Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[JLB]

I agree with you, but before I blocked Hopeful 2, he didn't say that there was some scripture that wasn't God inspired... He said that there were some parts of scripture that were not meant for us, and that is true.

The Levitical law was meant for Israel, and when Jesus came, died on the cross, and rose again on the third day, His death on the cross put an end for the need of literal sacrifices on an altar. Because of His finished work, New Testament Christians no longer have to abide by the Levitical law in order to be saved.

I can wear jeans and eat bacon, and still be saved.

His “belief” is founded on the idea that through water baptism, our physical body is born again sinless.

This of course is contrary to scripture.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Our spirit is reborn by the Spirit, not our flesh. We have the same physical body that we had when we were born from our mothers womb; when we were born of water.

He was taught and therefore he believes his physical body LITERALLY died and was literally resurrected from the dead when he was water baptized.


He therefore believes his physical body is sinless and perfect.


Furthermore he believes if a person commits just one sin, they were never truly saved.




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

What's your point?

The point is that the Law could not save a man because men wouldn't keep all of it.
Rom 8:3..."For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
Jesus gave us something better than the Law.
Something the "flesh" cannot prevail over.

You are advising men to keep something that is weak through the flesh.
Perhaps that is the reason you so despise the idea of perfect obedience to God, in this thread ?
Your ideal includes sinning !

 

[Hopeful 2]

His “belief” is founded on the idea that through water baptism, our physical body is born again sinless.

This of course is contrary to scripture.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Our spirit is reborn by the Spirit, not our flesh. We have the same physical body that we had when we were born from our mothers womb; when we were born of water.

He was taught and therefore he believes his physical body LITERALLY died and was literally resurrected from the dead when he was water baptized.


He therefore believes his physical body is sinless and perfect.


Furthermore he believes if a person commits just one sin, they were never truly saved.

Why do you think rebirth is of the flesh ?

 

[JLB]

Why do you think rebirth is of the flesh ?

You are the one that says the physical body is born again.

The body is not born again, but our spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


You still have the same physical body you were born with from your mother.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are the one that says the physical body is born again.

Please answer the question, Why do you think rebirth is of the flesh?

The body is not born again, but our spirit

Do you have a scripture saying we are only partially reborn, or that some of the old man was not destroyed ?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

As we are reborn of the Spirit, all of the new man is of the Spirit !

You still have the same physical body you were born with from your mother.

I disagree.
The old me was destroyed, just like Paul wrote in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
And..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

Paul also wrote..."That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." (Rom 8:4-5)
Are you after the flesh or after the Spirit ?

 

[JLB]

Please answer the question, Why do you think rebirth is of the flesh?

I don't think rebirth is of the flesh.

You believe that.

 

[JLB]

Do you have a scripture saying we are only partially reborn, or that some of the old man was not destroyed ?

I have a scripture that says flesh is born of flesh, and spirit is born of the Spirit.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


If you have a scripture that says our flesh is born again, then please post it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't think rebirth is of the flesh.

You believe that.

Then you must believe you still walk in the flesh.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I have a scripture that says flesh is born of flesh, and spirit is born of the Spirit.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

But you don't believe "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".
Why ?

If you have a scripture that says our flesh is born again, then please post it.

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom 8:8-10)
Is Christ in you ?

Here is what happened to the old me..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)

Without the old man's destruction, a new creature could not be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

Paul says this about the new creature..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ends the old man's life, and causes a new man who has been reborn of the Spirit to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
The new man walks in and after the Spirit instead of in and after the flesh.

 

[JLB]

Then you must believe you still walk in the flesh.

Why is walking in the flesh a bad thing if it is sinless?

Here is what Paul teaches water baptized Christians-

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

The sin in the mortal body of a born again water baptized Christian, desires to rule over us; to make us its slave.
A slave of unrighteousness.

Paul teaches that we are to present the members of our body as instruments of righteousness.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Romans 6:13

We will receive new sinless bodies when we are resurrected from the dead, which occurs at His coming.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Your error is you were taught falsely that the resurrection of the dead occurs at water baptism instead of at His coming.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is what happened to the old me..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)

Yes the answer is crucifying the flesh daily, by the Spirit.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

As we see, water baptism is not mentioned nor is the key to crucifying the sinful deeds of the body. Paul learned this from Jesus Christ.

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luke 9:23

Again, your error is you were taught falsely that your physical body was born again “sinless” at water baptism.



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why is walking in the flesh a bad thing if it is sinless?

It isn't.
Walking in skin and bones is not the same thing as walking in the "flesh". that is defined as a worldly oriented mind

Here is what Paul teaches water baptized Christians-
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Obey and live !
Just because the vessel is mortal does not make it sinful.
Jesus had a mortal body, and it wasn't sinful.
So did John the baptist, but he had the Holy Ghost from his birth.

The sin in the mortal body of a born again water baptized Christian, desires to rule over us; to make us its slave.
A slave of unrighteousness.

There is no sin in the born again vessel.
It has been gendered by the seed of God !
So unless you are accusing God of providing Himself a sin filled temple to live in, it is time to change your POV.

Paul teaches that we are to present the members of our body as instruments of righteousness.

Correct, and he is not commanding the impossible.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

Right, and so do I.

We will receive new sinless bodies when we are resurrected from the dead, which occurs at His coming.

We will receive new vessels when we are resurrected, but we already have bodies worthy of the Holy Spirit's residency now !

Can you same one single sin a body can commit ?
If not, why accuse it of containing sin ?

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
Your error is you were taught falsely that the resurrection of the dead occurs at water baptism instead of at His coming.

Not at all.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins entails our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ from Christ's grave.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:3-5)
I hope that clears things up for you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes the answer is crucifying the flesh daily, by the Spirit.

That may have been fine in the OT when it was taught, but now in the NT we don't need to keep killing somethign tht has already been destroyed. (Rom 6:6)

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

As we see, water baptism is not mentioned nor is the key to crucifying the sinful deeds of the body. Paul learned this from Jesus Christ.

Why re-cover something he had written just two chapters earlier ?
BTW, what you decipher as 'put to death', I see as "keep dead".

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luke 9:23

That is a very pertinent scripture, when it was spoken.
But not anymore.
I took up that cross, and went with Christ to "His" death, burial, and resurrection.
I exhort you to do the same, after a true repentance from sin.

Again, your error is you were taught falsely that your physical body was born again “sinless” at water baptism.

It sure isn't my body anymore.
Like Paul, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
Do you make the same claim ?

 

[JLB]

That may have been fine in the OT when it was taught, but now in the NT we don't need to keep killing somethign tht has already been destroyed. (Rom 6:6)

Crucifying the flesh is what the New Testament teaches.

Where is crucifying the flesh taught in the Old Testament?

 

[JLB]

Why re-cover something he had written just two chapters earlier ?
BTW, what you decipher as 'put to death', I see as "keep dead".

I see that Paul says put to death…


For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13


This is a present tense daily operation as Paul and Jesus teach in the New Testament.


I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Crucifying the flesh is what the New Testament teaches.

Right, by being "immersed" into Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)

Where is crucifying the flesh taught in the Old Testament?

The presage is taught when Jesus said...

1. Matthew 10:38
   And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
2. Matthew 16:24
   Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
3. Mark 8:34
   And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
4. Mark 10:21
   Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
5. Luke 9:23
   And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

What happens on a cross ?
Death !

 

[Hopeful 2]

I see that Paul says put to death…
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

Your version of the KJV of the bible says it.
It is written..."For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Rom 8:13)
Either "kill it" or "keep it dead", the result is the same.
Walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" !

This is a present tense daily operation as Paul and Jesus teach in the New Testament.

Your POV surprises me, considering that Paul told us how to do it in one felt swoop, in Rom 6:3-7.

I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31

Me too; a little closer to the end of this vessel's life everyday.
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

 

[JLB]

Right, by being "immersed" into Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)

That is what you have been taught, and that is your "mindset" which won't allow you to see and believe what the scriptures teach.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

It's by the Spirit, not by water baptism.

It's a daily walk, a daily lifestyle not a one time thing at water baptism.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" !

Why?

What's wrong with your flesh if it's sinless?

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is what you have been taught, and that is your "mindset" which won't allow you to see and believe what the scriptures teach.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

It's by the Spirit, not by water baptism.

It's a daily walk, a daily lifestyle not a one time thing at water baptism

When and where does the Spirit do that amazing thing ?
He does that at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)
From whence we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Start your daily walks from a clean and sanctified point.
That point, is your rebirth from God's seed.