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The Gospel Plus "NOTHING"

Mungo said:
As I have pointed out before (several times) faith is also a work (mental work).
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You can call it anything that you want, but it is the only thing that God accepts for our salvation, Hebrews 11:6.

Works, obedience and religion are not acceptable and are an indication of the absence of faith.
 
Mungo said:
1 Pet 3:21
Baptism, ......, now saves you

Mk 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved



all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3:27).

But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, by putting his seal on us and giving us his Spirit in our hearts as a first installment. (2Cor 1:22)

When we are clothed with Christ we have been put into Christ and God gives us the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Just as was prophesied by Ezekial (Ez 36:25-27):
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Baptism is a ritual that signifies that the person is dead to the influence of the "flesh" and alive to God in Jesus Christ. If baptism in water saved anyone, then all s/he would have to do is dive into water, emerge, and claim that s/he is saved. Simple, easy, and total nonsense.

The requirement of being saved is to believe in the salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ. Without that, no baptism will have any effect, which is why the sprinkling of infants is useless.

Your last few Scripture citations are correct. Why don't you understand them?

"Baptized into Christ" means immersed in His person, not getting wet. Water baptism by itself cannot save a person. Think about it logically. A person is a criminal; s/he is immersed in water, emerges with no change of heart or change of thinking, and claims they are saved, i.e., in Christ. They are not! They are still a criminal until they repent as accept Jesus as their Savior.
 
jaybo said:
Baptism is a ritual that signifies that the person is dead to the influence of the "flesh" and alive to God in Jesus Christ. If baptism in water saved anyone, then all s/he would have to do is dive into water, emerge, and claim that s/he is saved. Simple, easy, and total nonsense.
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We are saved by Jesus in baptism.
Just diving into water is not baptism.

jaybo said:
The requirement of being saved is to believe in the salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ. Without that, no baptism will have any effect, which is why the sprinkling of infants is useless.

Your last few Scripture citations are correct. Why don't you understand them?
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I do understand them. Why don't you accept what they say.

jaybo said:
"Baptized into Christ" means immersed in His person, not getting wet. Water baptism by itself cannot save a person. Think about it logically. A person is a criminal; s/he is immersed in water, emerges with no change of heart or change of thinking, and claims they are saved, i.e., in Christ. They are not! They are still a criminal until they repent as accept Jesus as their Savior.
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I have agreed on numerous occasions that baptism in itself does not save anyone
It is Jesus who saves someone in baptism when they come to him with faith and are baptised.
 
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jaybo said:
A "mental work"? It takes mental work to rationalize that kind of thinking.
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work
n noun
1 activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.
Concise Oxford English Dictionary

intransitive verb
to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity

Noun
c : sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result Merriam Webster Dictionary
 
Mungo said:
We are saved by Jesus in baptism.
Just diving into water is not baptism.



I do understand them. Why don't you accept what they say.


I have agreed on numerous occasions that baptism in itself does not save anyone
It is Jesus who saves someone in baptism when they come to him with faith and are baptised.
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We are not saved by Jesus in baptism. John baptized many people in water. None of them were saved.

If you have agreed on numerous occasions that baptism in itself does not save anyone, why do you keep claiming that it does??? The first sentence of your post says "We are saved by Jesus in baptism." So you are contradicting yourself.

Then you say "It is Jesus who saves someone in baptism when they come to him with faith and are baptized."

So you are contradicting your contradiction! Jesus saves people when they believe that He is their savior.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." There is absolutely no mention of baptism in this famous foundational verse.

Ephesians 2:1-10, "You were dead through the trespasses and sinsi n which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works ], so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them." There is absolutely no mention of baptism here either.

We are saved by God's grace when we believe in the salvific work of His Son, not by any ritual or "work". Period.
 
jaybo said:
We are not saved by Jesus in baptism. John baptized many people in water. None of them were saved.

If you have agreed on numerous occasions that baptism in itself does not save anyone, why do you keep claiming that it does??? The first sentence of your post says "We are saved by Jesus in baptism." So you are contradicting yourself.

Then you say "It is Jesus who saves someone in baptism when they come to him with faith and are baptized."

So you are contradicting your contradiction! Jesus saves people when they believe that He is their savior.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." There is absolutely no mention of baptism in this famous foundational verse.

Ephesians 2:1-10, "You were dead through the trespasses and sinsi n which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works ], so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them." There is absolutely no mention of baptism here either.

We are saved by God's grace when we believe in the salvific work of His Son, not by any ritual or "work". Period.
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John's baptism was not Christian baptism (in Jesus name).
When Paul found that the 12 men at Ephesus (Acts 19) had only been baptised in John's baptism he had them baptised "in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Yes, I said we are saved by Jesus in baptism.
I keep emphasising that it is Jesus that saves us in baptism when we come to him with faith.

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Peter says "Baptism, ........, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)

Start believing scripture

Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.

I've been through all this with Robert Pate in three different threads.
Do I have to go through it all again?
 
Mungo said:
Nowhere is scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone.



A personal opinion.
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The Pharaisee religion is the closest thing that there is to Catholicism. It was a religion of law, you must, you must, you must and if you don't you are anathema. Everything that the Pharisees did was motivated by their religion, just like Catholicism. If you don't think that there is anything wrong with that read the 23rd Chapter of Matthew.
 
Robert Pate said:
The Pharaisee religion is the closest thing that there is to Catholicism. It was a religion of law, you must, you must, you must and if you don't you are anathema. Everything that the Pharisees did was motivated by their religion, just like Catholicism. If you don't think that there is anything wrong with that read the 23rd Chapter of Matthew.
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Just your personal opinions.
 
Robert Pate said:
Works, obedience and religion are not acceptable and are an indication of the absence of faith.
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I don't think I can agree with this. In fact, I would say just the opposite. Works and obedience are an indication of faith, not the lack thereof. Scripture, including the recorded words of Jesus, is loaded with direction and command to exercise our faith through works and obedience.

Just a few examples...

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’"
Matthew 25:31-36 ESV

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
John 14:15 ESV

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:14-17 ESV

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
 
WIP said:
I don't think I can agree with this. In fact, I would say just the opposite. Works and obedience are an indication of faith, not the lack thereof. Scripture, including the recorded words of Jesus, is loaded with direction and command to exercise our faith through works and obedience.

Just a few examples...

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’"
Matthew 25:31-36 ESV

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
John 14:15 ESV

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:14-17 ESV

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
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There are multitudes of religious people and cults that are trying to work their way into heaven. This is why works are not always an indication of faith.
 
Robert Pate said:
No, because you are not familiar with the Bible you cannot see how Pharisaism and Catholicism are very similar. They are both religions of the law, which is a ministration of death, 2 Corinthians 3:7.
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This sort of claim is called "switch and bait"; an attempt to disguise that you lost the argument by switching to insults to get a different argument started.
 
Mungo said:
John's baptism was not Christian baptism (in Jesus name).
When Paul found that the 12 men at Ephesus (Acts 19) had only been baptised in John's baptism he had them baptised "in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Yes, I said we are saved by Jesus in baptism.
I keep emphasising that it is Jesus that saves us in baptism when we come to him with faith.

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Peter says "Baptism, ........, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)

Start believing scripture

Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.

I've been through all this with Robert Pate in three different threads.
Do I have to go through it all again?
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Apparently you do have to go through it again .. until you get it right.

You wrote, "Start believing scripture" and "nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone".

The first is a personal insult. Does your Catholic faith and/or the Pope tell you to behave like that?

Again -- and probably for the 50th time -- "All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:3-9

Does your Catholic denomination teach something contrary to what God's word clearly says, or is it just your personal misinterpretation?

Secondly, if you believe that you are saved by any works, including baptism, you are doubly confused. Baptism saves no one. An baptized unbeliever is still an unbeliever.
 
jaybo said:
Apparently you do have to go through it again .. until you get it right.

You wrote, "Start believing scripture" and "nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone".

The first is a personal insult. Does your Catholic faith and/or the Pope tell you to behave like that?

Again -- and probably for the 50th time -- "All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:3-9

Does your Catholic denomination teach something contrary to what God's word clearly says, or is it just your personal misinterpretation?

Secondly, if you believe that you are saved by any works, including baptism, you are doubly confused. Baptism saves no one. An baptized unbeliever is still an unbeliever.
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Yes the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace.
The Catholic Church also teaches that faith is needed.
The Catholic Church also teaches that baptism is the normal occasion when God applies his saving grace to us.

I posted this in the thread "Is baptism required for salvation"
Mungo said:
Not absolute. It is the normal way that Jesus gave us. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
But note - this is Christian baptism, ordained by Christ, not previous baptisms like John's

But God is sovereign and may save someones even though they have not been baptised. But that is his choice not ours.
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The Council of Trent called baptism the instrumental cause of our Justification.
"the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;" (Council of Trent session 6)

And finally, yes, a baptised unbeliever is still an unbeliever (he who does not believe will be condemned - Mk 16:16)
BUT NOTE: The above applies to adults. I'm not going into baptism of infants. That's a separate issue.
 
Mungo said:
Yes the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace.
The Catholic Church also teaches that faith is needed.
The Catholic Church also teaches that baptism is the normal occasion when God applies his saving grace to us.

I posted this in the thread "Is baptism required for salvation"


The Council of Trent called baptism the instrumental cause of our Justification.
"the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;" (Council of Trent session 6)

And finally, yes, a baptised unbeliever is still an unbeliever (he who does not believe will be condemned - Mk 16:16)
BUT NOTE: The above applies to adults. I'm not going into baptism of infants. That's a separate issue.
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The word "Grace" means God's unmerited favor towards fallen man. The Catholic church has changed the word "Grace" to mean something that is infused into the believer.
 
Robert Pate said:
There are multitudes of religious people and cults that are trying to work their way into heaven. This is why works are not always an indication of faith.
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Okay, I should have phrased my comments differently saying, works can often be an indication of faith and lack of works would very likely or perhaps definitely be an indication of a lack of faith. I would have an extremely difficult time believing one can have faith and not do works.
 
WIP said:
Okay, I should have phrased my comments differently saying, works can often be an indication of faith and lack of works would very likely or perhaps definitely be an indication of a lack of faith. I would have an extremely difficult time believing one can have faith and not do works.
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I know of some cultist that can outshine most Christians.
 
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