The Holy Spirit must be a Person

[WalterandDebbie]

1 Timoth 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Bible Study - The Word Manifest In The Bible Meaning, Jesus Said GOD Is A Spirit

Friday 12-22-23 6th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Tevet 8 5784, 2nd. Winter Day To make openly known; and appear, In the Bible, manifest is used to describe something that is evident or obvious. For example, God was manifest in the flesh, meaning that God revealed himself in human form...

christianforums.net

Love, Walter

 

[My Rock]

Bible Study - The Word Manifest In The Bible Meaning, Jesus Said GOD Is A Spirit

Friday 12-22-23 6th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Tevet 8 5784, 2nd. Winter Day To make openly known; and appear, In the Bible, manifest is used to describe something that is evident or obvious. For example, God was manifest in the flesh, meaning that God revealed himself in human form...

christianforums.net

Love, Walter

Very good

 

[Free]

............................................
It is true that the word for God (theos) [and all other persons in heaven] in the New Testament is masculine, and masculine pronouns (“he,” “him,” “himself”) are always used with it. The word “Father” is also in the masculine gender in the original Greek of the NT, and masculine pronouns are always used with it. The word “Son” is also in the masculine gender in the NT Greek, and masculine pronouns are always used with it. Certainly this is not surprising since God (Jehovah, the Father alone) has always been represented to his people as a living, conscious being, and Christ (Jesus, the Son) is always represented as a living, conscious person. It would be very strange, indeed, if they were not so described!

But “Holy Spirit” in the original Greek is neuter and therefore the neuter pronouns meaning “it,” “itself” are used with it in the original NT Greek! Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use “it” for the holy spirit (since it is really not a person, but God’s active force, a literal translation would be helpful in this case).

As the trinitarian New American Bible (Catholic), 1970 ed. admits:
“The Greek word for ‘spirit’ is neuter, and while we [trinitarians] use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek manuscripts employ ‘it.’” - New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., (footnote for John 14:17).

And, yet, it is an exegetical fallacy to conclude that since "spirit" is neuter that therefore the Holy Spirit is an "it," not a "he." First, according to Mounce, the gender of nouns, for the most part, don't indicate the gender of the object. That is, grammatical gender doesn't indicate personal gender.

Second, the gender of a noun never changes. Yes, “spirit” in the Greek is neuter. However, look at John 14:16, 26, 15:26 and 16:7, where “Helper,” parakletos, is masculine. According to the gender argument then, that means the Helper is a he. So, which is it? Is the Holy Spirit a "he" or an "it"? The Holy Spirit cannot be a “he” in one context and an "it" in another context.

Third, context matters. When we look at the contexts where the Holy Spirit is mentioned throughout the NT, we see numerous actions of personal agency, including the use of parakletos--Advocate, Counselor, Comforter, Helper.

Fourth, "spirit," ruach, in Hebrew is feminine, but masculine in Aramaic. Which are you going to go with? Jesus said that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me," which, according to the gender argument, shows that the Spirit is neuter. But that is a quote from Isa 61:1, where Spirit is feminine. So, again, which is it?

To sum, then, it is clear that the argument that the Holy Spirit is an "it" based on the neuter gender of “spirit” is fallacious.

Here is John 16:7-8 from the NWT:

7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. 8 And when that one comes, he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment:

It's interesting that in John 14:16, 26, and 15:26, the NWT avoids using personal pronouns, but not so here. The NWT is shown to be a poor, purposely corrupted translation that tries to remove the deity of Jesus and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. It just ends up contradicting itself because such things are so embedded in the texts that they cannot be fully removed.

And, apart from the exegetical fallacy above, "Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use “it” for the holy spirit (since it is really not a person, but God’s active force, a literal translation would be helpful in this case)," is fallaciously begging the question.

 

[kbmonday]

............................................
It is true that the word for God (theos) [and all other persons in heaven] in the New Testament is masculine, and masculine pronouns (“he,” “him,” “himself”) are always used with it. The word “Father” is also in the masculine gender in the original Greek of the NT, and masculine pronouns are always used with it. The word “Son” is also in the masculine gender in the NT Greek, and masculine pronouns are always used with it. Certainly this is not surprising since God (Jehovah, the Father alone) has always been represented to his people as a living, conscious being, and Christ (Jesus, the Son) is always represented as a living, conscious person. It would be very strange, indeed, if they were not so described!

But “Holy Spirit” in the original Greek is neuter and therefore the neuter pronouns meaning “it,” “itself” are used with it in the original NT Greek! Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use “it” for the holy spirit (since it is really not a person, but God’s active force, a literal translation would be helpful in this case).

As the trinitarian New American Bible (Catholic), 1970 ed. admits:
“The Greek word for ‘spirit’ is neuter, and while we [trinitarians] use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek manuscripts employ ‘it.’” - New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., (footnote for John 14:17).

Not only in the Greek, but also in the Hebrew Tanahk Ruach is feminine.

And, yet, it is an exegetical fallacy to conclude that since "spirit" is neuter that therefore the Holy Spirit is an "it," not a "he." First, according to Mounce, the gender of nouns, for the most part, don't indicate the gender of the object. That is, grammatical gender doesn't indicate personal gender.

Second, the gender of a noun never changes. Yes, “spirit” in the Greek is neuter. However, look at John 14:16, 26, 15:26 and 16:7, where “Helper,” parakletos, is masculine. According to the gender argument then, that means the Helper is a he. So, which is it? Is the Holy Spirit a "he" or an "it"? The Holy Spirit cannot be a “he” in one context and an "it" in another context.

Third, context matters. When we look at the contexts where the Holy Spirit is mentioned throughout the NT, we see numerous actions of personal agency, including the use of parakletos--Advocate, Counselor, Comforter, Helper.

Fourth, "spirit," ruach, in Hebrew is feminine, but masculine in Aramaic. Which are you going to go with? Jesus said that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me," which, according to the gender argument, shows that the Spirit is neuter. But that is a quote from Isa 61:1, where Spirit is feminine. So, again, which is it?

To sum, then, it is clear that the argument that the Holy Spirit is an "it" based on the neuter gender of “spirit” is fallacious.

Here is John 16:7-8 from the NWT:

7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. 8 And when that one comes, he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment:

It's interesting that in John 14:16, 26, and 15:26, the NWT avoids using personal pronouns, but not so here. The NWT is shown to be a poor, purposely corrupted translation that tries to remove the deity of Jesus and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. It just ends up contradicting itself because such things are so embedded in the texts that they cannot be fully removed.

And, apart from the exegetical fallacy above, "Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use “it” for the holy spirit (since it is really not a person, but God’s active force, a literal translation would be helpful in this case)," is fallaciously begging the question.

Very well articulated my beloved brother in Christ Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

I will not judge you in this brother. We each have our own walk, our own purpose within the body of Christ. I have come to a different understanding than you have, primarily through my study of the Hebrew Tanahk and the Prophets. That said, I will not make a judgement on your relationship with Him, as Jesus warned us not to do.
Matthew 5:22 (KJV) - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

In this passage, thou fool is a reference to an unbeliever. The term being used many times in Proverbs.
In my CURRENT understanding of Zechariah 12, Jesus is He whom is being discussed and His name in that scripture is YHWH. But that is my understanding and perhaps is where I need to focus for my spiritual growth. We should, all of us, always be willing to question our inherited spiritual leavening. We Christians have our own Talmud. I sincerely hope that we can each get past our manmade doctrines and come together in unity, but according to scripture that won't happen until Yeshua reigns on earth. I hope you have a wonderful day and may God bless you and yours.

Thank you. I also won't judge you my brother.

Regarding Zacharia 12:10, it's quoted in John 19:37 even though the quotes don't match each other, but they are supposed to. There are a lot of quotes of Old Testament verses in the New Testament that don't match each other. Isn't that interesting? There is probably a translation issue and not all of the versions and translations word this passage the same way. So I wouldn't say this means Jesus is YHWH because the context challenges that. Isaiah 53:10, for example, would mean Jesus is not YHWH when talking about the same subject.

While I know God absolutely has a preference for what is right and wrong, I believe He actually cares more about what we are doing with our time. There is honor in actively seeking the truth, admitting we could possibly not know it all, and leaving room to grow and God can work with that. However, I don't get the idea from Scripture that God is going to be judging us based on our Scriptural knowledge or lack thereof, but rather our deeds and if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of Jesus' followers, you will surely be rewarded.

 

[kbmonday]

Thank you. I also won't judge you my brother.

Regarding Zacharia 12:10, it's quoted in John 19:37 even though the quotes don't match each other, but they are supposed to. There are a lot of quotes of Old Testament verses in the New Testament that don't match each other. Isn't that interesting? There is probably a translation issue and not all of the versions and translations word this passage the same way. So I wouldn't say this means Jesus is YHWH because the context challenges that. Isaiah 53:10, for example, would mean Jesus is not YHWH when talking about the same subject.

While I know God absolutely has a preference for what is right and wrong, I believe He actually cares more about what we are doing with our time. There is honor in actively seeking the truth, admitting we could possibly not know it all, and leaving room to grow and God can work with that. However, I don't get the idea from Scripture that God is going to be judging us based on our Scriptural knowledge or lack thereof, but rather our deeds and if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of Jesus' followers, you will surely be rewarded.

Yes, our hearts and actions are judged, not our knowledge of scripture. If I may offer a gentle suggestion, which I need to do myself, and that is to avoid teaching others (in a pastoral role) something we are not absolutely positive about or that scripture is not perfectly clear on. The only reason for this suggestion is this: James 3:1 (KJV) - My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

 

[My Rock]

Agree with the last two posts very Good.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I must have read this one thousand times and never saw it until this thread,

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

This is insane. it ws right befire everyones eyes. He actually means, "Only a liar would ever call Jesus accursed."

Yikes!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

How in Heaven or earth could any theologian teach Jesus was accursed and be in agreement with His Spirit?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But beyond this my son, [about going further than the words given by one Shepherd], be warned: the writing of many books is endless [so do not believe everything you read], and excessive study and devotion to books is wearying to the body. Rcc.12:12 AMP

Tell that to best(?) selling authors of substitutionary or pensl atonement.

 

[electedbyHim]

Yes, our hearts and actions are judged, not our knowledge of scripture. If I may offer a gentle suggestion, which I need to do myself, and that is to avoid teaching others (in a pastoral role) something we are not absolutely positive about or that scripture is not perfectly clear on. The only reason for this suggestion is this: James 3:1 (KJV) - My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Scripture condemns those that claim that Jesus Christ is not God come in the flesh.

They are anti-christ and liars according to Scripture.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

 

[My Rock]

Scripture condemns those that claim that Jesus Christ is not God come in the flesh.

They are anti-christ and liars according to Scripture.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

The name "Jesus Christ" holds profound significance that ties directly to the passage in 1 John 4:2, "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." The name "Jesus" (Yeshua) means "Jehovah is salvation," signifying that God Himself has become our Savior. The title "Christ" (Christos) means "the Anointed One," referencing the Messiah who was promised throughout the Old Testament. When these names are combined as "Jesus Christ," they reveal the full identity and mission of God in the flesh—God’s plan for salvation fully realized in the manifestation of Himself in the person of Jesus, who is both the divine Savior and the anointed Messiah.

The passage in 1 John 4:2 emphasizes that recognizing and confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is essential to understanding the true Spirit of God. This declaration acknowledges that the one true God, Jehovah, manifested Himself in the person of Jesus, fully embodying His role as Savior and Messiah. This truth is not just a doctrinal statement but a revelation of God’s intimate involvement in human redemption. Denying that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is, therefore, a denial of God’s direct and personal engagement in saving humanity, as revealed through the incarnation. The passage underscores the importance of this revelation, distinguishing between the true Spirit of God and the spirit of antichrist, which rejects this foundational truth. The name "Jesus Christ" encapsulates the reality of God’s saving work in history, emphasizing the unity of God’s identity and His redemptive purpose.

Based on above info the new rendering is this:

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jehovah (Father God) is salvation and Anointed One is come in the flesh (Son) is of God."

 

[kbmonday]

Scripture condemns those that claim that Jesus Christ is not God come in the flesh.

They are anti-christ and liars according to Scripture.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Agreed, but I am not sure he has denied that Jesus is Messiah, nor that He has come in the flesh. I do not agree with his interpretation, but I haven't personally seen a denial of Jesus, nor of His divinity. Please forgive my trespass if I have offended you or if I am in error. I am pretty new here, so do not know anyone's positions. I am merely saying I have not seen those claims. May God Almighty bless you and yours my dear brother in Christ Jesus.

 

[electedbyHim]

The name "Jesus Christ" holds profound significance that ties directly to the passage in 1 John 4:2, "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." The name "Jesus" (Yeshua) means "Jehovah is salvation," signifying that God Himself has become our Savior. The title "Christ" (Christos) means "the Anointed One," referencing the Messiah who was promised throughout the Old Testament. When these names are combined as "Jesus Christ," they reveal the full identity and mission of God in the flesh—God’s plan for salvation fully realized in the manifestation of Himself in the person of Jesus, who is both the divine Savior and the anointed Messiah.

The passage in 1 John 4:2 emphasizes that recognizing and confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is essential to understanding the true Spirit of God. This declaration acknowledges that the one true God, Jehovah, manifested Himself in the person of Jesus, fully embodying His role as Savior and Messiah. This truth is not just a doctrinal statement but a revelation of God’s intimate involvement in human redemption. Denying that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is, therefore, a denial of God’s direct and personal engagement in saving humanity, as revealed through the incarnation. The passage underscores the importance of this revelation, distinguishing between the true Spirit of God and the spirit of antichrist, which rejects this foundational truth. The name "Jesus Christ" encapsulates the reality of God’s saving work in history, emphasizing the unity of God’s identity and His redemptive purpose.

Based on above info the new rendering is this:

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jehovah (Father God) is salvation and Anointed One is come in the flesh (Son) is of God."

The name "Jesus Christ" holds profound significance that ties directly to the passage in 1 John 4:2, "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." The name "Jesus" (Yeshua) means "Jehovah is salvation," signifying that God Himself has become our Savior. The title "Christ" (Christos) means "the Anointed One," referencing the Messiah who was promised throughout the Old Testament. When these names are combined as "Jesus Christ," they reveal the full identity and mission of God in the flesh—God’s plan for salvation fully realized in the manifestation of Himself in the person of Jesus, who is both the divine Savior and the anointed Messiah.

The passage in 1 John 4:2 emphasizes that recognizing and confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is essential to understanding the true Spirit of God. This declaration acknowledges that the one true God, Jehovah, manifested Himself in the person of Jesus, fully embodying His role as Savior and Messiah. This truth is not just a doctrinal statement but a revelation of God’s intimate involvement in human redemption. Denying that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is, therefore, a denial of God’s direct and personal engagement in saving humanity, as revealed through the incarnation. The passage underscores the importance of this revelation, distinguishing between the true Spirit of God and the spirit of antichrist, which rejects this foundational truth. The name "Jesus Christ" encapsulates the reality of God’s saving work in history, emphasizing the unity of God’s identity and His redemptive purpose.

Based on above info the new rendering is this:

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jehovah (Father God) is salvation and Anointed One is come in the flesh (Son) is of God."

I am not certain what this has to do with my comment about calling out those who claim that Jesus Christ is not God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But beyond this my son, [about going further than the words given by one Shepherd], be warned: the writing of many books is endless [so do not believe everything you read], and excessive study and devotion to books is wearying to the body. Rcc.12:12 AMP
Tell that to best(?) selling authors of substitutionary or pensl atonement.

That should be Ecc.12:13

 

[My Rock]

I was simply adding clarity to the verse mentioned. I don't think anyone was denying his divinity. Jesus was God from the beginning of His human life. The mystery of godliness. Jesus is the Father incarnate. Jesus is Jehovah. The Jews understood that Jesus claimed to be God. Jesus is the One on the throne. The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus has all the attributes and prerogatives of God. Not all may believe this though, which is sad.

 

[electedbyHim]

Agreed, but I am not sure he has denied that Jesus is Messiah, nor that He has come in the flesh. I do not agree with his interpretation, but I haven't personally seen a denial of Jesus, nor of His divinity. Please forgive my trespass if I have offended you or if I am in error. I am pretty new here, so do not know anyone's positions. I am merely saying I have not seen those claims. May God Almighty bless you and yours my dear brother in Christ Jesus.

You are fine.

I am not offended at all.

There are many on this forum who deny Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh and also the Trinity and in this thread.

Welcome to the forum.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Scripture condemns those that claim that Jesus Christ is not God come in the flesh.

They are anti-christ and liars according to Scripture.

That isn't what John means.
John means anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ (the prophesied Messiah) who was called accursed which the Holy Spirit eould never agree with...is a liar and the truth of the scriptures is not in him.
People who teach Jesus was a "pensl substitute"...seen as evil according to the Torah...is a liar.

Goodby anti-Christ theology.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

John MacArthur,
Pleased come visit CF.

 

[electedbyHim]

That isn't what John means.
John means anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ (the prophesied Messiah) who was called accursed which the Holy Spirit eould never agree with...is a liar and the truth of the scriptures is not in him.
People who teach Jesus was a "pensl substitute"...seen as evil according to the Torah...is a liar.

Goodby anti-Christ theology.

John absolutely means Jesus is God come in the flesh in those verses.

It is a testing of the spirit.

Please see the thread Son of God.