The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[Deborah13]

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people (the Israelites), but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.

neighbor = (H7453, brother, husband, fellow, friend, kindred)

When the man asked Jesus 'who is my neighbor' and Jesus tells the story he says that it's a Levite that passed by. The man has no raiment and he's half dead. Jesus points out that the Samaritan, a pagan, does the right thing that the Levite should have done and knew he should have done it.
So when I say that I can see why some of the people were confused it is because the leaders were not teaching them everything correctly and the nuances of the law could be tricky, I think.
When Jesus said to the Pharisees that they weren't coming into the kingdom and they were keeping out those who would, I don't think He was just talking about them not accepting Him. I think He meant they had been doing that already. There was a raiment that were saved by faith but if the leaders were teaching incorrectly. Here is the one that says........

Lev 19:34 But the stranger (H1616) that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
So here is an foreigner, an alien but he dwells with you meaning as a guest for any reason. Maybe just because he needed a place to lay his head.

I think it must have been like many in churches today. I think they read the Torah every Sabbath but I don't know if it was all the laws or not. Many are wrapped up in the two commandments that Jesus gave. But still I think at least some of them were of my intelligence and I think it could be confusing.
Jesus made it so simple just love the Lord and everyone you meet and help those you may never meet.

 

[agua.]

Mat 22:37-40 KJV Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Jews had no reason not to understand the 2 great commands. Some did.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't think it necessarily takes 2 people to make a covenant because the covenant with Abraham was sealed while he was asleep I think ie. God ratified it with Himself.

This is when I think it was ratified.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

I guess you could say that God ratified it with Himself. I've thought of it as being with Jesus, separately but don't ask to me explain that because I can't.

[/quote]The Mosaic was made after Yahweh gave the laws to Moses.

Exo 24:4-8 KJV And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. (5) And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. (6) And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. (7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. (8) And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.[/quote]

I could agree with that. I was thinking of just both that.
Exo 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

 

[agua.]

This is when I think it was ratified.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

I guess you could say that God ratified it with Himself. I've thought of it as being with Jesus, separately but don't ask to me explain that because I can't.

Ok sure that makes sense. The smoking furnace and the burning lamp nice catch.

I could agree with that. I was thinking of just both that.Exo 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

The blood/sacrifice seals/ratifies the covenant I think.

 

[Deborah13]

Mat 22:37-40 KJV Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Jews had no reason not to understand the 2 great commands. Some did.

Some had personal relationships with God. I think they were the ones who realized that they could never manage to do it all right all the time. I'm talking about the common people not prophets and people like David who knew the Lord from his youth.

 

[agua.]

Some had personal relationships with God. I think they were the ones who realized that they could never manage to do it all right all the time. I'm talking about the common people not prophets and people like David who knew the Lord from his youth.

There were others aside from the prophets/Kings etc who understood. There were at least 7 thousand others when Elijah thought he was the only faithful servant. There has always been a faithful remnant of people, some common like you and me, who understood the grace of God and the spirit of laws.

 

[Deborah13]

Ok sure that makes sense. The smoking furnace and the burning lamp nice catch.
The blood/sacrifice seals/ratifies the covenant I think.

I think the people had to agree to do it, just like they did when Moses brought them the 10 commandments. They said the same thing then.

I think it's like when a person accepts the Lord. We don't just accept Him as Savior but as our Lord.
We are agreeing with Him that He is our Lord.

 

[Deborah13]

There were others aside from the prophets/Kings etc who understood. There were at least 7 thousand others when Elijah thought he was the only faithful servant. There has always been a faithful remnant of people, some common like you and me, who understood the grace of God and the spirit of laws.

Yike, ops, I left out the word 'not'. "I'm Not talking about the prophets....." I edited it in my post.
I think, that there are many, many more. That's what I believe in my heart anyway.

EDIT again, I had it right the first time. Read it again please.
Maybe it's the way I wrote it.

 

[Deborah13]

There were others aside from the prophets/Kings etc who understood. There were at least 7 thousand others when Elijah thought he was the only faithful servant. There has always been a faithful remnant of people, some common like you and me, who understood the grace of God and the spirit of laws.

"Some had personal relationships with God. I think they were the ones who realized that they could never manage to do it all right all the time. I'm talking about the common people not prophets and people like David who knew the Lord from his youth."

The common people, having a personal relationship with the Lord is what I was referring to. Not the prophets and ......

 

[JLB]

I have a question for you.
It takes two people to make a covenant, correct?
When was the covenant of the Law of Moses made with the Israelites?

The Word seems to say, 430 years after the Covenant made with Abraham, however it may be that Paul was using a known time as a reference to make his legal point.

The later is most likely the case.

40 Now the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years--on that very same day--it came to pass that all the armies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. Exodus 12:40-41

This is a reference as to when the covenant of the Law of Moses was made, in relationship to the Abrahamic Covenant.

If you want a specific time then I gave give that as well, however it won't be a historical date such as 1987 BC.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Question were the Jewish Christians told to do/or not do, different laws than the non-Jewish Christians?
I don't think so.

Yes they were.

The law of Moses required that a person go present himself to a Levite Priest, with the appropriate sacrifice for a specific sin.

The New Covenant specifies that we -

Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. James 5:18

and again -

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


JLB

 

[JLB]

I have a good question. How did people know the 10 commandments before God revealed them to Moses and Moses revealing them to others.

They were taught them by God Himself, which is what God set forth from the beginning.

God wanted Adam to know Him and learn from Him and not some other source.

This is how Abraham learned God's Laws and commandments.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:4-5

This is how we are to learn as well, in the New Covenant -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34

John says it this way -

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


Peter is a good example of this -

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17


Peter learned Directly from God himself -

... for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


Learning and hearing from God and being led by the Spirit is the foundation on which the Lord will build His Church.

The rock or foundation of the Church is that we hear and are taught by God Himself.

The Rock is not Peter, as some teach, but rather the rock or foundation is that we learn and hear from God directly, as God has always intended from the garden with Adam, as well as Jesus our example.

When ever you read the phrase "by faith" in the Bible, it is associated with hearing and obeying God.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Yes they were.

The law of Moses required that a person go present himself to a Levite Priest, with the appropriate sacrifice for a specific sin.

The New Covenant specifies that we -

Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. James 5:18

and again -

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

JLB

I think maybe you misread my post? Both were Christians, Jew and non-Jew.

 

[JLB]

I think maybe you misread my post? Both were Christians, Jew and non-Jew.

My answer applies to Christians, whether Jew or non - Jew -

The law of Moses required that a person go present himself to a Levite Priest, with the appropriate sacrifice for a specific sin.

The New Covenant specifies that we -

Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. James 5:18

and again -

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

The New Covenant person had different laws than the Jews who were under the law.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

They were taught them by God Himself, which is what God set forth from the beginning.

God wanted Adam to know Him and learn from Him and not some other source.

This is how Abraham learned God's Laws and commandments.

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:4-5

So before God gave them to Moses, God placed the commandments and the law of God in (their hearts).

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't word my question well, sorry. This is what you said...
"Luke Chapter 1, John had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him even before he was born and after his birth he grew and waxed strong in spirit as his full concentration was on the knowledge of salvation as being the forerunner of Christ."

So what I should have asked.....
I don't understand why you would think John never sinned. It is my understanding that Jesus is the only man to ever live who never sinned?



I don't understand. The Christian Jew were/are do not have different laws than any other Christian.
In Christ there is no Jew or Greek (non-Jew).
Surely the covenant that all Christians are a part of through faith in Christ are not lawless but I don't see what that has to do with Moses Law that was given to the Israelites until the Seed, the Messiah came?
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

I believe Peter is telling these Christian Jews that they need to obey Roman Empire laws and be grateful for good rulers who punish evil. He wants the other citizens to see that they are law abiding citizens and show them good works to glorify God.

John was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was even born. In Luke 1:80 it says when he was a child he grew and waxed strong in the spirit and then went out to the desert. While out in the desert by himself the Holy Spirit was preparing him until the time of him calling those to repentance. I really do not see John having any sin found in him since his directive was always focused on the Holy Spirit directing him before and after his birth.

You are right saying there are not different laws for the Jew and the Christian. The written law was our schoolmaster that brought us to the knowledge of sin, but the law was also a curse if not followed to the letter. The law is not dead as some say it is, but only now fulfilled as we have received the Spirit by the hearing of faith which is Christ Jesus who was made a curse for us as the law is not of faith and no man can be justified by the law.

It was through the blessing of Abraham and his seed that God established His covenant of faith that even now the Gentiles might receive the promise of the Spirit through that of Christ Jesus through His death and resurrection that has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for all as Christ has fulfilled that of the law that we no longer live under the bondage of the law, but now are under the new covenant of grace that we walk in love that fulfills all the law. (Ref: Galatians Chapter 3)

Concerning 1Peter 2:13, 14 we are to obey the laws of the government as God established ruling authorities over us, but when those ruling authorites make void that of what God already established to be good for us and turn it to evil then they try to make God void and we are to flee from that which is evil.

Remember that there are laws that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws keep us in line with the will of God, which is love and for us to walk in love as we present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us as a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

 

[for_his_glory]

God told them to do this at that time in history when they were conquering the tribes on the land God had given them but they are not laws.
Here is a good Jewish site that lists all the laws. They are arranged by category so that it is easier to study them and they give the corresponding scripture. The site is written by a practicing Jewish person.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

I took that as being law # 602 under Wars - To exterminate the seven Canaanite nations from the land of Israel (Deut. 20:17)

This is the same website I use. So much info there.

 

[JLB]

So before God gave them to Moses, God placed the commandments and the law of God in (their hearts).

Abraham learned directly from God.

Anything is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Mat 22:37-40 KJV Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The Jews had no reason not to understand the 2 great commands. Some did.

'That' (reason) was the trouble (as with all flesh) - the Jews put the Messiah to death instead of following Him. They had their 'reasons', and bowed down to that instead of to Yhwh. Just like in s.d.m and g.m.rr.h, just like in the days of Noah, just like today (both Jews and gentiles). People choose by 'reason' instead of by faith, and they will (have to me) quite readily tell you their 'reason' if you ask them. They have no care for eternal life, not enough care anyway to obey what Jesus says to obtain it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This is just something that my crazy mind thought of in the comparison of these two verses compared to the Mosaic law. Notice the word hang in both verses. We know Jesus died to set man free from the curse of the law being made a curse for all of us as he hung on the tree (cross). There was no man that was justified by the law, but only by faith in God as in being the seed of Abraham as even the Gentile was grafted into that of the seed of faith through the covenant God made with Abraham and now by the covenant of grace. Now, we know God is love for that is His will for us to love one another. Love (Jesus) has taken all the shadows of the law and prophets in the OT within himself being that shadow of Messiah come in the NT that was prophesied by the prophets and fulfilled the laws and prophecies by hanging on a tree (cross). How did he fulfill them all, by love. Did Jesus destroy the laws, no, he fulfilled them, Matthew 5:17.

Notice the first 10 laws God gave to Moses:
To know that God exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6)
Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3)
Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16)
To hallow God's name (Lev. 22:32)
Not to profane God's name (Lev . 22:32)
To know that God is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4)
To love God (Deut. 6:5)
To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20)
Not to put the word of God to the test (Deut. 6:16)
To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9)

We can say we know God, but what we know are His attributes. None of us can even fathom that of God and His ways, but can only love Him and walk in obedience to His spoken word. God gave certain laws to that of the governing authorities that are over us for our own well being and protection and if we are truly walking in the love of God then we will know how to conduct ourselves within His laws and flee from those evil laws established by man who try to void out that of God.