The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[Hopeful 2]

You can't know you are saved .

You are correct, as I don't believe in OSAS either.

You are literally arguing works .

Hardly.
The works of the Law: circumcision, feast keeping sabbath keeping, tithing, dietary rules, etc., can't save.

once I repent I can't sin again as in not truly saved .

If one needs to repent a second time, the first repentance was a lie to God.

That's not even close to the bible .Paul a greater man of God thought little of himself the chief of all sinners and spoke that the war he wages .

He wasn't a sinner after his conversion
Though the temptations don't stop, Christians are equipt to resist them..

Sin rules his flesh according the law but his mind ruled by Christ .that's not always a physical flesh but the old nature

That is the exact before-and-after Paul presented in Romans 7.
With the flesh now crucified, (Gal 5:24), his new mind controls the steering wheel.

The human heart that pumps blood if I were to receive a transplant from the most vile human doesn't make me like him .yet that part will die because of the effects of sin it's not been glorified.

The vessel expires.
The new creature inside that vessel will live forever.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Everyone knows you sin.

Post the proof, or stop accusing me.

I do not have to prove anything. Water baptism does not remove sin from your life.

Then Peter was a liar in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
And Ananias was a liar in Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
And John was a liar in 1 John 1:7..."...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
With the old man destroyed, (Rom 6:6), and a new creature raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4), we can all continue on without sinning.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The sheer Holiness of Jesus in a vision made John fall as of dead .trembling before His maker .

Was Jesus less holy before His death and resurrection ?
I think not.

 

[Hopeful 2]

As I've explained to you in other threads, the Scriptures I cited don't refer to "false Christians" but to Christian brethren, identified repeatedly as such in the various passages. 1 Corinthians 3 is a great example.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.
3 For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?

Paul begins in this passage by identifying his audience as "brethren." Not "false brethren." Then Paul continues, describing his "brethren" as "carnal" but ALSO "babes in Christ." The "brethren" were both carnal and in Christ, not carnal and therefore false brethren who could not, as such, be in Christ. The brethren were so "babyish" spiritually that Paul could only feed them spiritual "milk" not "meat." Nonetheless, Paul identified these people as brethren and confirmed that they were in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:9
9 ...you are God's field, God's building.

Here, six verses later in chapter 3, Paul described his readers as "God's field" and "building," not "false brethren," not "false Christians," but fellow born-again believers, the possessions of God. Doing so, Paul established further that it was possible for born-again people to be spiritually-immature, carnal, divisive and partisan, and still be genuine children of God.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In this section of chapter 3, Paul indicated that a believer's "work" can be entirely unacceptable to God, revealed as "wood, hay and stubble" by His testing and destroyed. But the believer remains saved, regardless! So poor has the "work" of their building been that God has burned it up but though they suffer the loss of His rewards, they are saved (though with the smoke of hellfire on their clothing).

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Paul adds another confirmation of the membership of his readers in God's family here, saying that the carnal babes in Christ, his brethren, and fellow fields and buildings of God, were also "temples of God," indwelt by the Spirit of God, and holy temples of God. This he says of those whom he had described at the beginning of the chapter as follows:

1 Corinthians 3:3
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

Clearly, Paul did NOT hold to a sinless perfection view of the born-again believer.

1 Corinthians 3:21-23
21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

Coming full circle to his remarks at the beginning of the chapter, Paul reminds the believers at Corinth here, his brethren, fellow fields, buildings, and holy temples of God, that they ought not to boast in men but to remember that they belonged to Christ who belongs to God. There is simply no way a person can read this chapter honestly and naturally and not understand what I've taken pains to point out from the chapter. It's right there on the surface of Paul's words, plain as day: Christians are not sinlessly perfect.

Sinners are not brothers of Christ.
They have a different father.
Paul's letters were addressed to churches. Who was in those churches can be determined by their actions.
Some were really repentant folks who walked in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Others were unrepentant and walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Paul differentiated the one from the other, making it possible tor the churches to do the same.
Casting out the unrepentant is still the mode of the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:32) today.

 

[Josef]

I know of people who hear this false teaching and fall away as they know they have remaining sin.

Hey All,
Is it false teaching? The same John who wrote:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Also wrote:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those of us who struggle, who war against the flesh, we are the ones who stayed. It would be sooo much easier to just walk away.
But love doesn't walk away.
Love doesn't leave.
Love fights the good fight of faith.
Love runs the race.
Love walks that walk no matter what.
Love don't quit.
Love don't give up. (Yeah I know its improper English.)

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

For my own understanding.
Are you saying you are without sin?

That is correct.

That you do not sin whatsoever?

Not a bit.

You have become like the Lord, perfect?

I obeyed Jesus' commandment in Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
I walk as Jesus walked, just as 1 John 2:6 says I would..."He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked."
All the glory goes to God!

 

[Hopeful 2]

He sounds like a bit like a Church of Christ person whose beliefs drift into a cult like area, insisting water baptism must take place for salvation to take place.

Why would anyone refuse to obey Peter's exhortation ? (Acts 2:38)
Paul didn't. (Acts 22:16)
The Ethiopian eunuch didn't. (Acts 8:36)
Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas didn't. (1 Cor 1:14-16)
The many at Corinth didn't. (Acts 18:8)
But you do ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed.

I am very aware of this teaching, and as other have said it comes from the Pentecostal/charismatic teachings.

No Christian will ever be sinless while in the flesh.

Good thing God made the way for us to no longer be "in the flesh".
We can graciously destroy it now, at our "immersion" into Christ's death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)
The result is freedom from sin ! (Rom 6:7)

 

[Hopeful 2]

I know of people who hear this false teaching and fall away as they know they have remaining sin.

If they have sin, they are not falling away from anything but a facade.

 

[Josef]

Was Jesus less holy before His death and resurrection ?
I think not.

Hey All,
Was He in all His glory while He was here on earth? Or was His glory veiled by his flesh? The disciples, prior to His resurrection, were able to look at Jesus without falling to their knees. The same was true after His resurrection and before His ascension. What changed that caused John's reaction? Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Jesus' voice also dropped Paul on the road to Damascus.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

I cannot begin to even think how someone is Biblically convinced they are without sin.

It blows my mind.

Here's how...."...How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. " (Rom 6:2-7)

17..."But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:17-18)

22..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
"He will have, if you were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)"
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Scripture is pretty clear. Repentance and baptism are two separate acts. Repentance always comes first. Repentance is the act that saves because salvation is an act of God. Baptism is an act of man.

But God tells men to do both things !
Turn from sin, and get your old sins washes away.
One without the other is useless.

It is the public confession of what has already happened. Unbelievers do not generally get baptized. Believers do baptism in obedience to the word of God. Paul was saved probably 4-5 days before he was baptized. But Jesus was speaking to Paul, and Paul was being obedient to Christ before baptism. Now are you going to tell us that Paul was still an unbeliever doing this? Of course not. Because salvation is of God, not man. The faith you are I have, with which we believe, is from God.

"You are not Christ's, as it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." "

Do you really believe you are qualified to make that call? Your post comes across as arrogant. Arrogance comes from pride. But I refuse to judge you by your post. It's not my job. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That is what Paul taught the Ephesians. That is what I believe. Tell me how Paul got it wrong.

I quote the scriptures. if you have problems, it is with them.

"The new creature shares nothing with the old creature that was destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ's death."
Then what do you call that thing your new creature is locked inside? I call it the sinful flesh.

How can it be sinful if it is reborn from God's seed ?
The converted are new creatures after being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Paul doesn't seem to share your sentiment. He is using himself as an example. He called it a war. If you are not at war with your flesh, then you know something Paul did not know. No offense, you are entitled to believe whatever you choose. But I am sticking to what Paul said.

You failed to notice that in Rom 8:2 Paul tells us what happened to the 'law of sin in his members'..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Again pointing out the reality that some of Rom. 7 was a narrative of Paul's pre-conversion past.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
I am an old man. I left something out of my post. I will correct it here as my edit time has run out. So here is what I wrote. Then afterwards, what I just remembered, and should have included in my post.

"Do you really believe you are qualified to make that call? Your post comes across as arrogant. Arrogance comes from pride. But I refuse to judge you by your post. It's not my job. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That is what Paul taught the Ephesians. That is what I believe. Tell me how Paul got it wrong. " My original post

I could not remember from where the verse that Hopful 2 used was quoted. Its from Galatians 5:24. I know now why it kept bothering me. The same Paul who wrote verse 5:24, also wrote 5:5.

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

If we are waiting for it, " . . .the hope of righteousness by faith," then it stands to reason that we have not received it yet. Paul again is including himself in the group (church) who is waiting. Paul is not contradicting himself some 20 verses later. You gotta do that rightly dividin ma'an. (Sorry. The old hippie in me gets out once in awhile.)

Keep walking everybody. (Which, btw, is in Gal. 5:25)
May God bless,
Taz

The hope of righteousness is the new vessel, and heaven with Christ Jesus and our new Father.
Righteousness is available here and now.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Is it false teaching? The same John who wrote:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Also wrote:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those of us who struggle, who war against the flesh, we are the ones who stayed. It would be sooo much easier to just walk away.
But love doesn't walk away.
Love doesn't leave.
Love fights the good fight of faith.
Love runs the race.
Love walks that walk no matter what.
Love don't quit.
Love don't give up. (Yeah I know its improper English.)

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Love doesn't cause sin either !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Was He in all His glory while He was here on earth? Or was His glory veiled by his flesh? The disciples, prior to His resurrection, were able to look at Jesus without falling to their knees. The same was true after His resurrection and before His ascension. What changed that caused John's reaction? Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Jesus' voice also dropped Paul on the road to Damascus.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Glory is a fabulous thing.
We won't have it till Jesus returns.
Holiness, however, is available to us right now !

 

[Josef]

Sinners are not brothers of Christ.
They have a different father.
Paul's letters were addressed to churches. Who was in those churches can be determined by their actions.
Some were really repentant folks who walked in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Others were unrepentant and walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Paul differentiated the one from the other, making it possible tor the churches to do the same.
Casting out the unrepentant is still the mode of the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:32) today.

Dude/Dudette, there is no Ephesians 3:32. Ephesians 3 ends at verse 21. Perhaps you meant a different book or chapter. You just made a mistake.

Now was that your spirit or your flesh that made the mistake? Obviously it was your flesh. Doesn't it stand to reason, logically, that if your flesh can make an error, it can sin? How can you logically refute that your flesh is capable of making a mistake? We all can see that your flesh does make mistakes. (Sorry for riding you so hard. But, "LUCY! Jou got some splanin to do.")

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Love doesn't cause sin either !

Never said it did.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Dude/Dudette, there is no Ephesians 3:32. Ephesians 3 ends at verse 21. Perhaps you meant a different book or chapter. You just made a mistake.

Ooops...Eph 3:21 !
Too bad there isn't a "verse check" on my computer.

Now was that your spirit or your flesh that made the mistake?

It was just a mistake.
Spirit vs. flesh has no bearing on it.

Obviously it was your flesh. Doesn't it stand to reason, logically, that if your flesh can make an error, it can sin?

As James says a sin requires temptation, enticement, lust, and conception, (James 1:14-15), mistyping numbers doesn't qualify as sin.
Had I done it on purpose to deceive someone, then a sin would have been committed.

How can you logically refute that your flesh is capable of making a mistake? We all can see that your flesh does make mistakes. (Sorry for riding you so hard. But, "LUCY! Jou got some splanin to do.")

Don't confuse "flesh" with "skin and bones".
Flesh, when mentioned in scripture, deals primarily with the world fixated mind.
It is juxtaposed with Spirit usually to show the difference between the two realms.
Paul uses the juxtaposing of Spirit and "flesh" technique well, in Romans 8.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Never said it did.

When you see sin, you can be sure there is no love involved.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is a false teaching that has infected some here and on other boards.

"Sinless perfection" is otherwise known as glorification, by and of itself it is not a heresy, the problem is cashing this check prematurely like the younger son demanding his inheritance from the father.