Jesus with Leprosy. Jesus said, go shew yourself to the priest without cleaning them.

And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests..............................
(Luk 17:13-14)

You just did not walk into the Pharisee headquarters full of Leprosy. You had to have no sign of it, then go to the priest to be declared clean, but they believed Jesus and went on their way, full of leprosy, putting the lives on the line, getting thrown out of town, or stoned. They headed to the priest, full of Leprosy to show them.

And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.


Faith takes an action of what told to do. If you believe and lean not to your understanding, but do what God said do by faith, then miracles happen, even being born again, the greatest of all miracles.

Word of Faith Teaching:
I see this all the time, it's heart breaking. Someone hurts their back, can hardly walk. They confess I am healed, by His stripes I am healed, Healing was bought and paid for, for me, I am the Seed of Abraham, I have covenant rights, He bore my pain and sickness, carried my disease. Jesus has never changed, the same today, yesterday and forever.

You can quote hundreds of scriptures, confess for years your healed. If you believe God wants you healed, then you do well.
Your own works, your own way is not going to get you healed though most the time.

So the guy goes to God, and the Lord says, go take that Job at the plant. The guy thinks, I can't even move hardly, I must believe stronger for my back to be healed. After that, I can go take the Job at the plant. The Lord knows I have to be able to move around good to work, so my healing must soon.

The Lord said, "Go Take the Job at the Plant."

No, faith asks the Lord what to do, trust God will fix it, and do what they are told to do. One leper gets cleaned right away, the other 10 were told to go to the priest without being cleaned. It's not our own works, not the works of the Law, not being good, but doing what He said do. If we believe and trust in him, that faith is counted as righteousness.

I hope you see it more clear on how it works.

Be blessed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul says we are not justified by the works of the law.

James teaches we are justified by the works of faith.

The law is not of faith, so there is no justification by faith involved in the law of Moses.

The obedience to God is the way we are justified, and declared to be righteous.

If we obey the Gospel, and repent, turn away from the power of Satan to the power of God, then we have obediently satisfied the call of the Gospel.

...that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:28


If we hear the Gospel, and have the faith that comes by hearing, yet we do not do the work or action of repenting, then our faith is dead, and can not save us.

This is the principle of faith.

Faith all by itself, if it does not have the corresponding work of obedience, is dead.


JLB

What you're not getting is the works in and of themselves have zero power to make you righteous. Only God can do that for us by forgiving our unrighteousness, thus wiping it away. And the way that forgiveness is secured is through faith in that forgiveness, not by doing things, even by the Holy Spirit, to somehow earn that forgiveness.

As long as the forgiveness of sins is through faith, apart from work, it remains a gift. But as soon as you say forgiveness is earned through doing righteous things you have made justification something that is worked for.

We are made righteous through the 'hearing' of faith, not the 'doing' of faith.

"2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? " (Galatians 3:2 NASB)

The point being, it's not a matter of what works solicit righteousness, but rather that it is faith that solicits righteousness, not what you do in righteousness. Believing is what solicits the Holy Spirit (the agent of our righteousness), not doing righteous things.

 

[JLB]

What you're not getting is the works in and of themselves have zero power to make you righteous.

What you keep missing over and over is, I'm not talking about good works making a person righteous.

Obedience is the principle of faith, and how the law of faith operates.

The work of obedience, is the only way to be justified.

Obedience is the key ingredient in faith that justifies us.

If a person does not obey the command to repent, their dead faith can not save them.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What you're not getting is the works in and of themselves have zero power to make you righteous. Only God can do that for us by forgiving our unrighteousness, thus wiping it away. And the way that forgiveness is secured is through faith in that forgiveness, not by doing things, even by the Holy Spirit, to somehow earn that forgiveness.

As long as the forgiveness of sins is through faith, apart from work, it remains a gift. But as soon as you say forgiveness is earned through doing righteous things you have made justification something that is worked for.

We are made righteous through the 'hearing' of faith, not the 'doing' of faith.

"2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? " (Galatians 3:2 NASB)

The point being, it's not a matter of what works solicit righteousness, but rather that it is faith that solicits righteousness, not what you do in righteousness. Believing is what solicits the Holy Spirit (the agent of our righteousness), not doing righteous things.

If a person disobeys the command of Jesus Christ to forgive, will their sins be forgiven?

JLB

 

[JLB]

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15

If you believe this, yet do not do the work of obeying this, then your believing is in vain.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The point being, it's not a matter of what works solicit righteousness, but rather that it is faith that solicits righteousness, not what you do in righteousness. Believing is what solicits the Holy Spirit (the agent of our righteousness), not doing righteous things.

Obeying the Holy Spirit is what justifies.

The act of obedience starts with a command from God, and produces faith within the one whom God commands, such as Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand...

The person whom God commands now has faith, but does not want to give up their lifestyle of partying and drugs, but they do realize Jesus is God's Son, and they do believe in God.

Do you believe this person is justified before God.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...I'm not talking about good works making a person righteous.
[...]
The work of obedience, is the only way to be justified.

You say you're not talking about good works making a person righteous, but then turn right around and say obedience is the only way to be justified?

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15

If you believe this, yet do not do the work of obeying this, then your believing is in vain.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

What you are failing to understand in your example is the good work/ obedience of forgiving that you do is not what does the justifying. Paul says that here:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

The belief from which the obedience/good work of forgiving comes from does that. Paul explains that here:

"10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (that is, in justification), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10 NASB parenthesis mine)

Just because the 'doing' part--the confessing with the mouth in this case--must also be present in a legitimate salvation experience does not mean the 'doing' part--the obedience part--makes the person justified. The confession part only justifies in that it shows the person to have been made righteous through faith. Justified means to be, both, made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous. Obedience can not make us righteous, but it does show us to be righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If a person disobeys the command of Jesus Christ to forgive, will their sins be forgiven?

JLB

No, because that SHOWS that they either never had, or walked away from, faith in Christ. Forgiveness is not an expected obedience of faith in that it somehow has the power to MAKE someone righteous (justify them). It only has power to SHOW someone to have the faith that makes a person righteous.

 

[JLB]

No, because that SHOWS that they either never had, or walked away from, faith in Christ.

So what you are saying is: But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Does not apply to saved people; people in God's kingdom?

I don't think you can really mean that.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You say you're not talking about good works making a person righteous, but then turn right around and say obedience is the only way to be justified?



What you are failing to understand in your example is the good work/ obedience of forgiving that you do is not what does the justifying. Paul says that here:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

The belief from which the obedience/good work of forgiving comes from does that. Paul explains that here:

"10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (that is, in justification), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10 NASB parenthesis mine)

Just because the 'doing' part--the confessing with the mouth in this case--must also be present in a legitimate salvation experience does not mean the 'doing' part--the obedience part--makes the person justified. The confession part only justifies in that it shows the person to have been made righteous through faith. Justified means to be, both, made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous. Obedience can not make us righteous, but it does show us to be righteous.

What you fail to recognize is: believe carries the idea of obedience.

In others words: Disobedience is Unbelief.

In the New King James, it is rendered DISOBEDIENCE.

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Here in the King James it uses unbelief.

UNBELIEF/DISOBEDIENCE - Strong's Number: 543 - Apeitheia

Definition

1. obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

You may want to consider that the scriptures teach us unbelief and disobedience are interchangeable and mean the same thing to God.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

I'd say you're both right in a way.

When the Bible speaks of the works of the law, also known as the written code, it is talking about sin and death; sin brings death. So the law, working in a man, brings death.

The Jews put their faith in the law thinking that the law would make them righteous. Instead it made them dead.

We maintain faith in Jesus Christ makes a man righteous. And so it does. But the law wasn't abolished. So sin and death are still at work in our flesh. This means we do things we do not want to do. In our mind we serve the Lord, but with our flesh we serve the law of sin. Ro. 7:25

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Ro. 7:25

But that's ok because Jesus taught us how to pray and what to do to remain in a state of grace. We have to abide in him. There's no sin or condemnation in him. To remain in this state, you have to continue to believe, you can't lose faith. You can't let your light go out.

It's not easy to forgive those who trespass against us. It's not easy to keep our mind on him instead of money and pleasure.

Whether you call it a works theology or not, it doesn't matter. As long as God gives growth.

 

[JLB]

You say you're not talking about good works making a person righteous, but then turn right around and say obedience is the only way to be justified?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham was justified WHEN he obeyed...the command to offer Issac.


JLB

 

[JLB]

We maintain faith in Jesus Christ makes a man righteous. And so it does.

We agree on this.

What people have trouble agreeing on is what faith actually means.

We know that faith without the work of obedience is dead.

If we say we believe Jesus is the Son of God, but continue in a life of immorality, then our dead faith will not save us.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we say we believe Jesus is the Son of God, but continue in a life of immorality, then our dead faith will not save us.

Right, because as you know their unrighteousness shows they are unrighteous, not righteous in Christ.

"...anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God..." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7 NASB)

IOW, if they had the faith that saves we'd be able to see it in their lifestyle of righteousness, because that's what John said--Righteous people do righteous things, or else they are actually unrighteous. But you are interpreting it as people who are righteous by faith can't be saved if they don't also add works to the righteousness of faith that they have. Problem: The person who isn't doing righteous work doesn't have the righteousness of faith to begin with.

Your doctrine has in effect invented this imaginary person who has the righteousness of faith, but who doesn't add the practice of righteousness to their righteous faith. But John says that person doesn't exist. He says if a person is practicing unrighteousness they don't have the righteousness of faith (they aren't saved). They may have been at one time, but in their present practice of unrighteousness they show themselves to be unsaved (just as the one who practices righteousness show themselves to be saved). But you are saying they really do believe, but can't be saved because they don't add works to their faith. I say they may have once believed, but don't now, or never did, as evidenced by their unrighteousness, the faith they think they have, or once had, being dead.