Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[SuperKal]

Welcome to the site.
Is there really a difference between perfectly obedient and perfectly sinless ?

The condition of the vessel has no bearing on sinlessness or obedience.
How can it ?

i never used the phrase "perfect obedience". i said "continual obedience". there's a difference.
i would say it does have a bearing, because one is marked with the consequence of the first sin, and the other is pure and incorrupt... that's a pretty big deal.

God won't put His Spirit in an old, sin nature filled, vessel

100% agreed. thats why upon repentance and faith our vessels are washed clean.
but it is up to us to keep our vessels clean.

however, there's more to human beings than just being symbolically referred to as a wineskin

what we're really talking about, though, is sanctification... sanctification is a lifelong process, and it's never completed until we endure to the end. we can always resist God's command for us to be sanctified to Him- even though i would never recommend that- but even with resistance, there is always the way of redemption and reconciliation.

we will always have the choice to do either good or evil, and God always encourages us to do good and resist temptation

 

[RandyK]

what we're really talking about, though, is sanctification... sanctification is a lifelong process, and it's never completed until we endure to the end.

Yes, we're talking about "continual obedience," or "living a sanctified life." To me, "Sanctification" refers to someone dedicating something to God. To sanctify someone we would dedicate someone to the Lord. Or, we could sanctify our home or property to the Lord, and it would then be "sanctified," or "dedicated."

When we become believers, we choose not just to be partly dedicated, but entirely dedicated. We do not become "perfect," but the term, "be perfect" in the Bible meant to do something "properly." It was not to do "half a job," or to just "appear to be doing the job." Rather, to do a job "perfectly" would be to actually get the job done properly.

That is the "be perfect" the Bible is talking about--not Sinless Perfection. It is a call to be Born Again, to be completely dedicated to the cause of Christ, regularly dying to the Old Man, and living only by the New Man created in Christ by grace.

Thank you!

 

[Hopeful 2]

When there is a fire outside, after some months you may have new growth as well as some old growth. After the "fire" of sin entered into our bodies, we can get Born Again and have some new growth, even as we live in our old bodies and continue to have "old growth."

Using man's philosophy to accommodate sin in an effort to refute God's word, is a useless endeavor.
Those reborn of God's seed, cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

Yes, we need to be Born Again. But we continue to live in our old bodies. Those old bodies do indeed continue to get old, wrinkle, and burst/die.

That would be of concern, I guess, if we were going to be judged on wrinkles and age.
But we aren't.
We will be judged on what we do and don't do.

If God doesn't put His Spirit in our old bodies, we won't get saved. We don't receive Salvation only after our resurrection into new bodies. We get saved now, while we are still living in our old bodies.

God put His Spirit in a new creature, when I received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8.11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

The mortal body is just a carrying case for what is inside.

You have to get the metaphor right. We don't get the Spirit unless we get Born Again. But we get Born Again while we are still living in our old bodies.

I am a new creature.
Besides, skin and bones can't commit sin.
The mind controls what happens.

Until we are resurrected into new immortal bodies, we will continue to have the effects of the Sin Nature.

Scripture, please.
I prefer to believe what Peter says in 2 Peter 1:4..."Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

We have a compulsion to do wrong, but we can indeed overcome those impulses by directing our mind and heart to God's Word.

You are describing the nature of the unregenerated.

When we're Born Again, we have a New Nature that we can draw upon.

OK, now we are getting somewhere.

Unborn Again people can do right. But when we're Born Again, we have a nature that is replete with a New Character that we can claim as our own.

Alright.
Why did the first part of this post seem to deny that ?

We don't just do right because we can. We do right because we've chosen to adopt that Nature and we adopt not just right behaviors but a character that finds it in character to do that kind of thing.

We do right because we can.
We abstain from evil because we can.

 

[Hopeful 2]

i never used the phrase "perfect obedience". i said "continual obedience". there's a difference.

Describe the difference.

i would say it does have a bearing, because one is marked with the consequence of the first sin, and the other is pure and incorrupt... that's a pretty big deal.

What consequences do you refer to ?
Besides, the reborn are new creatures !

100% agreed. thats why upon repentance and faith our vessels are washed clean.
but it is up to us to keep our vessels clean.

Yes.

however, there's more to human beings than just being symbolically referred to as a wineskin

For the purpose of Jesus' parable, it is perfectly apt.

what we're really talking about, though, is sanctification... sanctification is a lifelong process,

I disagree.
The sanctifying, atoning, consecrating, justifying blood of Christ was applied at by baptism into His death and burial.
It took about three minutes.

and it's never completed until we endure to the end.

Only glorification is withheld until the end.

we can always resist God's command for us to be sanctified to Him- even though i would never recommend that- but even with resistance, there is always the way of redemption and reconciliation.

Why not skip the waffling, and 'get right' now ?

we will always have the choice to do either good or evil, and God always encourages us to do good and resist temptation

The choice is always before us.
But if one is actually reborn of God's seed, he will never bring forth the devil's fruit.

 

[RandyK]

Using man's philosophy to accommodate sin in an effort to refute God's word, is a useless endeavor.
Those reborn of God's seed, cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

Sure they can. Jesus rebuked Satan when Peter opposed his going to the cross.

When John said that someone with the reborn nature "cannot sin" you are misreading his language. He is not saying they definitively cannot sin, but rather, that when properly centered in Christ will not want to sin.

That would be of concern, I guess, if we were going to be judged on wrinkles and age.
But we aren't.
We will be judged on what we do and don't do.

You've missed the point. We live in old bodies and do show not just the physical effects of aging, but also the Sin Nature that indwells in us. It does not have to control us, but it does persist in tainting our attitudes and deeds to some degree. It may win a few battles, but it does not have to win the war.

God put His Spirit in a new creature, when I received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The mortal body is just a carrying case for what is inside.

I am a new creature.
Besides, skin and bones can't commit sin.
The mind controls what happens.

The point, when saying that Sin is in the body is that Sin affects the mind and spirit, as well, because Sin is a spiritual disease and affects every part of us.

Scripture, please.

It's so ubiquitous that it's assumed that everybody knows this by experience. To deny this is to be delusional. Paul admitted he had not "arrived." He admitted that sin was in him fighting against his desire to do right (the New Nature).

The Prophets made mistakes. Christians called upon their Savior even after becoming Christians because they still need forgiveness. Why else would Paul write all of his letters, admonishing, rebuking, encouraging unless people tended to wander?

I prefer to believe what Peter says in 2 Peter 1:4..."Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Much that is said about righteousness and sin are general statements--not absolute. We are generally called to righteousness, without expectation of perfection. We are told not to be sinless, but to generally walk in righteousness, overcoming sin. Overcomers are blessed in the perseverance in living in righteousness--not in their perfection.

You are describing the nature of the unregenerated.

No, the regenerate are also flawed, though the unregenerated walk in sin as a lifestyle, going their own way, doing their own thing, and avoiding their conscience. The regenerate walk with Christ, but experience compulsions that are not so Christian and must overcome them.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sure they can. Jesus rebuked Satan when Peter opposed his going to the cross.

Peter hadn't even been converted yet.
Until Jesus was killed and raised from the dead, no man could walk in the Spirit.
Peter was still walking in and after the "flesh".

When John said that someone with the reborn nature "cannot sin" you are misreading his language. He is not saying they definitively cannot sin, but rather, that when properly centered in Christ will not want to sin.

I disagree, especially after John adds..."for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Can an apple tree bring forth grapes ?
Neither can God's seed bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

You've missed the point. We live in old bodies and do show not just the physical effects of aging, but also the Sin Nature that indwells in us. It does not have to control us, but it does persist in tainting our attitudes and deeds to some degree. It may win a few battles, but it does not have to win the war.

There is no sin nature in those reborn of God.
The condition of the 'package' has no bearing on our eventual judgement...(unless one is damaging it on purpose.)

The point, when saying that Sin is in the body is that Sin affects the mind and spirit, as well, because Sin is a spiritual disease and affects every part of us.

Even more of a reason to, as Peter said in 1 Peter 4:1..."cease from sin".

It's so ubiquitous that it's assumed that everybody knows this by experience. To deny this is to be delusional. Paul admitted he had not "arrived." He admitted that sin was in him fighting against his desire to do right (the New Nature).

The only thing Paul awaited in Phil. 3, was his glorified body.
But the old body can't commit sin anyhow.
The mind runs the show.

The Prophets made mistakes.

If they made mistakes in their prophesies, they were not of God.

Christians called upon their Savior even after becoming Christians because they still need forgiveness.

That is an error, unless you are calling the unregenerated "Christians".

Why else would Paul write all of his letters, admonishing, rebuking, encouraging unless people tended to wander?

To keep people on their toes !
How often is too often to hear..."Look both ways before crossing the street !" ?

Much that is said about righteousness and sin are general statements--not absolute. We are generally called to righteousness, without expectation of perfection.

Only the unconverted would expect their converts to emulate themselves, instead of "walk as Jesus walked". (1 John 2:3-6)

We are told not to be sinless,

I really disagree.

but to generally walk in righteousness, overcoming sin. Overcomers are blessed in the determination to live in righteousness--not in their perfection.

You are celebrating failure to overcome.
If man can't overcome, what is the point of 'getting better' ?

No, the regenerate are also flawed, though the unregenerated walk in sin as a lifestyle, going their own way, doing their own thing, and avoiding their conscience. The regenerate walk with Christ, but experience compulsions that are not so Christian and must overcome them.

I could never call God's children 'flawed'.
You are a braver man than I.
The 'compulsions' you site are covered by 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
The God promised escapes are there !

 

[SuperKal]

Describe the difference.

The term perfect implies the inability to do something... do you have the inability to descend? You do, you're the first human being on face of the planet I know that has it... Of course, that's my own opinion. No one is currently perfect. Strive to be perfect but our end goal is to be perfect, but like I said before, that doesn't happen until the first resurrection

What consequences do you refer to ?

The consequence of Adam's sin, death, has been given unto all men... the current body we have, still has a fallen nature. Is not incorruptible, it is not perfected, it is not immortal... Unless you think you are immortal currently... If you do think that, you have problems

Besides, the reborn are new creatures !

RandyK has already addressed this in post #300

Bible Study - The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

Romans 3:26-31 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that...

christianforums.net

For the purpose of Jesus' parable, it is perfectly apt.

so you're a wineskin, not a human being... gotcha ;)

I disagree.
The sanctifying, atoning, consecrating, justifying blood of Christ was applied at by baptism into His death and burial.

It took about three minutes.
Why not skip the waffling, and 'get right' now ?
But if one is actually reborn of God's seed, he will never bring forth the devil's fruit.

Ohh look everyone, it's Jesus Christ, he's posting under the username hopeful 2, now, because this individual says he's now perfect, has now attained at the inability to sin...

Proverbs 24 16 explicitly tells us that a righteous man can fall... he can even Paul fall 7 times, and yet get up in 8th time, which implies the ability for the righteous man to choose between good and evil, and if the righteous man has a choice to choose between good and evil, then that does not mean he has an inability to sin. He must choose to not give in the temptation, but if the righteous men does, that's why the proverb says gets up an 8th time, he must repent, and pick up where his walk with Christ left off.

There is no one here on Earth that can claim that ever since they became a Christian, they have never sinned again, or that they have attained some mental / physical / spiritual inability to ever sin again... that, in my opinion, is heresy.

even the early church didn't teach that.
They stressed holiness and righteousness, and walking in good works that have been prepared for us beforehand, but they never taught that a person could be wholly perfect, and unable to sin Like I quoted before, Leonard Ravenhill didn't even teach that.

 

[RandyK]

Peter hadn't even been converted yet.

Sure he had. Had accepted Jesus as the Messiah and confessed him as such. Jesus viewed most of his Apostles as "clean." John 13.10

Those who walked faithfully under the Law and who accepted Jesus when he showed up were indeed "converted" in the true meaning of that term. The Apostles left their old life and followed Christ. Though they had not yet obtained Eternal Life, they were converted and were on their way.

I'm sorry you think you have to remain perfect to be truly "converted!"

Until Jesus was killed and raised from the dead, no man could walk in the Spirit.
Peter was still walking in and after the "flesh".

That's pure baloney.

I disagree, especially after John adds..."for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Can an apple tree bring forth grapes ?
Neither can God's seed bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

As I said earlier, these are general statements. When you choose to live a life of righteousness, that need not require "perfection."

It is the general characterization of a righteous Christian that he be "faithful." Though a spouse may be faithful to you, he or she need not be "perfect."

There is no sin nature in those reborn of God.

John in 1 John 1 completely opposes your belief here. Since you don't believe explicit Scripture there is no sense discussing it further with you.

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The term perfect implies the inability to do something

Why ?
Continual obedience is the ability to remain faithful.
It is the same as perfect obedience.
Faithfulness !

... do you have the inability to descend?

?

You do, you're the first human being on face of the planet I know that has it... Of course, that's my own opinion. No one is currently perfect. Strive to be perfect but our end goal is to be perfect, but like I said before, that doesn't happen until the first resurrection

Why strive for something you find impossible ?
That is a set-up for failure.

The consequence of Adam's sin, death, has been given unto all men... the current body we have, still has a fallen nature. Is not incorruptible, it is not perfected, it is not immortal... Unless you think you are immortal currently... If you do think that, you have problems

When I was reborn, I became a new creature.
Adam's genetics, deeds, or nature, have no effect on me.
I am a child of God's seed.

RandyK has already addressed this in post #300

Bible Study - The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

Romans 3:26-31 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that...

christianforums.net

so you're a wineskin, not a human being... gotcha ;)

Parable, parable, parable.
In that parable, all who have received the Spirit-wine are the vessel of the wine-Spirit.
God won't put His Spirit in old vessels.
We must be reborn/new creatures first.

Ohh look everyone, it's Jesus Christ, he's posting under the username hopeful 2, now, because this individual says he's now perfect, has now attained at the inability to sin...

The ability is there, but I have been equipt to resist the temptations.

Proverbs 24 16 explicitly tells us that a righteous man can fall... he can even Paul fall 7 times, and yet get up in 8th time, which implies the ability for the righteous man to choose between good and evil, and if the righteous man has a choice to choose between good and evil, then that does not mean he has an inability to sin. He must choose to not give in the temptation, but if the righteous men does, that's why the proverb says gets up an 8th time, he must repent, and pick up where his walk with Christ left off.

Some things of the OT were meant only for the OT.
And again, I never mentioned an inability to sin.
Just the ability to resist sinning.

There is no one here on Earth that can claim that ever since they became a Christian, they have never sinned again, or that they have attained some mental / physical / spiritual inability to ever sin again... that, in my opinion, is heresy.

So nobody know God ?
John wrote..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

even the early church didn't teach that.

I disagree.

They stressed holiness and righteousness, and walking in good works that have been prepared for us beforehand, but they never taught that a person could be wholly perfect, and unable to sin Like I quoted before, Leonard Ravenhill didn't even teach that.

I don't teach an inability to sin either.
But I also don't teach an inability to remain faithful.
If Ravenhill teaches we cannot remain faithful, I want nothing at all to do with him.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sure he had. Had accepted Jesus as the Messiah and confessed him as such. Jesus viewed most of his Apostles as "clean." John 13.10

He wasn't yet converted, (Luke 22:32), and he still walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.

Those who walked faithfully under the Law and who accepted Jesus when he showed up were indeed "converted" in the true meaning of that term. The Apostles left their old life and followed Christ. Though they had not yet obtained Eternal Life, they were converted and were on their way.

They wouldn't receive the Holy Ghost for some time after Peter named Jesus as the Son of God.

I'm sorry you think you have to remain perfect to be truly "converted!"

Sorry ?
I am the one who is sorry for all who have bene hoodwinked into believing there is a good future for those continuing in disobedience.

That's pure baloney.

Not at all.
Until a man could be crucified with Christ, (Rom 6:3-4), and destroy the old man, (Rom 6:6), he was limited to walking in the flesh.

As I said earlier, these are general statements. When you choose to live a life of righteousness, that need not require "perfection."

So unrighteousness is included in your version of righteousness ?

It is the general characterization of a righteous Christian that he be "faithful." Though a spouse may be faithful to you, he or she need not be "perfect."

That isn't much of a spouse.
Adultery is one of the sins the regenerated abstain from, BTW.

John in 1 John 1 completely opposes your belief here. Since you don't believe explicit Scripture there is no sense discussing it further with you.

It is those who walk in darkness/sin who cannot say they have no sin.
God has made it possible for all of us to now walk in the light, in Whom is no sin.

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[SuperKal]

I'm sorry, I'm using speech to text, and sometimes it doesn't pick up exactly what I say. I'd rather not use speech to text, but I'm currently disabled, and this is the quickest way I can make a response.

I get that it's a parable, but you can't sit here and say We're just wineskins, because we're not wineskins, we are human beings, with the ability to choose between good and evil. Wine skins are not living breathing creatures.

I also never said that We can't help but sin you'll never hear me say that because I'm never going to say that... we have the ability to not commit sin, but we do not have the inability to sin.

Really?
The early church taught that a person could be completely 100% sinless???
REALLY?

Christ alone is sinless. However, as far as we are able, let us try to sin as little as possible.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.

Christ welcomes the repentance of the sinner, for He loves the repentance that follows sins. For this Word of whom we speak alone is sinless. For to sin is natural and common to all. But to return [to God] after sinning is characteristic not of any man, but only of a man of worth.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.293

To the Son of God alone was it reserved to persevere to the end without sin.
Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.244

The Lord knew Himself to be the only guiltless One, and so He teaches us to beg “to have our debts remitted us.”
Tertullian (c. 198, W), 3.684

No one can boast of being so free from sin as not even to have an evil thought.
Methodius (c. 290, E), 6.365

No one can be without defect as long as he is burdened with a covering of flesh. For the infirmity of the flesh is subject to the dominion of sin in a threefold manner: in deeds, words, and thoughts.
Lactantius (c. 304–313, W), 7.178.

No one can be so prudent and so cautious as not at sometime to slip.
Lactantius (c. 304–313, W), 7.191.

And I never once said or implied that we as Christians have the inability to remain faithful. Shame on you for accusing me of saying that. We have the ability to remain faithful, but we also have the ability to not remain faithful, that's the entire point behind free will. When we become Christians, the ability to be unfaithful does not magically disappear, unfortunately... I wish it did, though

 

[RandyK]

He wasn't yet converted, (Luke 22:32), and he still walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.

You are misreading Luke 22.31-32...
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Peter had already left his career to follow Jesus. That was "conversion," if you will. Peter, however, was flawed, and made a number of errors. Every time he erred he had to "turn back." That was not religious conversion--that is simply repentance, and turning away from error.

You are making a colossal error in thinking Jesus was calling and using ministers who were supposedly "unconverted." Jesus would never be such a fool, although for a reason he also assigned Judas, a "devil," to the same task. It was to use him for a nefarious purpose, to betray him.

Peter denied Jesus, but did not betray him. Peter always repented. Judas was remorseful, but never truly repentant. Peter and the 12 were all young, and capable of making lots of errors. But they followed Jesus. As such, they had converted from their old way of living and had chosen to follow Jesus. That is "religious conversion."

They wouldn't receive the Holy Ghost for some time after Peter named Jesus as the Son of God.

They already had the Spirit operating in their lives because they were commissioned by Jesus to work miracles in Jesus' name. Do you think they did so without the power of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus could endow his apostles with the Holy Spirit on any occasion to accomplish certain tasks. It was on the Day of Pentecost that the Spirit came to complete the testimony of Jesus' Salvation. But many saints lived for Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, prior to that, the apostles included.

So unrighteousness is included in your version of righteousness ?

I've already explained to you the difference between a life of faithful service to the Lord or not. In the case of a faithful life, one can do so with a Sin Nature, with flaws in his life, and with a determination to overcome the compulsion to sin.

A person who is unfaithful to God lives *in sin.* That is the difference.

When we say that a person chooses to not live "in sin" they are choosing to regularly overcome sinful tendencies. They do not have to be perfect to do this!

It is those who walk in darkness/sin who cannot say they have no sin.
God has made it possible for all of us to now walk in the light, in Whom is no sin.

I've already shown you where the Apostle John condemns any sense that we can be sinless. But you apparently reject the Bible or choose to explain it away?

 

[Humblepie]

Some things of the OT were meant only for the OT.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


This was written before the NT was written, so either you are wrong or scripture is wrong.

 

[SuperKal]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


This was written before the NT was written, so either you are wrong or scripture is wrong.

Are you saying that we still need to follow all 611 Levitical laws that were given to Israel?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are misreading Luke 22.31-32...
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

My bible says "converted".
If it did mean "turn back" it would be "repent".
Either way, Peter was still walking in the flesh.
Walking in the Spirit wouldn't be available until the day of Pentecost.

Peter had already left his career to follow Jesus. That was "conversion," if you will. Peter, however, was flawed, and made a number of errors. Every time he erred he had to "turn back." That was not religious conversion--that is simply repentance, and turning away from error.

That was the norm for the Jews, but not for those reborn of God's seed.

You are making a colossal error in thinking Jesus was calling and using ministers who were supposedly "unconverted." Jesus would never be such a fool, although for a reason he also assigned Judas, a "devil," to the same task. It was to use him for a nefarious purpose, to betray him.

Jesus had no choice but to use those God gave Him.
Peter would keep on sinning until the day of Pentecost, when he received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter denied Jesus, but did not betray him. Peter always repented. Judas was remorseful, but never truly repentant. Peter and the 12 were all young, and capable of making lots of errors. But they followed Jesus. As such, they had converted from their old way of living and had chosen to follow Jesus. That is "religious conversion."

Age has no effect on serving one master.
Jesus said man could only serve one. (Matt 6:24)
Sinners serve sin. (John 8:34)

They already had the Spirit operating in their lives because they were commissioned by Jesus to work miracles in Jesus' name. Do you think they did so without the power of the Holy Spirit

Show where they were vested with the Holy Spirit before the day of Pentecost.
The Spirit may have been working in their lives, but they had yet to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus could endow his apostles with the Holy Spirit on any occasion to accomplish certain tasks.

Show where Jesus said He would do that.

It was on the Day of Pentecost that the Spirit came to complete the testimony of Jesus' Salvation. But many saints lived for Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, prior to that, the apostles included.

Until Jesus was raised from the dead, all men walked in and after the flesh.

I've already explained to you the difference between a life of faithful service to the Lord or not.

Isn't a life of faithful service a perfectly sinless life ?

In the case of a faithful life, one can do so with a Sin Nature, with flaws in his life, and with a determination to overcome the compulsion to sin.

I disagree.
A faithful life entails a true repentance from sin.
It is the unfaithful that serves sin.

A person who is unfaithful to God lives *in sin.* That is the difference.

The unrepentant lives in sin.

When we say that a person chooses to not live "in sin" they are choosing to regularly overcome sinful tendencies. They do not have to be perfect to do this!

That is called accommodations for sin, and the idea is not of God.

I've already shown you where the Apostle John condemns any sense that we can be sinless.

No, you tried making a verse addressing those who walk in darkness to also apply to those who walk in the light.

But you apparently reject the Bible or choose to explain it away?

Verses that apply to sinners, don't apply to those who walk in God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


This was written before the NT was written, so either you are wrong or scripture is wrong.

That is the NT.
Do the things written about circumcision apply to us of the NT ?
How about dietary rules ?
Mixing wool and linen ?
What about the priesthood, and their garments ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm sorry, I'm using speech to text, and sometimes it doesn't pick up exactly what I say. I'd rather not use speech to text, but I'm currently disabled, and this is the quickest way I can make a response.

If you don't use the "Reply" button we won't know to whom you are addressing.
I hope your malady is very short term.

I get that it's a parable, but you can't sit here and say We're just wineskins, because we're not wineskins, we are human beings, with the ability to choose between good and evil. Wine skins are not living breathing creatures.

In the parable, the wineskin represents a man.
The wine represents the Holy Ghost.

I also never said that We can't help but sin you'll never hear me say that because I'm never going to say that... we have the ability to not commit sin, but we do not have the inability to sin.

Read 1 John 3:9, and you will see that "seed" can not bring forth any other "seed's" fruit.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, or murderers.

Really?
The early church taught that a person could be completely 100% sinless???
REALLY?

Yes.
I have a list of about thirty verses attesting to it, and I will include two here...
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

Christ alone is sinless. However, as far as we are able, let us try to sin as little as possible.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.

Were you baptized into Christ ? (Rom 6:3)
How can you be "in Christ" but still commit sin ?

Christ welcomes the repentance of the sinner, for He loves the repentance that follows sins.

Two repentances mean the first one was a lie to God.
Forty repentances mean thirty-nine were lies to God.
When will the real, true, repentance from sin occur ?

For this Word of whom we speak alone is sinless.

He was the first, and He is our example. (1 John 2:3-6)

For to sin is natural and common to all. But to return [to God] after sinning is characteristic not of any man, but only of a man of worth.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.293

You are citing an accommodator of sin.
Beware of such efforts to divert men from the truth.

To the Son of God alone was it reserved to persevere to the end without sin.
Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.244

So much for the necessity of rebirth.

The Lord knew Himself to be the only guiltless One, and so He teaches us to beg “to have our debts remitted us.”
Tertullian (c. 198, W), 3.684

More accommodations...

No one can boast of being so free from sin as not even to have an evil thought.
Methodius (c. 290, E), 6.365

Boasting in the deeds of God is pointless.
Rejoicing in them though, is a different matter.
Jesus made a way to live in accordance to God's commands.
All may partake in that way.

No one can be without defect as long as he is burdened with a covering of flesh. For the infirmity of the flesh is subject to the dominion of sin in a threefold manner: in deeds, words, and thoughts.
Lactantius (c. 304–313, W), 7.178.
No one can be so prudent and so cautious as not at sometime to slip.
Lactantius (c. 304–313, W), 7.191.

We call accommodators of sin "false prophets".

And I never once said or implied that we as Christians have the inability to remain faithful.

All your references just did, at your behest !

Shame on you for accusing me of saying that. We have the ability to remain faithful, but we also have the ability to not remain faithful, that's the entire point behind free will. When we become Christians, the ability to be unfaithful does not magically disappear, unfortunately... I wish it did, though

Yes, it does disappear.
New creatures, walking in the Spirit, reborn of God's seed, don't make their repentances from sin a lie.

 

[SuperKal]

It's impossible to have a conversation with a person who acts like he's Jesus Christ in the flesh.
And hopeful 2, don't bother replying to me, you are on my ignore list, and I've gotten to the point where I'll really don't care what you have to say... you think people can become sinless...
and nobody, absolutely nobody, can make that claim.

Only one person in all of creation can make that claim, and His name is Jesus Christ
None of us are exactly like Jesus.

I, for one, will never make that claim about myself, because I know I'm far from perfect... I, Just like every other Christian on the face of this planet Earth right now, am a work in progress...

and yes, I will fail- I hate failing , I hate myself when I fail , I punish myself when I fail, I do everything I can to not fail- but there will be days where I do... and, like I said from the very beginning, the writer of proverbs says that a righteous man gets back up.

And that's the most important part of proverbs 24 16... it does not say that the righteous man will never fail again, it says that the righteous man will still fall, but have Willingness to get back up, and start again. The wicked man does not have the willingness to get back up. Remain on the ground, wallowing in their sin, remaining a slave to sin.

I quoted the early church because the early church gives us glimpses into the kind of Christian lifestyle that early Christians lived out and believed... none of them taught that we could be completely 100% sinless. Absolutely none of them taught this. What they did teach is that Jesus alone was sinless, and that we need to imitate Him.
That's not making an accommodation for sin, that's understanding the reality of humanity.

in our fallen state, sin is still a choice, not an inevitability, and we must choose between right and wrong, good and evil, sin and righteousness

 

[Humblepie]

Are you saying that we still need to follow all 611 Levitical laws that were given to Israel?

I'm saying that All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, including everything in the Torah, just as it is written. ALL SCRIPTURE.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm saying that All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, including everything in the Torah, just as it is written. ALL SCRIPTURE.

I agree.
But some of it was a portent of the future, and has been fulfilled.