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The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

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Hey All,
I trust that what John wrote is true. I believe that when I confessed my sin, God forgave me and cleansed me from all unrighteousness.
He will have, if you were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
But it doesn't say my flesh will never sin again. In fact, John says the opposite in 1 John 2:1.
If you are still walking in the flesh, you were not baptized into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7)
You are not Christ's, as it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
"Thank God for rebirth from His seed, and for allowing us to be "new creatures" !
We agree on this.
The new creature shares nothing with the old creature that was destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ's death.
It is a new vessel, sanctified for the Holy Ghost's residency.
 
It is written..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)

It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24)

Jesus says...sinners hate God.

Does anyone want to love God more than they love their sins ?
 
You sin everyday, in thought, word and deed, no matter how many verses you have.
I think our walk as a Christian comes down in part to our attitude , our mind set .
If your mind set is , "I know I am going to sin today , oh well I was born to ." this is only going to lead to more sin infiltrating your daily life . I see it as giving power to sin over your life .
As Barney Fife would say " nip it in the bud !" . The very thought of sin should not have a space in your mind , if we can get that to happen the "word and deed " of sin will be stopped . As a Christian this can be a challenge , but we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth , John16:13 . These verses below are where the rubber meets the road in our day to day Christian life .

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
 
Please explain.
Not all who will come before the Lord on the last day will be considered as goats.
There will be sheep who followed the Good Shepherd, too.

No, just the vessel, now of the Holy Spirit.
It will deteriorate and turn to dust.
That which was in it will not.
You give too much credit to the carrying case !

The fight is against temptation, not sin.
Keeping the old man mortified is a considerable ability given to the truly repentant.

I won't speak ill of the dead, even if satan is using them to deceive the naïve.
You can't know you are saved .
You are literally arguing works .once I repent I can't sin again as in not truly saved .

That's not even close to the bible .Paul a greater man of God thought little of himself the chief of all sinners and spoke that the war he wages .

Sin rules his flesh according the law but his mind ruled by Christ .that's not always a physical flesh but the old nature

The human heart that pumps blood if I were to receive a transplant from the most vile human doesn't make me like him .yet that part will die because of the effects of sin it's not been glorified.
 
I think our walk as a Christian comes down in part to our attitude , our mind set .
If your mind set is , "I know I am going to sin today , oh well I was born to ." this is only going to lead to more sin infiltrating your daily life . I see it as giving power to sin over your life .
As Barney Fife would say " nip it in the bud !" . The very thought of sin should not have a space in your mind , if we can get that to happen the "word and deed " of sin will be stopped . As a Christian this can be a challenge , but we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth , John16:13 . These verses below are where the rubber meets the road in our day to day Christian life .

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
So that literally means nothing ,no thought of any thing but God

No movies ,no sports ,I don't see that as you say from iconoclast .he nor tenchi says that .

You are arguing that if I got a gun ,shot all the way through best I could ,I could be invicible .

No man is unbeatable in a fight .train hard but be aware you will one day loose and be humble when you win knowing that one day will come .

Age related there that can't be beat .it's why boxers retire .the problem I have with that is legalism.

I strive to be perfect when it's not within me .thus .when asked at church if I'm ok .I lie and that goes on not just me because we aren't supposed to be sad ,mad or what not

My wife lost her daughter .is she supposed to smile every day ? Some call it a sin if she doesn't have a smile .
 
So that literally means nothing ,no thought of any thing but God
I would not say that is the interpretation I am holding to .
No movies ,no sports ,
Can a movie exalt it's self against the knowledge of God , I suppose it could , choose carefully . Sports I don't see this .

"bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"
Sinful thoughts is the focus here .
You are arguing that if I got a gun ,shot all the way through best I could ,I could be invicible .
I lost you on this one , I need another take .
No man is unbeatable in a fight .train hard but be aware you will one day loose and be humble when you win knowing that one day will come .
But do not let your awareness be your downfall . You know as much as I that the fight is in the mind as much as the flesh .
I strive to be perfect when it's not within me .thus .when asked at church if I'm ok .I lie and that goes on not just me because we aren't supposed to be sad ,mad or what not
Could it be you are more OK than you realize ? We are allowed to be sad and angry too (but sin not !) , but we can not let the anger and sadness become who we are as a person .
 
Why is it that you look on the false Christians as your "standard" ?

As I've explained to you in other threads, the Scriptures I cited don't refer to "false Christians" but to Christian brethren, identified repeatedly as such in the various passages. 1 Corinthians 3 is a great example.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.
3 For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?


Paul begins in this passage by identifying his audience as "brethren." Not "false brethren." Then Paul continues, describing his "brethren" as "carnal" but ALSO "babes in Christ." The "brethren" were both carnal and in Christ, not carnal and therefore false brethren who could not, as such, be in Christ. The brethren were so "babyish" spiritually that Paul could only feed them spiritual "milk" not "meat." Nonetheless, Paul identified these people as brethren and confirmed that they were in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:9
9 ...you are God's field, God's building.


Here, six verses later in chapter 3, Paul described his readers as "God's field" and "building," not "false brethren," not "false Christians," but fellow born-again believers, the possessions of God. Doing so, Paul established further that it was possible for born-again people to be spiritually-immature, carnal, divisive and partisan, and still be genuine children of God.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


In this section of chapter 3, Paul indicated that a believer's "work" can be entirely unacceptable to God, revealed as "wood, hay and stubble" by His testing and destroyed. But the believer remains saved, regardless! So poor has the "work" of their building been that God has burned it up but though they suffer the loss of His rewards, they are saved (though with the smoke of hellfire on their clothing).

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.


Paul adds another confirmation of the membership of his readers in God's family here, saying that the carnal babes in Christ, his brethren, and fellow fields and buildings of God, were also "temples of God," indwelt by the Spirit of God, and holy temples of God. This he says of those whom he had described at the beginning of the chapter as follows:

1 Corinthians 3:3
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?


Clearly, Paul did NOT hold to a sinless perfection view of the born-again believer.

1 Corinthians 3:21-23
21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.


Coming full circle to his remarks at the beginning of the chapter, Paul reminds the believers at Corinth here, his brethren, fellow fields, buildings, and holy temples of God, that they ought not to boast in men but to remember that they belonged to Christ who belongs to God. There is simply no way a person can read this chapter honestly and naturally and not understand what I've taken pains to point out from the chapter. It's right there on the surface of Paul's words, plain as day: Christians are not sinlessly perfect.
 
I would not say that is the interpretation I am holding to .

Can a movie exalt it's self against the knowledge of God , I suppose it could , choose carefully . Sports I don't see this .

"bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"
Sinful thoughts is the focus here .

I lost you on this one , I need another take .

But do not let your awareness be your downfall . You know as much as I that the fight is in the mind as much as the flesh .

Could it be you are more OK than you realize ? We are allowed to be sad and angry too (but sin not !) , but we can not let the anger and sadness become who we are as a person .
Have you trained in MMA?

It's not realistic in any good art to assume that you won't get a hit. You train to react no matter what .

Meaning if you take a shot you fight anyway unless it takes you down.

I can post video of drug induced addicts that kill a cop while being shot and die later but the cop is dead .


My point is this on happiness .said by a pentacostal cop who battles PTSD .he sang a song that spoke of the bad days with the demons that talk to him to take his life and said some days they win but I get up and fight the next day .I don't see God but only them and no light ,it's dark here .along those lines .


He was talking about the depression of that.you wake up and have to battle it daily. He was told not to play that .

Yet people battle that with depression and PTSD . His was so bad that he would dream of every life that he tried to save ,kids cut in half .screaming help me and he couldn't save them and he had to save the few that could be saved .the ones that he saw take their lives and also ones he had to shoot . He couldn't drive on certain days because of that .

Mine doesn't get that bad . But I have met those who have and not say a word .that is what I meant .

I find that sports now a days are farther and father from honest competition there is the recent football game where it seems the teams were paid to loose irc.

Boxing I heard has had that problem .never mind the women ,ring girls .let's be real here .
 
For my own understanding.

Are you saying you are without sin?

That you do not sin whatsoever?

You have become like the Lord, perfect?
He sounds like a bit like a Church of Christ person whose beliefs drift into a cult like area, insisting water baptism must take place for salvation to take place.
 
He sounds like a bit like a Church of Christ person whose beliefs drift into a cult like area, insisting water baptism must take place for salvation to take place.
Agreed.

I am very aware of this teaching, and as other have said it comes from the Pentecostal/charismatic teachings.

No Christian will ever be sinless while in the flesh.


On a side note...


Matthew 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

How can we be perfect?

(1) In character: In this life we cannot be flawless, but we can aspire to be as much like Christ as possible. (

2) In holiness: Like the Pharisees, we are to separate ourselves from the world's sinful values. But unlike the Pharisees, we are to be devoted to God's desires rather than our own and carry his love and mercy into the world.

(3) In maturity: We can't achieve Christlike character and holy living all at once, but we must grow toward maturity and wholeness. Just as we expect different behavior from a baby, a child, a teenager, and an adult, so God expects different behavior from us, depending on our stage of spiritual development.

(4) In love: We can seek to love others as completely as God loves us.

We can be perfect if our behavior is appropriate for our maturity level—perfect, yet with much room to grow. Our tendency to sin must never deter us from striving to be more like Christ. Christ calls all of his disciples to excel, to rise above mediocrity, and to mature in every area, becoming like him. Those who strive to become perfect will one day be perfect, even as Christ is perfect (1Jn_3:2-3).
 
Agreed.

I am very aware of this teaching, and as other have said it comes from the Pentecostal/charismatic teachings.

No Christian will ever be sinless while in the flesh.


On a side note...
I know of people who hear this false teaching and fall away as they know they have remaining sin.
 
He will have, if you were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)

If you are still walking in the flesh, you were not baptized into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7)
You are not Christ's, as it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

The new creature shares nothing with the old creature that was destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ's death.
It is a new vessel, sanctified for the Holy Ghost's residency.
Hey All,

"He will have, if you were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)"

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Scripture is pretty clear. Repentance and baptism are two separate acts. Repentance always comes first. Repentance is the act that saves because salvation is an act of God. Baptism is an act of man. It is the public confession of what has already happened. Unbelievers do not generally get baptized. Believers do baptism in obedience to the word of God. Paul was saved probably 4-5 days before he was baptized. But Jesus was speaking to Paul, and Paul was being obedient to Christ before baptism. Now are you going to tell us that Paul was still an unbeliever doing this? Of course not. Because salvation is of God, not man. The faith you are I have, with which we believe, is from God.

"You are not Christ's, as it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." "

Do you really believe you are qualified to make that call? Your post comes across as arrogant. Arrogance comes from pride. But I refuse to judge you by your post. It's not my job. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That is what Paul taught the Ephesians. That is what I believe. Tell me how Paul got it wrong.

"The new creature shares nothing with the old creature that was destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ's death."

Then what do you call that thing your new creature is locked inside? I call it the sinful flesh.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul doesn't seem to share your sentiment. He is using himself as an example. He called it a war. If you are not at war with your flesh, then you know something Paul did not know. No offense, you are entitled to believe whatever you choose. But I am sticking to what Paul said.

Keep walking everybody.
May god bless,
Taz
 
Hey All,

"He will have, if you were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)"

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Scripture is pretty clear. Repentance and baptism are two separate acts. Repentance always comes first. Repentance is the act that saves because salvation is an act of God. Baptism is an act of man. It is the public confession of what has already happened. Unbelievers do not generally get baptized. Believers do baptism in obedience to the word of God. Paul was saved probably 4-5 days before he was baptized. But Jesus was speaking to Paul, and Paul was being obedient to Christ before baptism. Now are you going to tell us that Paul was still an unbeliever doing this? Of course not. Because salvation is of God, not man. The faith you are I have, with which we believe, is from God.

"You are not Christ's, as it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." "

Do you really believe you are qualified to make that call? Your post comes across as arrogant. Arrogance comes from pride. But I refuse to judge you by your post. It's not my job. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That is what Paul taught the Ephesians. That is what I believe. Tell me how Paul got it wrong.

"The new creature shares nothing with the old creature that was destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ's death."

Then what do you call that thing your new creature is locked inside? I call it the sinful flesh.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul doesn't seem to share your sentiment. He is using himself as an example. He called it a war. If you are not at war with your flesh, then you know something Paul did not know. No offense, you are entitled to believe whatever you choose. But I am sticking to what Paul said.

Keep walking everybody.
May god bless,
Taz
Hey All,
I am an old man. I left something out of my post. I will correct it here as my edit time has run out. So here is what I wrote. Then afterwards, what I just remembered, and should have included in my post.

"Do you really believe you are qualified to make that call? Your post comes across as arrogant. Arrogance comes from pride. But I refuse to judge you by your post. It's not my job. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That is what Paul taught the Ephesians. That is what I believe. Tell me how Paul got it wrong. " My original post

I could not remember from where the verse that Hopful 2 used was quoted. Its from Galatians 5:24. I know now why it kept bothering me. The same Paul who wrote verse 5:24, also wrote 5:5.

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

If we are waiting for it, " . . .the hope of righteousness by faith," then it stands to reason that we have not received it yet. Paul again is including himself in the group (church) who is waiting. Paul is not contradicting himself some 20 verses later. You gotta do that rightly dividin ma'an. (Sorry. The old hippie in me gets out once in awhile.)

Keep walking everybody. (Which, btw, is in Gal. 5:25)
May God bless,
Taz
 
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