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The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

I don't think the law of the Old Testament applies to non-Jews. Which of us recognizes the jubilees? The commandments of Jesus Christ are our law. Actually, I think the law is something the Lord teaches us individually as we walk with him:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33 RSV
 
elijah23 said:
I don't think the law of the Old Testament applies to non-Jews. Which of us recognizes the jubilees? The commandments of Jesus Christ are our law. Actually, I think the law is something the Lord teaches us individually as we walk with him:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33 RSV

(Emphasis by TOG)
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What is the difference between Jews and the house of Israel?

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
You're avoiding the question.

The TOG​
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You didn't ask me a question.

I am asking you if you know the difference between the Torah and the law of Moses?


JLB
 
JLB said:
You didn't ask me a question.
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I didn't ask a question? What's this then?

TOG said:
What is the difference between Jews and the house of Israel?

The TOG​
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I believe that is a question. At least, that's what I intended for it to be. And although the context was a post by elijah23 the question wasn't specifically directed at him, and so could just as well have been for you.

The TOG​
 
TOG said -

the question wasn't specifically directed at him, and so could just as well have been for you.
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Will you answer this question?

What is the difference between the Torah and the law of Moses?


JLB
 
JLB said:
Will you answer this question?

What is the difference between the Torah and the law of Moses?


JLB
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Not until I get an answer to my question. I posted a question and I'm not going to let you change the subject until I get an answer.

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
Not until I get an answer to my question. I posted a question and I'm not going to let you change the subject until I get an answer.

The TOG​
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Then neither will I tell you the difference between Jews and the house of Israel.
 
Maybe my question wasn't clear enough, so I'll clarify it. Many people say that the law was only given to the Jews and since we are not Jews, the law doesn't apply to us. These same people claim that they are not under the Old Covenant but the New Covenant. But the Bible says that the New Covenant was made with "the house of Judah and the house of Israel". I realize that the word "Jew" originally only referred to the tribe of Judah, but the way it's most commonly used today, it refers to all descendants of Israel. When used in that way, which is the most common way people use it, the word "Jews" and the phrase "the house of Judah and the house of Israel" refer to the same group, at least as far as I can see. I would like to hear somebody explain how they differentiate this into two groups. Anybody may feel free to answer.

The TOG​
 
JLB said:
Then neither will I tell you the difference between Jews and the house of Israel.
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Interesting. If I don't answer your question, you won't answer mine, but if I do answer your question, you will have successfully changed the subject and we'll never get around to my question.

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
Maybe my question wasn't clear enough, so I'll clarify it. Many people say that the law was only given to the Jews and since we are not Jews, the law doesn't apply to us. These same people claim that they are not under the Old Covenant but the New Covenant. But the Bible says that the New Covenant was made with "the house of Judah and the house of Israel". I realize that the word "Jew" originally only referred to the tribe of Judah, but the way it's most commonly used today, it refers to all descendants of Israel. When used in that way, which is the most common way people use it, the word "Jews" and the phrase "the house of Judah and the house of Israel" refer to the same group, at least as far as I can see. I would like to hear somebody explain how they differentiate this into two groups. Anybody may feel free to answer.

The TOG​
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Now you know why I asked you the difference between the Torah and the law of Moses.

Jews and House of Israel are the same, but given the context could mean Jews = Children of Judah, however the New Testament does not make this distinction.

The New Covenant, like the law of Moses must take into account the Abrahamic Covenant as the Master Covenant that these are a part of.

The law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The New Covenant replaced the law of Moses and is a fresh version, not different from the Abrahamic Covenant.

Once this is understood, then there is room for discussion in this matter.

If one tries to isolate the law from the Abrahamic Covenant, then there will be misunderstanding.


JLB
 
People talk about the "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" as if there were only two covenants mentioned in the Bible. The fact is that there are many covenants. The major covenants mentioned in the Old Testament are...
  • The covenant with Noah
  • The covenant with Abraham
  • The covenant at Mt. Sinai
  • The covenant with David
None of those covenants were made with just one person. They were made with a person/people and his/their descendants. So, what happens when a person is a descendant of more than one of those? For example, Isaac was a descendant of Abraham, as well as of Noah. The people who entered the Promised Land were descendants of Noah, Abraham and of the people who were at Mt. Sinai. Which covenant were they members of? Was it only the newest covenant that was valid, or the others as well? I believe that a person is a member of every covenant that was made with a group to which he belongs. We who are members of the New Covenant are all descendants of Noah, so we are also members of that covenant. As far as the "Old Covenant" (which I prefer to call the Sinai covenant) goes, to determine whether it applies to us, we simply need to see with whom it was made and whether we are part of that group.

The "with whom" part is pretty simple. It was made with all the people who were at Mt. Sinai and their descendants. The people who were there were the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and those who had joined themselves to them. Even though some were not physical descendants of Israel, they were collectively known as the Israelites, and their kingdom became known as Israel. Those who are part of Israel are members of the Sinai covenant. The other part - whether we are members of that group - is a little trickier. Most of us are not physical descendants of those who were present at Mt. Sinai when the covenant was made, but what about "joining ourselves to" Israel. The Bible says that Gentile Christians are "grafted onto" Israel (Rom. 11:11-24). If we are part of Israel by virtue of being grafted in, that would make us part of the covenants that apply to Israel. And then there is this...

Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31 ESV)
​
The New Covenant was made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah". We can only be members of the New Covenant if we are part of the group that it was made with. If we are not either of the house of Judah or the house of Israel, then we cannot be members of the New Covenant. But if we are members, then we are also members of the Sinai covenant, since it was made with the same group of people. The law cannot be separated from the Sinai covenant. It is an integral part of it. If we are members of the New Covenant, then we are also members of the Sinai covenant and the law is applicable to us.

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
People talk about the "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" as if there were only two covenants mentioned in the Bible. The fact is that there are many covenants. The major covenants mentioned in the Old Testament are...
  • The covenant with Noah
  • The covenant with Abraham
  • The covenant at Mt. Sinai
  • The covenant with David
None of those covenants were made with just one person. They were made with a person/people and his/their descendants. So, what happens when a person is a descendant of more than one of those? For example, Isaac was a descendant of Abraham, as well as of Noah. The people who entered the Promised Land were descendants of Noah, Abraham and of the people who were at Mt. Sinai. Which covenant were they members of? Was it only the newest covenant that was valid, or the others as well? I believe that a person is a member of every covenant that was made with a group to which he belongs. We who are members of the New Covenant are all descendants of Noah, so we are also members of that covenant. As far as the "Old Covenant" (which I prefer to call the Sinai covenant) goes, to determine whether it applies to us, we simply need to see with whom it was made and whether we are part of that group.

The "with whom" part is pretty simple. It was made with all the people who were at Mt. Sinai and their descendants. The people who were there were the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and those who had joined themselves to them. Even though some were not physical descendants of Israel, they were collectively known as the Israelites, and their kingdom became known as Israel. Those who are part of Israel are members of the Sinai covenant. The other part - whether we are members of that group - is a little trickier. Most of us are not physical descendants of those who were present at Mt. Sinai when the covenant was made, but what about "joining ourselves to" Israel. The Bible says that Gentile Christians are "grafted onto" Israel (Rom. 11:11-24). If we are part of Israel by virtue of being grafted in, that would make us part of the covenants that apply to Israel. And then there is this...
Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31 ESV)
​
The New Covenant was made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah". We can only be members of the New Covenant if we are part of the group that it was made with. If we are not either of the house of Judah or the house of Israel, then we cannot be members of the New Covenant. But if we are members, then we are also members of the Sinai covenant, since it was made with the same group of people. The law cannot be separated from the Sinai covenant. It is an integral part of it. If we are members of the New Covenant, then we are also members of the Sinai covenant and the law is applicable to us.

The TOG​
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I pretty sure you believe that ethnic Jews, Israel, have a God given right to the land, State of Israel.
If it is correct that we are grafted into the ethnic nation of Israel then what does that say about that right to the land?
 
Deborah13 said:
I pretty sure you believe that ethnic Jews, Israel, have a God given right to the land, State of Israel.
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Absolutely.

Deborah13 said:
If it is correct that we are grafted into the ethnic nation of Israel then what does that say about that right to the land?
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The land was promised to Abraham and his physical descendants. When we are grafted into Israel, there is no biological change. We do not become physical descendants of Jacob, and so the promise of the land does not belong to us. That promise was only given to physical descendants, not those who joined themselves to Israel. The law, on the other hand, was given to those who joined themselves to Israel, as well as the physical descendants of Jacob. That's why the law also applies to those who are grafted into Israel.

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
Absolutely.



The land was promised to Abraham and his physical descendants. When we are grafted into Israel, there is no biological change. We do not become physical descendants of Jacob, and so the promise of the land does not belong to us. That promise was only given to physical descendants, not those who joined themselves to Israel. The law, on the other hand, was given to those who joined themselves to Israel, as well as the physical descendants of Jacob. That's why the law also applies to those who are grafted into Israel.

The TOG​
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I could be wrong but in the OT it seems to me that proselytes had a right to live in the land just like any other ethnic Israelite?
 
Deborah13 said:
I could be wrong but in the OT it seems to me that proselytes had a right to live in the land just like any other ethnic Israelite?
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No, you are not wrong. But many people were allowed to live in the land to whom it was not promised. The Israelites never drove out all the previous inhabitants. They were allowed to continue to live in the land, but it was never promised to them. I could move to Israel and become a citizen and live there for the rest of my life, but that is not promised to me, at least not in this life. But where will the New Jerusalem be and who will live there? Perhaps we will live in the entire promised land after Jesus returns, but for now, it's only promised to descendants of Abraham.

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
No, you are not wrong. But many people were allowed to live in the land to whom it was not promised. The Israelites never drove out all the previous inhabitants. They were allowed to continue to live in the land, but it was never promised to them. I could move to Israel and become a citizen and live there for the rest of my life, but that is not promised to me, at least not in this life. But where will the New Jerusalem be and who will live there? Perhaps we will live in the entire promised land after Jesus returns, but for now, it's only promised to descendants of Abraham.

The TOG​
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I hadn't really thought that much about this until now but it seems that if we can even find the rare occurrence where someone other than a physical descendant inheriting land than we cannot say that it is only the physical seed.
Does the scripture below point to a non-descendant inheriting land?


This area would have included Hebron
Num 34:12 And the border shall go down to Jordan, and the goings out of it shall be at the salt sea: this shall be your land with the coasts thereof round about.
Num 34:13 And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying, This is the land which ye shall inherit by lot, which the LORD commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half tribe:

Jos 14:5 As the LORD commanded Moses, so the children of Israel did, and they divided the land.
Jos 14:6 Then the children of Judah came unto Joshua in Gilgal: and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite said unto him, Thou knowest the thing that the LORD said unto Moses the man of God concerning me and thee in Kadeshbarnea.
Jos 14:13 And Joshua blessed him, and gave unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh Hebron for an inheritance.
Jos 14:14 Hebron therefore became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite unto this day, because that he wholly followed the LORD God of Israel.
 
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