THE FORMULA FOR SALVATION

[JLB]

We have to realize the shadow is about the real reality to come.

Yes, and here is the reality that I am referring to; There are three distinct baptisms that are for us and bless us today, and we should all embrace each one.

We are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit when we believe the Gospel.
We are baptized in water by man.
We are baptized with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus Christ.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I believe this is the post you are referring to.


And the LORD said to Moses, “Why do you cry to Me? Tell the children of Israel to go forward. But lift up your rod, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it. And the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. Exodus 14:15-16

• But lift up your rod, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it.

The Lord commanded Moses to do the work.


Who baptizes people in water?

God or man?


for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. Acts 1:5



JLB

Let’s leave John out of this for now.

But yes, this is what I was looking for, and I hope to continue conversing this aspect before we jump to the NT.

I love the passage you quoted because God commands Moses and Moses obeys. However, it was not Moses who saved them.

Verse 21a
Moses stretched out his hand toward the sea, and the Lord drove the sea apart.

Moses obeyed, but God saved them by using water.

Moses even understood this.
Vs 13a
Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand firm and see the salvation of the Lord that he will provide for you today;

It was not Moses who saved them, it was YHVH.

Ironically, we are commanded to baptise, but it is not us who do the work, it is God.

In summary, God saves them, not Moses. As a result, the sea does not represent baptism by men.

God command us also to preach the good news of salvation. It is not us who saves, instead it is Gods word (Rhema) and the Holy Spirit. We are simply vessels.

 

[eddif]

Let’s leave John out of this for now.

But yes, this is what I was looking for, and I hope to continue conversing this aspect before we jump to the NT.

I love the passage you quoted because God commands Moses and Moses obeys. However, it was not Moses who saved them.

Verse 21a
Moses stretched out his hand toward the sea, and the Lord drove the sea apart.

Moses obeyed, but God saved them by using water.

Moses even understood this.
Vs 13a
Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand firm and see the salvation of the Lord that he will provide for you today;

It was not Moses who saved them, it was YHVH.

Ironically, we are commanded to baptise, but it is not us who do the work, it is God.

In summary, God saves them, not Moses. As a result, the sea does not represent baptism by men.

God command us also to preach the good news of salvation. It is not us who saves, instead it is Gods word (Rhema) and the Holy Spirit. We are simply vessels.

There is a probably a hidden message in the passage. (Of
course).

There is a rod and staff. Now here is where shepherds would know.
I would guess.

Discipline / leading / comfort has two aspects. Draw near or punish.
Maybe it is one item and which end mentioned tells what is going on.

The crook will reach into a briar patch and deliver an animal from thorns. The rod end will strike a stray which is going the wrong way.

Moses held up the rod? If so punishment of the Egyptians may have been the main point.

In the wilderness both leading and punishment were used.

So straighten me out if needs be. The Jewish person has the advantage in the OT.

Knowing I want to leap to the NT.
LOL

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[stovebolts]

There is a probably a hidden message in the passage. (Of
course).

There is a rod and staff. Now here is where shepherds would know.
I would guess.

Discipline / leading / comfort has two aspects. Draw near or punish.
Maybe it is one item and which end mentioned tells what is going on.

The crook will reach into a briar patch and deliver an animal from thorns. The rod end will strike a stray which is going the wrong way.

Moses held up the rod? If so punishment of the Egyptians may have been the main point.

In the wilderness both leading and punishment were used.

So straighten me out if needs be. The Jewish person has the advantage in the OT.

Knowing I want to leap to the NT.
LOL

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Interesting and insightful thoughts Brother. What a blessing.

It reminds me of one of Gods name which is translated God Almighty. In Hebrew, El Shaddia. Don’t quote me on the spelling.

In Hebrew, it is spelled with two characters. First is the Alef which takes the form of an ox, representing strength etc. second letter is the Dalet which takes the form of a shepherds staff / rod. This is where we get “The good shepherd” aka God Almighty.

 

[JLB]

In summary, God saves them, not Moses. As a result, the sea does not represent baptism by men.

I don’t know of any baptism called “baptism by men”.

We are baptized in water by man.

We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit.

We are baptized with the Spirit by Jesus.

Baptism in water by a man is just one of the three different baptisms that God has ordained for us.

No need for me to keep repeating the New Testament verses for this, since they are plain.


The whole plan of salvation that God has for mankind involves our obedience.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Does this mean salvation is of man? No.

We obey through the Spirit; the enabling power of the Spirit.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23

For me, I am greatful to have the power of God through the baptism with the Holy Spirit, as on the day of Pentecost.

However I was saved, when I was born again, being baptized into Christ by the Spirit; have been made one with Christ.


Later on I was baptized in water by my Pastor.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Ironically, we are commanded to baptise, but it is not us who do the work, it is God.

Actually it’s man who does the work of baptizing believers in water.


Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:36-38


Just as God commanded Moses to raise his staff and part the sea, so also it is man who does the actual work of baptizing believers in water.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Just as God commanded Moses to raise his staff and part the sea, so also it is man who does the actual work of baptizing believers in water.

Agreed. And this is how God saved them. And I will make note that Moses did not part the sea. It was God who parted the sea according to scripture.

When we are water baptized, we are baptized into Christ in the same way those of old were baptized into Moses. While the NT commands us to baptize, it is the same idea where Moses was commanded to raise his rod. In both cases, it is God who does the saving.

This whole conversation started because you linked the sea (water) as a baptism by men. This idea is not supported in Exodus 14 from where the NT speaks from. It was God who saved them and Moses gives God that glory. He takes no glory for his obedience. Instead, he uses it to credit God for their salvation.

 

[JLB]

And I will make note that Moses did not part the sea. It was God who parted the sea according to scripture.

I believe we know that the power to do the miraculous things comes from the Lord.

However, He requires us to obey what He says.

With Moses, He required him to stretch out his staff.

With us, he requires that we baptize people in water.

However, it’s not the water itself but the obedient heart of the person being baptized that creates the opportunity for a good conscience.

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 3:21


Likewise, Noah built the ark, in obedience, the obedience of faith in response to the word of the Lord to him, in which his household was saved.


Neither Noah, or his family “got wet” yet that event also foreshadowed baptism, just as Moses and the children of Israel didn’t “get wet” but that event also foreshadows water baptism, in that they went down into the sea, foreshadowing death, and came up out of the sea, foreshadowing resurrection.

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

JLB

 

[JLB]

This idea is not supported in Exodus 14 from where the NT speaks from.

First of all I never mentioned Exodus 14 to begin with.

I simply stated what Paul did.

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

If you choose not to believe that the children of Israel going down into the sea, and coming up out of the sea, foreshadows water baptism then so be it.


JLB

 

[eddif]

Out of our old life in captivity / bondage

Into death - (the valley of
the shadow of death)

Out of the valley - (Headed for the new birth in the promised land))

Death following us is defeated - (forgetting those things that lie behind)

The rod and staff directing us in the wilderness (l lessons in wilderness)

Baptism crossing Jordan. - a type of repentance to ready us for a new life

The struggles even after repentance

Circles within circles. Types and shadows. Antitypes to be overcome.

Help us understand.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Out of our old life in captivity / bondage

Into death - (the valley of
the shadow of death)

Out of the valley - (Headed for the new birth in the promised land))

Death following us is defeated - (forgetting those things that lie behind)

The rod and staff directing us in the wilderness (l lessons in wilderness)

Baptism crossing Jordan. - a type of repentance to ready us for a new life

The struggles even after repentance

Circles within circles. Types and shadows. Antitypes to be overcome.

Help us understand.

eddif

Maybe we want to understand too much?

I called this thread the formula for salvation because I don't believe there IS a formula for salvation.
If we know God and try our best to obey and walk in His ways, then I don't know what else there is to do.

We post on these threads to exchange ideas and what we can understand about God, who is not really understandable, but only inasmuch as Jesus has revealed to us about Him, God Father.

This is helpful for us. The writer of Hebrews says we should gather together. Why? Because it's necessary to know others that are like ourselves, that have the same basic beliefs we have and that know the same God we know.
This is helpful for us. It's helpful for us so that we can live in this world and know that there are others who believe as we do.

Crossing the Jordan was a type of baptism, Moses was a type of Jesus, Passover is a type of the crucifixtion.
This is all interesting to know and keeps us in awe of scriptures and how they are written by different persons at different times and yet they are all written with the same mind. The mind of God.

As you've often said, we see now darkly.
But one day we will see clearly and understand all.
And all this babbling will be replaced by full knowledge.
That will truly be awesome !!

 

[eddif]

Maybe we want to understand too much?

I called this thread the formula for salvation because I don't believe there IS a formula for salvation.
If we know God and try our best to obey and walk in His ways, then I don't know what else there is to do.

We post on these threads to exchange ideas and what we can understand about God, who is not really understandable, but only inasmuch as Jesus has revealed to us about Him, God Father.

This is helpful for us. The writer of Hebrews says we should gather together. Why? Because it's necessary to know others that are like ourselves, that have the same basic beliefs we have and that know the same God we know.
This is helpful for us. It's helpful for us so that we can live in this world and know that there are others who believe as we do.

Crossing the Jordan was a type of baptism, Moses was a type of Jesus, Passover is a type of the crucifixtion.
This is all interesting to know and keeps us in awe of scriptures and how they are written by different persons at different times and yet they are all written with the same mind. The mind of God.

As you've often said, we see now darkly.
But one day we will see clearly and understand all.
And all this babbling will be replaced by full knowledge.
That will truly be awesome !!

I enjoyed your post.

I have realized the whole time you did not see formulas. Since I do, I have tried to present my view as low key as I can.

We have two groups blended into one new man. The Jewish persons and the gentile persons.
The law written on tablets of stone are gone. The law written on the new hearts of flesh and minds are with the Jew and gentile now.

So. IMHO
The Jew wonders why we mess with the old law of Moses so much

The gentile wonders why he needs any form of the law at all. Or why we even look at the Law of Moses.

The Jew and gentile are one new man. Sorry but your partner is not who you are. In Christ Jesus the walls fall away.

Yes buts fall away. Well some people have a little problem working with a new mindset. The New Testament shows the conflicts. The NT shows the resolution of the conflicts.

Those who want peace discuss the issues. Is it easy? Apparently not.

A gentile screams when you comment negatively on their favorite commentary or their book of church order.

A Jew screams if you comment negatively about their favorite tradition (oral or written).

Jesus broke down the middle wall separating Jew and gentile.

So here I am trying to discuss what very few want to look at.

Us four and no more just does not work. Not those in error, not doctrinal lupus attacks either. By faith and through faith will never totally go away, but it should go away enough to allow a measure of peace.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

I enjoyed your post.

I have realized the whole time you did not see formulas. Since I do, I have tried to present my view as low key as I can.

Good morning,
Since you feel there is a formula, there's no need to be low key about it.
We don't have to agree on everything.
If there is a formula, what is that formula?
I can't find it in any of your posts, except perhaps that the law has been done away with.
But that does not leave us with a formula...

We have two groups blended into one new man. The Jewish persons and the gentile persons.
The law written on tablets of stone are gone. The law written on the new hearts of flesh and minds are with the Jew and gentile now.

So. IMHO
The Jew wonders why we mess with the old law of Moses so much

The gentile wonders why he needs any form of the law at all. Or why we even look at the Law of Moses.

The Jew and gentile are one new man. Sorry but your partner is not who you are. In Christ Jesus the walls fall away.

But have the laws written on stone gone away?
The law of moses is gone.
But the law of God, written on two stones, otherwise known as the 10 commandments...
has that also gone away?

Yes buts fall away. Well some people have a little problem working with a new mindset. The New Testament shows the conflicts. The NT shows the resolution of the conflicts.

Those who want peace discuss the issues. Is it easy? Apparently not.

A gentile screams when you comment negatively on their favorite commentary or their book of church order.

A Jew screams if you comment negatively about their favorite tradition (oral or written).

Jesus didn't agree much with screaming. He said we are to be as one, united in Him to put it simply.
So, we could discuss without screaming, I think.

I don't use commentaries - very rarely.
But I do think some traditions are very useful, especially for our young.
Like first time communion for instance. I think it's just wonderful to make a big feast out of it.
Something to remember all your life.

Jesus broke down the middle wall separating Jew and gentile.

So here I am trying to discuss what very few want to look at.

What exactly do few want to look at?

Us four and no more just does not work. Not those in error, not doctrinal lupus attacks either. By faith and through faith will never totally go away, but it should go away enough to allow a measure of peace.

eddif

Amen.

 

[eddif]

Good morning,
Since you feel there is a formula, there's no need to be low key about it.
We don't have to agree on everything.
If there is a formula, what is that formula?
I can't find it in any of your posts, except perhaps that the law has been done away with.
But that does not leave us with a formula...



But have the laws written on stone gone away?
The law of moses is gone.
But the law of God, written on two stones, otherwise known as the 10 commandments...
has that also gone away?


Jesus didn't agree much with screaming. He said we are to be as one, united in Him to put it simply.
So, we could discuss without screaming, I think.

I don't use commentaries - very rarely.
But I do think some traditions are very useful, especially for our young.
Like first time communion for instance. I think it's just wonderful to make a big feast out of it.
Something to remember all your life.




What exactly do few want to look at?


Amen.

What is the formula?
Basically if our creator Godhead made our body able to take:
Carbs and form protein
Break down one protein and form another
Store glycogen
Store fat
Send energy to cells and muscles
etc

We are looking at biological formulas / formulations

Romans 1:20
We are looking at what God has created and learn about God.

Is life just food and drink? No
Is life about living on Words of God? Yes. Can we easily go from the physical to the metaphysical? Just really depends on our asking: Why parables?
Then
Expect an answer.
James 1:5 kjv
5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Do I believe religious formulas exist? Absolutely. Do I want to assign the formulas? No.
……,

The law in stone:
No relief rigid guilty die.
No confess sins and accept Jesus.

The law in heart of flesh:
Confesses our sin.
God works in us to cleanse us.

Go and sin no more. Lots better than bring the stones for death.
…,..

Jesus did not tear his clothes / scream.
A Mississippi rebel battle yell is not the answer.

Am I pure love? Regretfully not. Is there a formula? IMHO yes.

At the last trump we will be changed.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

What is the formula?
Basically if our creator Godhead made our body able to take:
Carbs and form protein
Break down one protein and form another
Store glycogen
Store fat
Send energy to cells and muscles
etc

We are looking at biological formulas / formulations

Romans 1:20
We are looking at what God has created and learn about God.

Is life just food and drink? No
Is life about living on Words of God? Yes. Can we easily go from the physical to the metaphysical? Just really depends on our asking: Why parables?
Then
Expect an answer.
James 1:5 kjv
5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Do I believe religious formulas exist? Absolutely. Do I want to assign the formulas? No.
……,

The law in stone:
No relief rigid guilty die.
No confess sins and accept Jesus.

The law in heart of flesh:
Confesses our sin.
God works in us to cleanse us.

Go and sin no more. Lots better than bring the stones for death.
…,..

Jesus did not tear his clothes / scream.
A Mississippi rebel battle yell is not the answer.

Am I pure love? Regretfully not. Is there a formula? IMHO yes.

At the last trump we will be changed.

eddif

What is the formula?
You will not state it!
By formula I mean....steps necessary to become saved.
Some believe if they walk down an isle and say a prayer they will be saved forever, even if there is no change in their life. Would this be a formula?

Is pure love a formula?
But there is no pure love so that cannot be the formula.

Come on Ed, spit it out.

 

[eddif]

What is the formula?
You will not state it!
By formula I mean....steps necessary to become saved.
Some believe if they walk down an isle and say a prayer they will be saved forever, even if there is no change in their life. Would this be a formula?

Is pure love a formula?
But there is no pure love so that cannot be the formula.

Come on Ed, spit it out.

LOL
OT Jewish saints that qualified for Abraham’s bosom, had faith in the promised messiah to come. Jesus comes to them in the grave, and presents the gospel. Just as the disciples believed they believe. IMHO a white garment is given them, and they await the Resurrection (just as saved as those today.
OT Jews may have talked to John the Baptist. repent, believe in Jesus, I studder a little on the Holy Spirit, but the those who died because of their witness did have power to witness in their lifetime.

Now I could make a mistake in saying a step incorrectly, but this is the NT and those listening judge. We are discussing.

Salvation / formula of OT Jews.

eddif

 

[stovebolts]

First of all I never mentioned Exodus 14 to begin with.

I know that. This is a Christian forum, right? And we do discuss the scripture, right?

I simply stated what Paul did.

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

You know that’s not the topic. You said that the sea represented baptism by man. Your not being intellectually honest. I would appreciate an honest conversation.

If you choose not to believe that the children of Israel going down into the sea, and coming up out of the sea, foreshadows water baptism then so be it.

Why would you say that? Your falsely misrepresenting me with false accusations. I don’t appreciate that JLB.

 

[eddif]

Yes, and here is the reality that I am referring to; There are three distinct baptisms that are for us and bless us today, and we should all embrace each one.

We are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit when we believe the Gospel.
We are baptized in water by man.
We are baptized with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus Christ.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

JLB

Let us examine some things.

Today / now.
Three baptisms / immersions

The Fathers baptism:
Jesus said there is one good, and that is the Father.
The Father had many Names
John the Baptist taught / baptized / immersed (as a concept) into Repentance.

The Sons Baptism:
Believe in the one the Father sent out of love for the World. The one the prophets said was a suffering servant. One Name for Salvation / eternal life.

The Holy Spirit Baptism:
The power to be a witness. Having a believing disciple is one thing. The disciples hid / abandoned Jesus on the cross. The power to bear witness to the Good news / Gospel was breathed into the disciples at Pentecost. 120 followers.

Acts 2:38 kjv
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now we may go to the OT and look into how to bring those saints into New Covenant Salvation.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Let’s leave John out of this for now.

But yes, this is what I was looking for, and I hope to continue conversing this aspect before we jump to the NT.

I love the passage you quoted because God commands Moses and Moses obeys. However, it was not Moses who saved them.

Verse 21a
Moses stretched out his hand toward the sea, and the Lord drove the sea apart.

Moses obeyed, but God saved them by using water.

Moses even understood this.
Vs 13a
Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand firm and see the salvation of the Lord that he will provide for you today;

It was not Moses who saved them, it was YHVH.

Ironically, we are commanded to baptise, but it is not us who do the work, it is God.

In summary, God saves them, not Moses. As a result, the sea does not represent baptism by men.

God command us also to preach the good news of salvation. It is not us who saves, instead it is Gods word (Rhema) and the Holy Spirit. We are simply vessels.

Back to our heritage in Abraham and Jacob.

The formula for OT saints:
The resurrection of the Pharisees
The Pharisees belief in spirits
The faith of Abraham
The promised Messiah

Abraham’s Bosom
Jonahs belly of the great fish
The shadow of death in the Red Sea
The ark of Noah
The cloud

The only hope of escaping eternal death is a vessel / bubble of protection:
Air pocket in great fish
Boat in flood
Dry land with water towering around and threatening death.

Abrahams bosom seems to be the spiritual hope of eternal life. The spirits of the OT saints were not gone forever. The Pharisees theology allowed a concept of eternity
In the mind of man,

So the formula for OT saints?
Preach the NT gospel to the saints in Abraham’s bosom.

Well OT people did not know about Abraham’s bosom. No big deal, people did not know rhe seed stood for the word of God. People did not know about ground being men’s hearts. In the fullness of time (remind me later to come back to this concept of time), and Jesus came and being in the grave preached to those there. Those spirits of dead saints were able to hear and believe.

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection or spirits.

Today we may think that spirits and eternal life is NT stuff. Not so evidently.
Acts 23:6 kjv
6. But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7. And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Not all religious people were unbelieving at the time of Jesus. Most may not have been spiritual minded, but those in the dispersion of Ezekiel were more spiritual.

So

Believers in the resurrection / angels / spirits / eternity would hear and believe the pteaching of Jesus in Abraham’s bosom.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

I know that. This is a Christian forum, right? And we do discuss the scripture, right?

Yes. I went to Exodus 14 and showed where God commanded Moses to part the Red Sea.


as you requested.