Those who want to maintain a sinful life-style will probably agree with you.
But those who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, will rejoice that there is a way to adhere to the teachings of God.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.
- Thread starter Tenchi
- Start date
But those who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, will rejoice that there is a way to adhere to the teachings of God.
Ever read Matt 7:22-23 ?
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Lol yeah, notice how Hopeful had barely anything to say afterward! He put up a weak defense of his teaching. And asserted "all sin = intentional" which is evidently false.
False. That belief you have may explain plenty of your assumptions and other beliefs.
Numbers 15:27-31 shreds your claim to bits.
by the logic you use for "Sin no more" you must also apply this logic, and accept the existence of unintentional sin.
Is a 5 year old in a nonChristian family aware that by lying, they are rebelling against God?
That is about temptation. Nothing about willful or not.
***Agree with you.
Because lying is a sin. Ironically, your teaching involves self deception like tenchi pointed out.
Sounds like the "perfect humans" doctrine.
John taught repent and believe in the one who came after him. Of Jesus, John said ( he it is who will baptise in the HolySpirit and fire).
IMHO Repentance is the confession of sins. Sins against God the Father ( there is on who is good).
What must we do to be saved?
( repent and believe on Jesus for the remission of sins).
(There is one name under heaven whereby we may be saved): Jesus.
When people Repented they cried out (what must we do to be saved?)
Can I miss a point? Yes.
The great commission
One baptism ( 3 aspects of the Godhead):
Father - Repentance
Son - eternal life / salvation
Holy Spirit - power to be a witness
Teaching all things Jesus commanded
Not just a ceremony, but immersed in all the Godhead
Then what could a Mississippi redneck understand?
eddif
Tell us what sin is unintentional.
Remember, it must have the components listed by James in order to be a sin.
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:..." (James 1:14-15)
Can there be a sin without a temptation first ?
Without lust ?
Without enticement ?
Without conception ?
No.
As my posts are about living free from sin, I don't agree with your response.
Tenchi took one verse directed at those in sin (1 John 1:8), and misapplied it to those who walk in light-God.
More like the obedient sons of God doctrine.
Paul call it the doctrine which is according to godliness, in 1 Tim 6:3.
Let me ask you a question...
Are men's sins really washed away at their baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ? (Acts 2:38)
If your answer is no, then Peter lied to us.
But if your answer is yes, then why can't the just baptized man say he has no sin ?
From that point going forward, if his repentance from sin is true, he can keep on saying he has no sin until his vessel fades away.
Yes, (John the Baptist).
I can't agree.
What would be the point of admitting a sin if you don't "turn from" it ?
Jesus was good, and He is our example.
John, the apostle, wrote..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)
You got that backwards, according to Acts 2:37-38..."
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
I don't know.
But not the power to resist temptations ?
He taught obedience to God.
Is there sin in the Godhead ?
Are there sinners in the Godhead ?
Only the truly repentant (of sin) and washed (by the blood of Christ) are in the Godhead.
Theft, for example.
Or any other sin committed without the awareness of the Biblical God's existence.
Sure, the theif intends to steal, but is he aware that he is doing sin against the Biblical God? Probably not.
Nothing about intent.
And, even if it did, how do you know this happens EVERY time someone sins? Right, you don't.
Before you became Christian, were you aware that lying, stealing, etc. were sins against God?
That claim assumes sinless perfection.
Flawed claim. The Gospel is the doctrine according to Godliness. That verse in Timothy, in context, has nothing to do with "perfect humans".
My answer is yes.
All present and past sins.
But they might UNintentionally sin in the FUTURE, along the way, like Tenchi is saying.
This is a great point against "perfect humans" teaching.
Jesus said that :
Mark 10:18
" But Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. "
So if "perfect humans" was true, why is nobody sinlessly perfect according to Jesus?
Proverbs 24:16 rips another hole in your teaching.
So do tell me how your belief can debunk any part of Proverbs.
There's nothing here about the saint NOT occasionally slipping up.
If there was, you might have a better case.
Wait a minute, you are claiming that we need to do a work called baptism to be saved? Incorrect.
So you probably believe in works salvation. That would explain much.
FAITH through GRACE. NO works.
We'll only be never-sinning in Heaven, not on earth.
And besides, you only address BITS and PIECES of Tenchi's three long posts. Makes your side seem weaker.
This is going to take some time.
2 Chronicles 7:14 kjv
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
I think I have been where you are. I used to quote this scripture and give it too mich value. If you notice salvation from sin is not the outcome. Healing the sin in the land under the law is the outcome. The next verses show the result is not permanent. We are just discussing and trying to get to truth. Elihu thought he was in charge of truth. I am not in charge of truth of myself. If I get to truth I probably had to be helped to get there.
IMHO Repentance leaves you with a need: how do I get forgiveness for the sins I just admitted to.
More later if you wish
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Tenchi
MemberOne other thing about the churches in Revelation 2-3 that were criticized by the Holy Spirit and warned that their "lampstand would be put out" is that saints in the various churches were living in a way that deserved sharp criticism and a dire warning - they were guilty of sin - but had not yet been "put out." Their "lampstands" were still "in" though they were guilty of some pretty serious and willful disobedience toward God. But this is impossible on the sinless perfection view. No community of saints, according to the sinless perfection perspective, could be deserving of such criticism and warning and be a community of true believers. But this isn't what the Spirit indicated in his comments to the five churches he criticized and warned. No, he clearly indicated they were still "in" as congregations of born-again people - churches of God - though they'd lost their first love, or were lukewarm, or were religiously active but spiritual asleep, and so on. This fact obviously confounds the sinless perfection error.
Tenchi
Member
Repentance gives rise to confession, but repentance and confession are two different things.
Bible Study - Repentance.
Matthew 3:8 8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. It's been my observation that the matter of repentance can become a murky thing, a mixture of conviction of sin, guiltiness, some crocodile tears, confession of sin, restitution at times, vows to forsake sin, recommitment to Christ, and so...christianforums.net
Without a temptation it isn't a sin.
Your "intention" made it a sin.
Do you know what lust is ?
Just wanting someone else's stuff is coveting, but taking it is done intentionally.
Yes, as I was born with a conscience.
Correct, as there is no sin in God, who is the light we should be walking in (1 John 1:7)
The gospel is "good news".
I see no doctrine in it whatsoever.
Then why couldn't you say you had no sin ?
All sins are intentional, as they all require lust and enticement that must be either resisted or not resisted.
What does John write in 1 John 2:3-6 ?..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
John says those who know Him should be walking as He walked.
He does not say it is impossible.
Wasn't He good though ?
Jesus spoke those words before there was an ability to be crucified with Him, or be reborn of God's seed.
Things have changed since the OT.
I won't debunk what was true at the time it was written.
Nobody was walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh yet.
That couldn't happen until the resurrection of Christ.
Those you kindly label as "slippers", are not walking as Jesus walked.
They are walking in darkness.
Absolutely, though it isn't a work of the Law that Paul wrote against.
Nope, circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, mixed garment materials, etc., have nothing to do with NT salvation.
I have faith that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins washed away my past sin.
I have faith that a true, real repentance from sin makes a man a non-sinner.
I have faith that adherence to Peter's Act 2:38 words will garner the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Why then, would Jesus warn us with..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:..." (Matt 7:22-24)
He seems to put the onus on our time on earth to put things right with Him.
Thanks be to God.
What did I miss ?
There is no power in "many words".
Why can't he get to the point ?
If perfect obedience to God is a lie, where is his proof ?
And if they didn't "turn from" their wicked ways...what would happen to them ?
God makes the same plea to us of the NT.
By following Peter's commands in Acts 2:38, men get both repentance from sin and remission of sins.
And, the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost !
Absolutely two different things.
1. Repentance
2. Salvation in Christ Jesus
3. Receive power to be a witness
Mississippi redneck
eddif
The 2 Chronicles 7:114 - 19 is about the physical going sour.
The NT is about eternal life being lost.
But
They are parallel thoughts / conceps.
The seed is the Word of God
Mississippi redneck
eddifLast edited:
It took 30? Years for me to see / understand that a concept / parable covers many context areas.
Seed is about plants, but the DNA of the plant is a book of sorts.
The Bible is book (paper / digital / audio / video / persons life / more examples).
The spiritual is Jesus who casts the shadow .
Types and shadows are contained in parables. Jesus used parables to conceal (Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke etc.).
The prophets longed to understand what they said.
The Apostles explaned (after Pentecost) what the Old Testament was saying.
Example: the two women were two covenants. Those who want to know will look up the passage.
I do realize how strange I sound to some people. I am limited in my ability to explain. We all will understand each other at the last trump.
Mississippi redneck
eddif