The Great Tribulation

[Free]

So Hades is the grave for the body...I'll buy that.

That isn’t what I said. Hades is the place for departed souls, referred to as the grave throughout Scripture.

 

[Free]

The Great tribulation happened in 70 ad...now we preach the gospel of the Kingdom worldwide.

How was that the great tribulation?

 

[Iconoclast]

How was that the great tribulation?

Hello Free,
The Covenant curses of Deut .28-33 were coming upon apostate Jerusalem.

49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the Lord hath laid upon it;

23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:

26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:

27 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Lk21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

[Edward]

That isn’t what I said. Hades is the place for departed souls, referred to as the grave throughout Scripture.

You make a good point. It can be very confusing but I think you missed my point. I was talking about the places and you seem to want to argue about the semantics of it. Sorry my focus was not so much what yours is.

 

[Free]

You make a good point. It can be very confusing but I think you missed my point. I was talking about the places and you seem to want to argue about the semantics of it. Sorry my focus was not so much what yours is.

I really don't know what your point is here. It isn't just semantics. Bodies in graves is very different from souls in Hades.

 

[Free]

Hello Free,
The Covenant curses of Deut .28-33 were coming upon apostate Jerusalem.

49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the Lord hath laid upon it;

23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:

26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:

27 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Lk21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Sure, but, as I pointed out in post #62, there are several occasions of even worse "tribulations" that have happened since 70 AD, so it's hard to believe that Jesus was only talking about Jerusalem in Matt 24.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sure, but, as I pointed out in post #62, there are several occasions of even worse "tribulations" that have happened since 70 AD, so it's hard to believe that Jesus was only talking about Jerusalem in Matt 24.

I understand what you are saying. i was originally taught the whole premill dispy system ,, and believed it for several years, until I studied my way out. Things to Come, by J.Dwight Pentecost John Walvoord, S.Lewis Johnson,etc

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Except that Jesus is speaking of this life, not future resurrection:

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (ESV)

Note that first Jesus says, "you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." He follows that with "I will give you the keys of the kingdom," and talks of binding and loosing things on earth. So, immediately prior to and immediately following Jesus saying "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," it is all speaking of this life, things that were imminent.

Additionally, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You first say that "Hades is a prison.Its where you go after you die which is the punishment for sin." But then you say that "The grave will not be able to hold his church(assembly)when he calls it out." So, if Hades is where one goes as a punishment for sin, then how is it that believers will be there?

I do agree that Hades is simply the grave and the place where all go after death, but then it isn't a place one goes as a punishment for sin.

Why do believers die?
Answer =sin

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[Edward]

I really don't know what your point is here. It isn't just semantics. Bodies in graves is very different from souls in Hades.

I don't understand what you are trying to say then. As far as I understand it,
When you die, your dead body goes to the grave.
Your spirit goes back to God.
Your soul either goes to be with Jesus or to a holding area to wait until the judgement, called hades I thought or Hell?

That's where I'm at on this. You will have to clarify to me a bit if I am to understand your intent and meaning. If you call Gheenna or whatever, I am not used to that term. Souls that are to be judged have to have a place to go when they die to wait until the appointed time, right?

 

[Free]

Why do believers die?
Answer =sin

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Okay. How does this address what I said?

 

[Free]

I don't understand what you are trying to say then. As far as I understand it,
When you die, your dead body goes to the grave.
Your spirit goes back to God.
Your soul either goes to be with Jesus or to a holding area to wait until the judgement, called hades I thought or Hell?

I'm saying that it's possible, even likely, that everyone's soul goes to Hades. Hence why Rev 20 says what it does about the dead in Hades--"if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life." If the parable/story of Lazarus and rich man actually tells us truth about Hades, then there is a place for the righteous dead and a place for the unrighteous dead.

That's where I'm at on this. You will have to clarify to me a bit if I am to understand your intent and meaning. If you call Gheenna or whatever, I am not used to that term. Souls that are to be judged have to have a place to go when they die to wait until the appointed time, right?

Gehenna is the Greek word Jesus used to speak of the finally destination of the unrighteous. The KJV translates that word, along with Hades, as "hell." But they are two different places.

 

[Free]

I understand what you are saying. i was originally taught the whole premill dispy system ,, and believed it for several years, until I studied my way out. Things to Come, by J.Dwight Pentecost John Walvoord, S.Lewis Johnson,etc

I have no idea what the "whole premill dispy system" entails. I'm simply going by reasoning.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Okay. How does this address what I said?

Those verse show that what I said was true.Death is the punishment for sin.

 

[Free]

Those verse show that what I said was true.Death is the punishment for sin.

Of course it is; I’ve never said otherwise. As such, I still don’t see how that addresses anything I said.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Of course it is; I’ve never said otherwise. As such, I still don’t see how that addresses anything I said.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what your saying then.

You seem to agree that hades is the grave.But you seem to not understand Christ will call his assembly out of the grave as he did Lazarus.

As I see it.The punishment for sin is death.
When people die they are buried in a grave(hades).
When Christ comes,he will call his assembly(church)out of hades.


Do you believe the gates of hades will stop Christ from calling his assembly out of the grave when he comes?
Yes or no?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Edward ell
Well, explain what in that passage you disagree with. That John actually saw a group of people standing in heaven that an angel spoke to him about? Asking John where they had come from? Or is it, that the angel didn't really say to John that these people came out of the great tribulation? That the angel used the exact same turn of phrase that Jesus used?

You apparently disagree with my understanding of these few words and what they were talking about. Would you be willing to express 'what' you believe these particular and specific words that are recorded in the Revelation of Jesus is telling us, according to your understanding.

Who are the people that John is referencing here? What is it that the angel meant when he said to John, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation? Is there going to be more than one 'great tribulation'? What is the great tribulation that is mentioned in this passage, as opposed to the great tribulation that Jesus spoke to us about?

Like I say, I'm willing to listen and entertain anyone's ideas about the things of God, but I do have a thinking mind and, I believe, a Spirit for leading me into all truth that Jesus tells us those who are born again will have. I don't say that to brag, but just acknowledging that what the majority of the new covenant writers wrote about. That there will be imposters and wolves in sheep's clothing among the fellowship. That there are those who have no understanding, just as Peter wrote about those who didn't understand a lot of what Paul had written. And Peter was talking about the people among the fellowship here. Not just lost people traveling the earth with us.

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,...

Here we are warned of false prophets who will appear and deceive many people. Now, I'm not making any claim that you are a false prophet, but that you have listened somewhere to a teaching that has taught you things that aren't true about God's word.

Friend, the Scriptures are pretty clear that we will go into the Great Tribulation. That there is coming a time during the Great Tribulation that God is going to cut short those days. That at that time, God will cut short those days by sending Jesus to collect those that are his and then pouring out His wrath on all that remain. That honestly seems to be a pretty clear teaching to me from the Scriptures.

So, we shall continue to agree to disagree about there being a difference between 'what' the Scriptures are referring to as the 'days of Great Tribulation' and what the Scriptures are referring to when they speak also of the 'days of God's wrath'.

God bless,
Ted

More doom and gloom eschatology.

 

[Free]

Maybe I'm just not understanding what your saying then.

You seem to agree that hades is the grave.But you seem to not understand Christ will call his assembly out of the grave as he did Lazarus.

As I see it.The punishment for sin is death.
When people die they are buried in a grave(hades).
When Christ comes,he will call his assembly(church)out of hades.


Do you believe the gates of hades will stop Christ from calling his assembly out of the grave when he comes?
Yes or no?

Not at all. That is obvious. But that is not what Jesus was speaking about, as that is the distant future and Jesus was clearly speaking of something imminent.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Not at all. That is obvious. But that is not what Jesus was speaking about, as that is the distant future and Jesus was clearly speaking of something imminent.

I don't think Christ has called his assembly out of hades yet.
I believe that is still future.I believe it takes place on the last day.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

 

[Free]

I don't think Christ has called his assembly out of hades yet.

I don’t think so either.

I believe that is still future.I believe it takes place on the last day.

You still aren’t understanding what I am saying. I clearly stated: “that is the distant future,” in reference to the resurrection.

 

[miamited]

More doom and gloom eschatology.

Hi Dorothy Mae
Not for those resting safely in Jesus. But yes, I think the Scriptures are fairly clear that in the period of the wrath of God, it isn't going to be pleasant for those who aren't.

God bless,
Ted