The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[Hopeful 2]

From Bible Reasons;

Sinless Perfectionism​

Fritz Chery Nov 14, 2023 Blog0 comments
In this article, we will be discussing the heresy of sinless perfectionism. It is impossible to be sinless at any time on our Christian walk of faith. Who could claim to be perfect when we look at what God calls perfection? We are trapped in unreedemed flesh and when we compare ourselves to the perfect Christ we fall flat on our face.

When we look to the holiness of God and what is required of us we are without hope. However, thank God that hope does not come from us. Our hope is in Christ alone.

Jesus taught us to confess our sins daily. ​

Matthew 6:9-12 “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. ‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. ‘Give us this day our daily bread. ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.”
When we say that we have no sin we make God a liar.
1 John is a chapter written clearly for believers. When we read 1 John in context, we see that one of the aspects of walking in the light is confessing our sin. When I hear people say that they don’t remember the last time that they sinned and that they are currently living perfectly, that is a lie. We deceive ourselves when we make such claims. Confessing your sins is one of the evidences that you are saved. You can never hide sin in His light.
A person with a genuine relationship with their father is going to confess their faults. The Holy Spirit is going to convict us of sin and if He’s not, that is evidence of false conversion. If God is not treating you as His child, then that is evidence that you are not His. Having unconfessed sin blocks God from listening to you. It’s dangerous to claim to be without sin.
Psalm 19:12 teaches us to confess even our unknown sins. One second of an impure ungodly thought is sin. Worry in sin. Not working 100% fully for the Lord at your job is sin. Sin is missing the mark. No one can do what is required. I know I can’t! I fall short daily, but I don’t live in condemnation. I look to Christ and it gives me joy. All I have is Jesus. I’m trusting in His perfection on my behalf. Our sinfulness makes Christ blood on the cross so much more meaningful and precious.
1 John 1:7-10 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.”
Psalm 66:18 “If I had not confessed the sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.”

We are not perfect​

The Bible says to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” If there is any truth in you, then you are going to admit that you and I are not perfect. “Many are going to say, “why would God command us to do something that we can’t do?” It’s simple, God is the standard and not man. When you start with man you have problems but when you start with God, then you begin to see how holy He is and how desperately you need a Savior.
Everything in this life belongs to Him. Not one single drop of imperfection shall enter into His presence. All we have is the perfection of Christ. Even as a believer I’ve never been perfect. Am I a new creation? Yes! Do I have new desires for Christ and His Word? Yes! Do I hate sin? Yes! Do I strive for perfection? Yes! Am I living in sin? No, but daily I fall so short just like all believers do.
I can be selfish, I don’t do all things for God’s glory, I don’t pray without ceasing, I get distracted in worship, I’ve never loved God with absolutely everything in me, I worry sometimes, I can be covetous in my mind. Just today I accidentally ran a stop sign. This is a sin because I wasn’t obeying the law. There is always going to be something to confess in prayer. Do you not understand the holiness of God? I don’t believe sinless perfectionists do.
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Psalm 143:2 “Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.”
Ecclesiastes 7:20 “Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.”
Proverbs 20:9 “Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?”
Psalm 51:5 “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
Godly Christians know their sinfulness.
The godliest men in Scripture all had one thing in common. They knew their great need for a Savior. Paul and Peter were close to the light of Christ and when you get closer to the light of Christ you see more sin. Many believers are not getting closer to the light of Christ so they are not seeing their own sinfulness. Paul called himself a “chief of sinners.” He didn’t say I was a chief of sinners. He emphasized his sinfulness because he understood his sinfulness in the light of Christ.
1 Timothy 1:15 “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
Luke 5:8 “When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, “Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!”

Romans 7 destroys sinless perfectionism.​

In Romans 7 we notice Paul talking about his struggles as a believer. Many people are going to say, “he was talking about his past life,” but that is wrong. Here is why it’s wrong. The Bible says unbelievers are a slave to sin, dead in sin, blinded by Satan, they can’t understand the things of God, they are haters of God, they don’t seek God, etc.
If Paul is talking about his past life why does he desire to do what is good? Verse 19 says, “For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” Unbelievers don’t desire to do good. They don’t seek after the things of God. In verse 22 he says, “For I delight in the law of God.” Unbelievers don’t delight in God’s law. In fact, when we read Psalm 1:2; Psalm 119:47; and Psalm 119:16 we see that only believers are delighting in God’s law.
In verse 25 Paul reveals the answer to his struggles. “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Christ is how we achieve victory over all sin. In verse 25 Paul then goes on to say, “I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” This shows that he was referring to his current life.
Nonbelievers do not struggle with sin. Only believers battle with sin. 1 Peter 4:12 “Don’t be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through.” As believers although we are a new creation there is a battle against the flesh. We are trapped in our humanness and now the Spirit is waging war against the flesh.
Romans 7:15-25 “For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”
Galatians 5:16-17 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.”

This guy seems to never have heard about rebirth from God's seed.
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
I'm with Peter in this war.

 

[Hopeful 2]

With the robe of Christ righteousness we can come perfect before God, scripture is clear...

How about showing us the scriptures inferring that ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

While I have rebutted many times on this site the heresy of sinless perfectionism, I have also had to repeatedly confront moralism on it, too, and deep ignorance concerning Romans 6, Romans 8:1-16 and Galatians 2:20 and the idea that the Christian life is just an inevitable, tight cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession 'til death. Neither of these beliefs about Christian living are biblical. Sin can be the rare exception rather than the rule in the life of a believer, as the Bible indicates, though sinless perfection in practical living is out of reach. Too often, the declaration that "No one is perfect" is just a way of creating margins for sin in one's life, excusing it and allowing for it because it is, after all, inevitable. To this sort of low thinking I would cite the apostle Paul:

Romans 6:1-7
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Colossians 3:1-10
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—

It sorrows me to think you find some things too difficult for God to accomplish.
If there was no difference between OT Jew (sin-repent, sin-repent, sin-repent, etc.) and NT Christian, (reborn of God's seed) Jesus would have suffered and died in vain.
He didn't die in vain.
Every "new creature" on earth will testify to that !

 

[Hopeful 2]

No one denies we are positional perfect right now, but we are in a non glorified body that sins quite often. In heaven we will not be able to sin.here on earth we sin .That is why we are commanded to mortify, or put to death sin In romans8, and col.3

Wasn't Jesus in a non-glorified body" during His walk on earth ?
Why do you think skin and bones have any power over your mind ?
Who is "at the wheel" ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed, and well said. The reigning power of sin has been broken, we no longer habitually sin, like a drunkard, or a talebearer. But we still have much capacity for sin, especially in the realm of sins of omission.

Capacity doesn't equate to reality.
We all have the capacity to commit suicide, but do we all commit suicide ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You could then brag that I made myself Holy . I'm not ignoring Holiness as something to strive for but no man dies without the need of glorified.thr curse of death is that death is tied to sin .

holyness and sinless means that you won't die .I don't go by church size as that means little about doctrine the heretics up the road have a bigger church then mine .

You over-value the vessel.
"I" will never die.
Jesus said..."And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)
Do you believe Jesus ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
I have not been in this as long as most of you have. But I don't see this. Has someone come out publicly and said they are sinless? That would be a pretty bold statement. Plus, as soon as they made it, they wouldn't be sinless anymore. Because saying that would be a lie.

Being sinless is not even a claim of any the apostles; and they were handpicked men of Jesus. They understood what sin really is and when it starts. This is how Jesus defined when sin begins:

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sin isn't just the act. It is the thought of the act. Who can control their minds to the point of never having a sinful thought? Using myself as an example, I'm a guy. I see a good looking woman in a tight outfit that emphasizes all the parts just so, sometimes I have a less than exemplary thought. Every guy here has to admit the same. The thought is my fleshly reaction. I am alive. I have a sex drive. The sight triggers the thought. I cannot stop the thought. And here we are; I have sinned.
But, from this point further, I can control what I do with the thought.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

(Sidenote: This is one of the reasons I love Paul. I believe he was a sports nut also. He is talking about the ancient Olympic games here. The corruptible crown was made from olive branches. Sorry, this is one of my favorite passages.)

Back to the discussion: The last verse where Paul writes, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:" is my focus. Subjection means the state of being under the power, control and government of another. Can I bring my flesh under the control of the new creation that I have become? It turns out, I can! Am I perfect at it? Far from it. I can't completely stop the sin from where it started. I suspect this was Paul's issue as well.

Romans 7:14-17 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.
I do what I don't allow.
I don't do what I want to do.
I do what I hate.
If I do what I don't want to do, I am proving that the Law is good.
Pay very close attention to the last verse. Why is it no longer Paul that is doing the sin? It's his body. But it is no longer his heart.

I thank God Paul wrote this like he did. Paul struggled with sin the same as you and me. But it is no longer our hearts that sin. It's still me in that my flesh is going to have sinful thoughts from time to time. But by bringing my thoughts under control of my new creation, I can stop the thought from becoming an action. My flesh is still guilty of the thought, and I have to own it. I still need to pray and ask for forgiveness. But God still has my heart.

So, bottom line, it doesn't matter how others portray themselves on this cite. Know the truth, know yourself, and be honest. I am right there with Paul. I have struggled with sin all my life. It has gotten a little easier over the years. But I have to own what I am. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. It is His job to fix me.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Thank God for rebirth from His seed, and for allowing us to be "new creatures" !
You don't need to continue plodding along in uncleanness.

 

[Tenchi]

It sorrows me to think you find some things too difficult for God to accomplish.

I don't. The problem isn't with God but with me. He's so ordained things that when I choose to do evil, He will allow it. I choose evil less and less these days, but there is no promise in God's word made to me that I will one day be sinlessly perfect this side of eternity.

If there was no difference between OT Jew (sin-repent, sin-repent, sin-repent, etc.) and NT Christian, (reborn of God's seed) Jesus would have suffered and died in vain.

??? Who has said there is no difference? I haven't.

He didn't die in vain.

I haven't said that he had.

 

[jasonc]

You over-value the vessel.
"I" will never die.
Jesus said..."And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)
Do you believe Jesus ?

So your free from this


For it is appointed for all men to die then unto the judgement.

Paul is dead .I guess he missed that statement .a sinless person's isn't judged .all will be judged .a court these days can still convene on a criminal charge hear evidence and clear the innocent afterwards but ya still face the judge .

This Paul's statement .

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't. The problem isn't with God but with me. He's so ordained things that when I choose to do evil, He will allow it. I choose evil less and less these days, but there is no promise in God's word made to me that I will one day be sinlessly perfect this side of eternity.

The problem goes away with a real repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed.

??? Who has said there is no difference? I haven't.

Every notion that Christians are subject to the same limitations OT Jews were under says it.

I haven't said that he had.

To continue living in sin invalidates what Jesus accomplished.
It nullifies the gifts He offers us.
Repentance from sin, the destruction of the old man, and rebirth from God's seed, primarily.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So your free from this
For it is appointed for all men to die then unto the judgement.

Not at all, as the final judgement will be for all.

Paul is dead .I guess he missed that statement .a sinless person's isn't judged .all will be judged .a court these days can still convene on a criminal charge hear evidence and clear the innocent afterwards but ya still face the judge .

This Paul's statement .

Here is another of Paul's statements..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
Paul's, and mine, sins have been judged, and the verdict was death.
That death was experienced when we were "immersed" into Jesus' death and burial at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Rom 6:3-7)
We were then both "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
Sin was the old life.
If we both maintain our repentance from sin, our final judgement will be without worry.
Perfect love casteth out fear !
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

 

[Tenchi]

The problem goes away with a real repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed.

As I've shown you from Scripture repeatedly, this isn't so. Read 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Revelations 2-3, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 7:14-25, 1 John 1:8-10, and so on.

Every notion that Christians are subject to the same limitations OT Jews were under says it.

??? And? Whose notions have said so? Not mine.

To continue living in sin invalidates what Jesus accomplished.

No...

It nullifies the gifts He offers us.

Not at all. The "gift" of the new birth isn't so fragile and weak as you seem to think.

Romans 5:20
20 ...where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

 

[jasonc]

Not at all, as the final judgement will be for all.

Here is another of Paul's statements..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
Paul's, and mine, sins have been judged, and the verdict was death.
That death was experienced when we were "immersed" into Jesus' death and burial at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Rom 6:3-7)
We were then both "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
Sin was the old life.
If we both maintain our repentance from sin, our final judgement will be without worry.
Perfect love casteth out fear !
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

Then you are Not sinless .

That which is corruptible must put on that which isn't inccoruptable that's implying the body of death and sin nature .

Paul spoke of a fight with sin .he didnt teach repent once and poof all the desire to sin is gone .

Btw plenty of dying elders I knew and others who got saved didn't fear death and all stated they weren't perfect and didn't deserve the cross or mercy .

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
"The problem goes away with a real repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed." Quote from Hopeful 2

Would you say the apostle John had real repentance?

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John includes himself in these verses.
" . . . And if any man sin, . . . "
" . . . we have an advocate . . . "
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: . . . "
" . . . not for ours only . . . "
John is writing to believers, and including himself in his declaration.
Look up what advocate and propitiation mean. Sinless people don't need this.

"To continue living in sin invalidates what Jesus accomplished.
It nullifies the gifts He offers us." Quote from Hopeful 2

We are not living in sin. We are living with sin. We don't want to sin. But we do. That is why Paul says:

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Paul is comparing keeping the faith to fighting, and running. If he taught sinless perfection, why did he have to fight? Why did he have to run? Paul, in both metaphors, is describing a mental struggle with sin.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Thank God for rebirth from His seed, and for allowing us to be "new creatures" !
You don't need to continue plodding along in uncleanness.

Hey All,
I trust that what John wrote is true. I believe that when I confessed my sin, God forgave me and cleansed me from all unrighteousness. But it doesn't say my flesh will never sin again. In fact, John says the opposite in 1 John 2:1.

"Thank God for rebirth from His seed, and for allowing us to be "new creatures" !

We agree on this.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Iconoclast]

Spiritual vaccines against obedience to God...
This should be interesting !

If perfect obedience to God is a false doctrine, why be good at all ?
Why did Jesus command it in Matt 5:48 ?
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
Why did Paul command it in 1 Cor 15:34 ?
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
And again in 2 Tim 2:19 ?
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
The writer of Hebrews writes..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
Peter too commands it, in 1 Petr 1:15-16 ?
"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)
I will add one of John's exhortations...
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
I have over twenty other scriptures by the apostles exhorting us to perfection.

I will stand in obedience with Paul, Peter, and John.

You sin everyday, in thought, word and deed, no matter how many verses you have.

 

[Iconoclast]

This guy seems to never have heard about rebirth from God's seed.
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
I'm with Peter in this war.

I am sure he knows all about it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

-17...As I've shown you from Scripture repeatedly, this isn't so. Read 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Revelations 2-3, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 7:14-25, 1 John 1:8-10, and so on.

Why is it that you look on the false Christians as your "standard" ?
Those chastised by Paul in 1 Cor. were all non-repentant, and walking in the flesh.
What was Paul's command regarding such posers ?
It is written..."In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened." (1 Cor 5:4-7)
Paul told them to cast out those you use as examples of Christianity.

Rev 2 & 3 ?
What were the threats to those sinners mentioned by Jesus ?
Rev 2:16..."Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."
Rev 2:21-23..."And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
Rev 3:16-17..."So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

Personally, I focus on the prize the adherents of sinless perfection are promised.
Rev 2:7..."He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
Rev 2:10-11..."...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."
Rev 2:17..."He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."
Rev 2:26-29..."And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
That is just chapter 2 !

Gal 3 ?
If you are accusing Peter of sin, what was the sin?
Not eating with Gentiles ?
Isn't that a Law some of the Jews were still keeping ?
Paul found fault with Peter because Pater missed the chance to show the visitors that the Law no longer held sway in the NT.

Rom 7 ?
Some erroneously use Paul's narrative of failure during his time still in the flesh, ( "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." Rom 7:5), as time after he had destroyed the flesh and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:6,4)
Paul wasn't still walking in the flesh, so wouldn't commit any sin.

1 John 1:8-10 ?
Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness, which is sin..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:...(Pro 4:19)"
Verses 5, 7, and 9 address those walking in the light.
After confession of past sins, (v9), they have been washed of ALL sin by the blood of Christ ! (v7)
They can say they have no sin and that they have fellowship with God !
It is the sinners who can do neither.
1 John 2:4-6..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Sinners don't "walk as He walked". They don't know God!

??? And? Whose notions have said so? Not mine.

Calling perfect obedience to God a heresy was mentioned by you...right ?
(Sorry, No, it was Iconoclast)
You are participating in a thread saying we can't be obedient all the time.

No...

Jesus lived perfectly obedient to His Father.
He did it while walking in the flesh.
So why can't we who have crucified the flesh, with the vile affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), do as Jesus did ?
We can, thanks be to God, with the gift of the Holy Ghost, remain in the light regardless of our situations.

Not at all. The "gift" of the new birth isn't so fragile and weak as you seem to think.

I don't consider the gifts weak at all.
In find them so powerful that they cannot be diluted !
Especially the fact that God's seed that gendered us anew cannot bring forth the devil's fruit !
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

"Romans 5:20
20 ...where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

What was Paul's reaction to that notion ?
It is written..."What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Sinners are not dead to sin !

Being now dead to sin, and alive unto God, and having been reborn of His perfect seed, and having been supplied a new divine nature, and walking in the Spirit, walking in the light, I will not commit sin.
The same goes for all men !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then you are Not sinless .

Please explain.
Not all who will come before the Lord on the last day will be considered as goats.
There will be sheep who followed the Good Shepherd, too.

That which is corruptible must put on that which isn't inccoruptable that's implying the body of death and sin nature .

No, just the vessel, now of the Holy Spirit.
It will deteriorate and turn to dust.
That which was in it will not.
You give too much credit to the carrying case !

Paul spoke of a fight with sin .he didnt teach repent once and poof all the desire to sin is gone .

The fight is against temptation, not sin.
Keeping the old man mortified is a considerable ability given to the truly repentant.

Btw plenty of dying elders I knew and others who got saved didn't fear death and all stated they weren't perfect and didn't deserve the cross or mercy .

I won't speak ill of the dead, even if satan is using them to deceive the naïve.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
"The problem goes away with a real repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed." Quote from Hopeful 2
Would you say the apostle John had real repentance?

I truly hope so, but have no idea what he may have done after writing his last letters.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The unrepentant are the "any man" of 1 John 2:1.
I once was one of them, but no longer.
Now I identify with 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
The "any man" can't identify with those verses.

John includes himself in these verses.
" . . . And if any man sin, . . . "
" . . . we have an advocate . . . "
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: . . . "
" . . . not for ours only . . . "
John is writing to believers, and including himself in his declaration.
Look up what advocate and propitiation mean. Sinless people don't need this.

He is indeed writing to believers.
He provides the format for distinguishing those walking in the light, (which is God), from those walking in darkness, (which is sin).
Those walking in sin are not believers.

"To continue living in sin invalidates what Jesus accomplished.
It nullifies the gifts He offers us." Quote from Hopeful 2

We are not living in sin. We are living with sin.

You can cause that deadly condition to cease with a real turn from sin.

We don't want to sin. But we do.

So you have no free-will ?

That is why Paul says:
2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Paul is comparing keeping the faith to fighting, and running. If he taught sinless perfection, why did he have to fight? Why did he have to run? Paul, in both metaphors, is describing a mental struggle with sin.

The "race" isn't over till the end of the race !
Everyday is a new set of challenges to keep on the narrow, lighted, path.
The devil doesn't give up on you after your repentance from sin and your baptism into Christ.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Better said...Keep walking in the light everybody !