The Holy Trinity vs. Salvation

[Deborah13]

Are you saying that the Father is God and that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are deities (gods) from the Father?

Nope, that's not what I believe. They are truly three persons in One Godhead. I don't understand it, and to me it is truly a mystery as in, not something that I can conceive. But I believe it by faith.

Scripture tells us that God is Spirit. That Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. The Holy Spirit indwells every believer and is drawing unbelievers to Jesus, etc.
It does not saying the Father indwells us or that Jesus indwells.

1 Corinthians 13:12

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12 For now we (A)see in a mirror [a]dimly, but then (B)face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also (C)have been fully known.

Thayer's Lexicon
"face to face" is the GK that compliments the Hebrew "the face of God" = to discern perfectly His will, nature, and purposes

 

[Guest]

Are you saying that the Father is God and that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are deities (gods) from the Father?

Nope, that's not what I believe. They are truly three persons in One Godhead. I don't understand it, and to me it is truly a mystery as in, not something that I can conceive. But I believe it by faith.

Scripture tells us that God is Spirit. That Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. The Holy Spirit indwells every believer and is drawing unbelievers to Jesus, etc.
It does not saying the Father indwells us or that Jesus indwells.

Deb, that's exactly what I'm saying. We believe the same thing but you're not understanding that all the power, glory and wisdom are from God the Father. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father, my point exactly! Jesus isn't sitting in the Father's seat! What do you see sitting in the Father's seat; the spirit of God with all his power, glory and wisdom!! The Father and Jesus do not indwell us, rather the Holy Spirit that is from/of the Father and the characteristics of Jesus indwell us. Did the Holy Spirit not indwell Jesus when he walked the earth?? God the Father is Power, Glory and Wisdom sitting at the left hand of Jesus!!

 

[Fembot]

JLB, yes that is correct. Some might say being born of water is actually our first physical birth as a baby, but only through our belief and confessing do we obtain salvation through Jesus Christ; to be born again of the spirit. Danus, blessings friend. God draws us in through his grace and love, but not without us asking, seeking and knocking at the same speed. If I'm wrong, please discern truth. Matthew 7:7 - Jarrod, that's precisely right, the unbeliever who has decided to believe and confess isn't quite sure what he is believing and confessing in just yet. He must wait on the Holy Spirit to come to him, in God's good timing. Belief and Faith are synonyms of each other before salvation, but only after salvation does believing and faith turn to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I don't think it's even possible to be religious after salvation, because after God has revealed his love, mercy, peace unto you then it is no longer from a religious order. It's bigger than that because how is a God loving us first before we loved him religious. I don't think the saved necessarily follow religion after salvation, rather they are not thirsty to grow in his spirit and his Word; walking in the spirit and being thirsty for knowledge. We should pray on that.

Ok, so here's the big question. Is God the Father and Jesus the same person/being, or is Romans 10:9 referring just to the nature of God? If a person is believing and confessing, are they believing and confessing that Jesus is in fact God the Father or does it mean that Jesus is only a part of God. Jesus is God deity but not actually God the Father. Another way to put it is that yes, we believe that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead, but only through salvation do we understand that God the Father doesn't send himself to you rather he sends his Holy Spirit to you. Help me discern. Better yet, without using scripture what does everyone think? If you would like to use scripture, please feel free.

Could we be persecuting our brothers and sisters in Christ just because our meaning behind the Holy Trinity is different, or can we discern false prophets through the meaning of salvation.

If we reply without scripture then how is that really answering in truth? Our reality as Christians is based on Gods word. Scripture does state that one must have faith in Christ as their savior in order to have salvation. After faith does come a thrust for His word and acceptance of the Holy Spirit. If someone is truly born again, IMO, they would understand the Holy Trinity and seek God in prayer as well as in fellowship with fellow believers.

 

[Fembot]

Deb, that's exactly what I'm saying. We believe the same thing but you're not understanding that all the power, glory and wisdom are from God the Father. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father, my point exactly! Jesus isn't sitting in the Father's seat! What do you see sitting in the Father's seat; the spirit of God with all his power, glory and wisdom!! The Father and Jesus do not indwell us, rather the Holy Spirit that is from/of the Father and the characteristics of Jesus indwell us. Did the Holy Spirit not indwell Jesus when he walked the earth?? God the Father is Power, Glory and Wisdom sitting at the left hand of Jesus!!

For example: we have a LEFT brain and a RIGHT brain. But both combine as ONE brain working together. Do you agree that the Holy Trinity represents one God?

 

[Guest]

If we reply without scripture then how is that really answering in truth? Our reality as Christians is based on Gods word.

Hi Fembot, ty for your presence. Well, as I mentioned before the Father and Jesus do not indwell us, rather the Holy Spirit that is from/of the Father and the characteristics of Jesus indwell us. Did the Holy Spirit not indwell Jesus when he walked the earth?

Replying without scripture is us describing scripture through our imaginations. It's not a sin to use our imaginations if what we see is from the Holy Spirit. Have you ever pictured in your mind what Heaven will be like, I have. It is us painting pictures in our mind using the faith that God has given us through grace. Doesn't God's Word also paint us pictures in our mind since the words in the Bible become alive in our hearts after salvation? Words in general describes person/place/things. Are we not allowed to use our imaginations to draw pictures in our minds using scripture?

For example, it says in Mark 16:19 that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, so what is sitting at the left hand of Jesus? What or who do you see sitting in God's seat? The Holy Trinity represents one God with two God deities. The Holy Spirit and Jesus are natures of God the Father, but they are not God the Father himself. Why? because God the Father has the key to all the power, glory and wisdom. That's why he sends his spirit and his Word as a gift. If we were indwelled with God the Father himself, we wouldn't be able to withstand all his power, glory and wisdom. It would literally crush us. So, what or who do you see at the left hand of Jesus, your imagination shall see the truth. Blessings - Urk

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi everyone,

Isaiah 43:11.

Only God can save us.

John 10:30.

Jesus and God are one.

Acts 5:3-4.

Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, thus he lied to God.

Genesis 1:26.

This speaks of God in the plural yet it is understood to be singular=one.

 

[Arch Angle]

sounds like the word "family".

 

[Guest]

If we reply without scripture then how is that really answering in truth? Our reality as Christians is based on Gods word.

Genesis 11:6 says And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Ephesians 1:17-18 says that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.

2 Corinthians 10:4-5 - For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Our imagination is sanctified through the Holy Spirit. It's not about me, it's about Him and His Glory!

 

[tim-from-pa]

I just think that we all put Jesus in a box to a certain extent, he is infinite and we are finite. I do not see your point of resurrection of Jesus in the believers body. He IS alive, and by his resurrection He is able to make a new creation in us. He does not resurrect our flesh, He makes a new creature in us. He resurrects nothing in us, He makes us a new creature. Christ is resurrected and never resurrects Himself in us, He did that once for all. Now He makes us new creatures because He IS resurrected.

And if I missed the verses that he says He will resurrect Himself in us can you show me?

Another thing I would like to address is the Resurrections for humans:

The bible teaches that there are two types of resurrection.
Daniel 12:2; John 5:29; Acts 24:15

A. Resurrection unto judgment: Rev. 20:11-15.....unbelief only
B. Resurrection unto life: 1 Cor. 15:20-24.....belief only

Actually 3 resurrections. There's the first resurrection. Those who are in that one when Yahshua returns are blessed as they rule and reign with him.

Then there's the resurrection after the millennium for the Great White Throne Judgment, and in this resurrection others will have the opportunity to receive salvation. They will be raised in the flesh. These are people who never had the chance for salvation, or were never called to salvation. This is the general resurrection.

Then there's the resurrection of the wicked:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


There will be a few who will reject God's way of righteousness, and decide to go at it alone. They will ultimately be cast in the lake of fire where they will be burned up and destroyed forever (eternal fire) and thus no longer exist.

 

[Guest]

Then there's the resurrection after the millennium for the Great White Throne Judgment, and in this resurrection others will have the opportunity to receive salvation. They will be raised in the flesh. These are people who never had the chance for salvation, or were never called to salvation. This is the general resurrection.

Tim, is the general resurrection people that receive the Holy Spirit being made alive in Christ, in this lifetime as we now walk this earth?

 

[gr8grace]

Actually 3 resurrections. There's the first resurrection. Those who are in that one when Yahshua returns are blessed as they rule and reign with him.

Then there's the resurrection after the millennium for the Great White Throne Judgment, and in this resurrection others will have the opportunity to receive salvation. They will be raised in the flesh. These are people who never had the chance for salvation, or were never called to salvation. This is the general resurrection.

Then there's the resurrection of the wicked:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


There will be a few who will reject God's way of righteousness, and decide to go at it alone. They will ultimately be cast in the lake of fire where they will be burned up and destroyed forever (eternal fire) and thus no longer exist.

Yes, I was not talking about specific resurrections. I was saying TYPES of resurrections, we are resurrected for life or judgement. The 2 general categories of resurrection.

 

[EdenBorn]

I have a really good question everyone, possibly a groundbreaking revelation. Help me out with this one. Regardless if we think that the Holy Trinity is One God manifesting himself into three different ways or One God manifesting himself into three different persons, at the end of the day why does that matter as long as our way to salvation is the same. Romans 10:9 - What is your belief on how to obtain salvation in this lifetime, to be born again of the Holy Spirit and His Word? Think about it, is people's confusion about the Holy Trinity stopping them from obtaining salvation? It has been debated upon and fought over throughout the centuries of who God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are. Regardless if we think that Oneness Trinity or Non-Oneness is true, does it even matter if we don't even know what salvation is?

The Trinity is simply the metaphysical observation of the Christian God. The Logos, or Logic, consists of three beings: The Father, the eternally begotten Son, and the Spirit. If you keep in mind the word 'Logos', it is fairly easy to understand the metaphysical attributes of God: The three beings are a single logic.

But this is not needed for salvation. There is nothing to be gained out of Christianized Greek philosophy, which in retrospect, is what the trinity is even if it happens to be true in Scripture. In fact, even trinitarians sometimes propose modalism in their theologies without even realizing it. Calling Jesus God, for example, is unwittingly proposing modalism even though he is part of the Godhead. You can technically only really call God 'God' if you speak of the entire Trinity.

 

[Free]

The Trinity is simply the metaphysical observation of the Christian God. The Logos, or Logic, consists of three beings: The Father, the eternally begotten Son, and the Spirit. If you keep in mind the word 'Logos', it is fairly easy to understand the metaphysical attributes of God: The three beings are a single logic.

Yet John uses logos only of the Son.

But this is not needed for salvation. There is nothing to be gained out of Christianized Greek philosophy, which in retrospect, is what the trinity is even if it happens to be true in Scripture.

So there is nothing to be gained even if the Trinity is true in Scripture? Do you really want to stay with that statement? You are essentially saying that the nature of God as revealed in Scripture is unimportant.

In fact, even trinitarians sometimes propose modalism in their theologies without even realizing it. Calling Jesus God, for example, is unwittingly proposing modalism even though he is part of the Godhead. You can technically only really call God 'God' if you speak of the entire Trinity.

One could make the argument to polytheism perhaps but not moaldism. Calling Jesus God in no way proposes modalism since the very definition of 'God' for trinitarians includes the idea that the one being that is God coexists as three co-eternal Persons, where each can properly be called God as they all have the attributes that make God, God.

 

[John 8:32]

Tim, is the general resurrection people that receive the Holy Spirit being made alive in Christ, in this lifetime as we now walk this earth?

The general resurrection is the resurrection for those who have never had a chance. Chinese folk who lived 4000 years ago and never heard the name of Christ...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

God is not calling everyone today...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

There is coming a time, after the Millenium, when those who have not been called, will be. They will have a particular miracle occur to them that must occur in everyone God gives eternal life to...

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What books are opened? All 66 of them.

Then these will have to make the choice...

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There is no Great Controversy going on today. God is not standing around in heaven, wringing His hands, hoping desperately that men will accept Him while the Devil is getting them to go to hell. That is an SDA false doctrine. When God sets His hand to save the vast majority of man, He will do so. He is not dependant on a missionary somewhere taking the "gospel" message to a village in some backward part of the earth. He will not be denied if the missionary has a flat tire and the aged grandfather there dies minutes before the missionary can tell him about Jesus. he has a plan to save mankind and He will do so.

 

[Free]

The general resurrection is the resurrection for those who have never had a chance. Chinese folk who lived 4000 years ago and never heard the name of Christ...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

God is not calling everyone today...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

There is coming a time, after the Millenium, when those who have not been called, will be. They will have a particular miracle occur to them that must occur in everyone God gives eternal life to...

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What books are opened? All 66 of them.

Then these will have to make the choice...

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There is no Great Controversy going on today. God is not standing around in heaven, wringing His hands, hoping desperately that men will accept Him while the Devil is getting them to go to hell. That is an SDA false doctrine. When God sets His hand to save the vast majority of man, He will do so. He is not dependant on a missionary somewhere taking the "gospel" message to a village in some backward part of the earth. He will not be denied if the missionary has a flat tire and the aged grandfather there dies minutes before the missionary can tell him about Jesus. he has a plan to save mankind and He will do so.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic, but I really do not think that that is the case. It would be pretty obvious as to what decision for them to make.

As for God saving the "vast majority," Jesus says the opposite:

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (ESV)

But let's keep this on the topic of the Trinity and salvation.

 

[Guest]

The Trinity is simply the metaphysical observation of the Christian God. The Logos, or Logic, consists of three beings: The Father, the eternally begotten Son, and the Spirit. If you keep in mind the word 'Logos', it is fairly easy to understand the metaphysical attributes of God: The three beings are a single logic.

But this is not needed for salvation. There is nothing to be gained out of Christianized Greek philosophy, which in retrospect, is what the trinity is even if it happens to be true in Scripture. In fact, even trinitarians sometimes propose modalism in their theologies without even realizing it. Calling Jesus God, for example, is unwittingly proposing modalism even though he is part of the Godhead. You can technically only really call God 'God' if you speak of the entire Trinity.

The Holy Trinity is not complicated when you describe God with the right words. God the Father himself is separate from the Holy Spirit and the Son, as in God the Father has all the power/glory/widsom. His power/glory/wisdom is what separates God from God deity. That's all I'm saying here. I agree that it's not needed for salvation because the unbeliever does not know who God the Father is yet until after salvation. It can be as simple as saying if we believe and confess that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, we will be saved. In all honesty, people come to Jesus in all kinds of ways, but as unbelievers we are believing and confessing on the same thing.

 

[EdenBorn]

So there is nothing to be gained even if the Trinity is true in Scripture? Do you really want to stay with that statement? You are essentially saying that the nature of God as revealed in Scripture is unimportant.

You are visibly beating a straw man to misrepresent my belief. If belief in the Trinity was necessary for salvation, it would have been told in Scripture that you must believe it. The word is not even used in Scripture and was never indoctrinated until the Creeds.

It isn't found in plain reading, but rather critically deduced. The amount of Arians matched the amount of Trinitarians, and it's precisely because of that. So any trinitarian who tries to say it is 'obvious' is simply being dishonest. They knew about the Trinity before they found it in Scripture.

One could make the argument to polytheism perhaps but not moaldism. Calling Jesus God in no way proposes modalism since the very definition of 'God' for trinitarians includes the idea that the one being that is God coexists as three co-eternal Persons, where each can properly be called God as they all have the attributes that make God, God.

Modalism is the belief that God transforms rather then being three different beings. Hints the root phrase 'mode' in 'modalism'. When you call Jesus God, that is exactly what you imply. It's not really up for debate. That doesn't mean to say that it's wrong in saying God walked the Earth, but if one is going to argue semantics and theology, it is misleading and errant.

Everybody wants to be the leading authority on the Godhead, even though it is simplicity itself and all people really do is split hairs.

 

[Guest]

I have a really good question everyone, possibly a groundbreaking revelation.

God the Father has all the power/glory/wisdom.

 

[Free]

So there is nothing to be gained even if the Trinity is true in Scripture? Do you really want to stay with that statement? You are essentially saying that the nature of God as revealed in Scripture is unimportant.

You are visibly beating a straw man to misrepresent my belief.

You said: "There is nothing to be gained out of Christianized Greek philosophy, which in retrospect, is what the trinity is even if it happens to be true in Scripture. "

P1 There is nothing to be gained out of Christianized Greek philosophy.
P2 The Trinity is Christianized Greek philosophy.
C1 Therefore, there is nothing to be gained from the Trinity.

It sure looks like I have not presented a straw man and that my point stands.

If belief in the Trinity was necessary for salvation, it would have been told in Scripture that you must believe it. The word is not even used in Scripture and was never indoctrinated until the Creeds.

And yet the Bible is clear that salvation is dependent on who Jesus is and at least one passage suggests that it is dependent on understanding and believing that he is God. Once we acknowledge that we immediately thrust ourselves into a discussion on the Trinity. That the word "trinity" isn't found in Scripture is irrelevant as to whether it is true or not.

It isn't found in plain reading, but rather critically deduced. The amount of Arians matched the amount of Trinitarians, and it's precisely because of that. So any trinitarian who tries to say it is 'obvious' is simply being dishonest. They knew about the Trinity before they found it in Scripture.

Generalization. Just because you may not think that it is obvious doesn't mean that others haven't legitimately found it obvious. One need not have known about the Trinity prior to discovering it in Scripture, although they may not have put the name "Trinity" to it. It is obvious and no it is not dishonest to say so.

You can stand by your statement if you wish, but then I will require you to supply all you know of the hearts and minds of all Christians throughout history who have believed in the Trinity as support for such a claim.

Modalism is the belief that God transforms rather then being three different beings. Hints the root phrase 'mode' in 'modalism'. When you call Jesus God, that is exactly what you imply. It's not really up for debate.

I am well aware of what the error known as modalism is. And no, calling Jesus God does not imply modalism, and I agree that it really isn't up for debate. You are actually suggesting that when the Trinitarian calls Jesus God, he is somehow referring to a non-trinitarian definition of God. "God" can refer to all three or either one.

Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God, and that is not inconsistent with trinitarianism, nor does it imply modalism.

That doesn't mean to say that it's wrong in saying God walked the Earth, but if one is going to argue semantics and theology, it is misleading and errant.

What is misleading and errant? To say that God walked the Earth in human flesh?

Everybody wants to be the leading authority on the Godhead, even though it is simplicity itself and all people really do is split hairs.

But is it really splitting hairs? Jesus is the central figure of all of Scripture, in whom alone can we find salvation. How is it splitting hairs then when so much is at stake and dependent on just who Jesus is?

 

[Free]

God the Father has all the power/glory/wisdom.

If only the Father has all the power/glory/wisdom, then that is polytheism, not trinitarianism.