Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[eddif]

And if they didn't "turn from" their wicked ways...what would happen to them ?
God makes the same plea to us of the NT.

By following Peter's commands in Acts 2:38, men get both repentance from sin and remission of sins.
And, the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost !

Acts 2 is dealing with the descendants of the Ezekiel dispersion 400 years previous. Those Ezekiel people grieved over the sins of Israel, a type of Repentance. Knowing why the people in Jerusalem at Pentecost were righteous (under the law) is necessary to understand Acts 2.

The Acts 2 crowd had gentiles converted to Jewish teligion also.

Having actually been living repentance teaching taught Repenntance for 400 years ( by their forefathers) they were prepared to accept Jesus when Peter preached Jesus.

Pentecost is not just about the folks speaking in tongues, but about the return of Jews from the nations,
This needs to be a coplex thread to make the title be addressed.

The last trump is where sinless perfection is completed. The previous history is needed. Jesus is our eternal righteousness.

Righteousness under the law is a subject also. Both should not be mushed together on the threshing floor by a single hoof horse, but an ox with a split hoof should seperate the chaff from the inner truth. The seed coat must be seperated.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

The 2 Chronicles 7:114 - 19 is about the physical going sour.

Your reference was unattainable.

The NT is about eternal life being lost.

It is also about eternal life being granted.

But
They are parallel thoughts / conceps.

Shadows, and the caster of shadows.
Presages, and fulfilments.

The seed is the Word of God

For sure.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Acts 2 is dealing with the descendants of the Ezekiel dispersion 400 years previous. Those Ezekiel people grieved over the sins of Israel, a type of Repentance. Knowing why the people in Jerusalem at Pentecost were righteous (under the law) is necessary to understand Acts 2.

The Acts 2 crowd had gentiles converted to Jewish teligion also.

Having actually been living repentance teaching taught Repenntance for 400 years ( by their forefathers) they were prepared to accept Jesus when Peter preached Jesus.

Pentecost is not just about the folks speaking in tongues, but about the return of Jews from the nations,
This needs to be a coplex thread to make the title be addressed.

The last trump is where sinless perfection is completed. The previous history is needed. Jesus is our eternal righteousness.

Righteousness under the law is a subject also. Both should not be mushed together on the threshing floor by a single hoof horse, but an ox with a split hoof should seperate the chaff from the inner truth. The seed coat must be seperated.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I see no need to complicate it.

 

[eddif]

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people……
eddif

 

[KV-44-v1]

Without a temptation it isn't a sin.

Technichally, because cause and effect.

Your "intention" made it a sin.

Intention to steal.
So you are actually supporting the fact that there is un intentional sin. Because the theif in the example does not know of God's existence or His commands.
Just because he doesn't know God forbids stealing does not mean God didn't forbid stealing.

Do you know what lust is ?
Just wanting someone else's stuff is coveting, but taking it is done intentionally.

Wow! You cite another unintentional sin! Some people just get the desire, without control. And many lusters don't believe in God.
You prove the existence of un intentional sin yet again. WOOPS!!

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:..."

Nothing about intent.

And, even if it did, how do you know this happens EVERY time someone sins? Right, you don't.

Before you became Christian, were you aware that lying, stealing, etc. were sins against God?

Yes, as I was born with a conscience.

Having a concsience does not mean you knew for fact that God existed.
You just FELT your way through what was right and wrong before you realized there was the Solid Standard for morals.
So before you were Christian, you sinned without intending to break God's Commands.

Correct, as there is no sin in God, who is the light we should be walking in (1 John 1:7)

So you have no EVIDENCE that that's referring to two different types of people, you just have a conclusion from a starting belief.

The gospel is "good news".
I see no doctrine in it whatsoever.

That depends on what you mean by the term "DOCTRINE".
What do you think it means?

Then why couldn't you say you had no sin ?

Had or have?

All sins are intentional,

Nope, refuted.

as they all require lust

That has to do with s**. That debunks your claim.

and enticement that must be either resisted or not resisted.

If the person is not aware they are breaking God's commands, the sin in not on purpose.

What does John write in 1 John 2:3-6 ?..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Yes, people who do not actively live a Godly life do not know God.
Nowhere does this mean that saints don't accidentally sin once in a while, like seeing a woman and then a random bad desire jumps into their brain.
The sinner will likely entertain the thought, but the saint will be quick to get it out.
Your "perfect humans" teaching would imply that nobody is a Born Again Christian. Even you are not saved, not "walking in the Light", if your teaching is true.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
John says those who know Him should be walking as He walked.

Nobody is good but God. Literally see what Jesus said. How does "perfect humans" stand up to that verse? Right, it CRUMBLES like any untrue teaching does under the Bible.

Notice the, "EVEN AS". So we should AIM to walk like Christ walked.
There is no gurantee that we can always avoid sin.

Can we go sinless for a long span of time? Yes.
For as long as we are saved and alive? Unlikely.

Your "perfect humans" doctrine seems to be a half truth.

Wasn't He good though ?

Yes. NOBODY is good but God alone. Jesus was and is and always will be God.

Jesus spoke those words

Which ones, besides the Words in the OT?

before there was an ability to be crucified with Him, or be reborn of God's seed.

How do you know that? How do you know WHEN Jesus spoke those words?
Pretty sure the romans crucified people some years before Jesus came to earth.

I won't debunk what was true at the time it was written.
Nobody was walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh yet.
That couldn't happen until the resurrection of Christ.

So are you saying that everyone before Jesus' time had their destiny stuck on "eternal torment" ??

Those you kindly label as "slippers", are not walking as Jesus walked.

No gurantee they would be forever able to keep that walk.
The saint will get likely get up from his slip up but the sinner will want to wallow in sin.

Besides, your position rests on the BELIEF that all sin is intentional.

So that means many non-Christians in third world countries never sin because they are unaware of God or His Commands.
Which is false, because your claim is incorrect.

Absolutely, though it isn't a work of the Law that Paul wrote against.

So humans save themselves by getting baptized??! What madness. God saves us. We do not do ANYTHING to save ourselves.
The notion that we can do actions to save ourselves is straight out of pagan religions.

OR

do you believe that God is baptizing us, not ourselves or other people?
When you are dunked, who or Who is doing the dunking?

Nope, circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, mixed garment materials, etc., have nothing to do with NT salvation.

I mean any works not just OT Israelite works.

I have faith that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins washed away my past sin.

Ok

I have faith that a true, real repentance from sin makes a man a non-sinner.

Guranteed to never sin ever? Or likelihood? Biblically, the latter. Vain hope, the former.

Why then, would Jesus warn us with..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

That verse refers to Christians being saved and doing great things, but later they willfully refused to follow God at some point.

Mabye God wanted some of them to move away from their family, but they prioitize family over God. Or mabye God wants some to quit a job and move, but they love a job more than God. These are examples, both of which almost certainly happened in the past.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, those who love things on earth more than God, especially those who are aware of Him and His laws, work iniquity.

So you have not proven "perfect humans", but in fact, contradicted it, as shown by your citing of "lust".

 

[KV-44-v1]

There is no power in "many words".

So you think the Bible has no power? The Bible has TONS of words in it.
A logical, evidence-based post will consist of many words.
You yourself just made a lengthy post addressing me. So i don't know if you believe that.

Seems like you don't have a strong defense for "perfect humans".

The Bible: 1 . Vain hope: 0

 

[KV-44-v1]

The spiritual is Jesus who casts the shadow .

??
What does this mean?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Why can't he get to the point ?

Skimming his posts does not mean he "didnt get to the point".

skimming can mean "Reading or glancing through quickly."

If perfect obedience to God is a lie, where is his proof ?

By this, you obviously mean "perfect humans teaching".

It could be a lie or simply error, depending if the person is aware "" is false or not.

The proof "perfect humans" is in error is found in his posts. and in mind, and in the Bible....

 

[eddif]

Is there sin in the Godhead ?
Are there sinners in the Godhead ?
Only the truly repentant (of sin) and washed (by the blood of Christ) are in the Godhead.

1 Peter 2:24 kjv
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Did Jesus sin? No.
Did he have our sin in himself?

Mississippi redneck
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[eddif]

??
What does this mean?

Colossians 2:16 kjv
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
When we read the Old Testament the physical is relating to the future spiritual reality.

Jesus fulfilled the law. We eat his body and drink his blood. Symbolism is everywhere and it is tough to navigate.

I suggest every person ask God for the understanding. I try to explain, but I am limited.
Also I think I sunburned my eyes and am having fits posting right now. Keeps me humble seeing mistakes in typing.

To look at a shadow for understanding is hard. To understand the meaning, we look at the body that cast the shadow.

Looking at Jesus explains the Law.

Best I can do is not good enough,.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people……
eddif

What would have been good for the OT Israelis, would also be good for the Gentiles of today.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Technichally, because cause and effect.

Care to elaborate ?

Intention to steal.
So you are actually supporting the fact that there is un intentional sin.

That is exactly the opposite of what I meant.

Because the theif in the example does not know of God's existence or His commands.
Just because he doesn't know God forbids stealing does not mean God didn't forbid stealing.

That thief had a conscience from God.
Thieves know stealing is wrong.

Wow! You cite another unintentional sin! Some people just get the desire, without control. And many lusters don't believe in God.
You prove the existence of un intentional sin yet again. WOOPS!!

Lust can be ignored, or resisted.
Thanks be to God, the repentant have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts ! (Gal 5:24)

Nothing about intent.

Doesn't it take some intent to follow after the enticement and lust ?

And, even if it did, how do you know this happens EVERY time someone sins? Right, you don't.

Without the temptation, lust, enticement and conception, there is no sin. (paraphrasing James 1:14-15)

Before you became Christian, were you aware that lying, stealing, etc. were sins against God?

Absolutely yes.

Having a concsience does not mean you knew for fact that God existed.

Agreed, some of God's gifts are described as innate.

You just FELT your way through what was right and wrong before you realized there was the Solid Standard for morals.
So before you were Christian, you sinned without intending to break God's Commands.

With the conscience God gave me, and everyone else, I knew when I was doing wrong.

So you have no EVIDENCE that that's referring to two different types of people, you just have a conclusion from a starting belief.

Can you walk in God, and in sin, at the same time ?

That depends on what you mean by the term "DOCTRINE".
What do you think it means?

Doctrine is a belief, or a set of beliefs.

Had or have?

As those washed of sin by the blood of Christ have gone from the past and into the present, the correct descriptor is "have".

Nope, refuted.

Then James 1:14-15 is wrong.

That has to do with s**. That debunks your claim.

Supra.

If the person is not aware they are breaking God's commands, the sin in not on purpose.

Then it isn't a sin.

Yes, people who do not actively live a Godly life do not know God.

I am glad we can agree on that.
No murderer, liar, adulterer, or thief, knows God.

Nowhere does this mean that saints don't accidentally sin once in a while, like seeing a woman and then a random bad desire jumps into their brain.

Can't you tell the difference between temptation and sin ?
Bad desires are temptations we can resist...if we are walking in God-light.

The sinner will likely entertain the thought, but the saint will be quick to get it out.

Correct.

Your "perfect humans" teaching would imply that nobody is a Born Again Christian. Even you are not saved, not "walking in the Light", if your teaching is true.

It is the false doctrine that nobody can live without sin, that decrees nobody is a Christian.
There is no sin in Christ, so only the obedient are actually in Him.

Nobody is good but God. Literally see what Jesus said. How does "perfect humans" stand up to that verse? Right, it CRUMBLES like any untrue teaching does under the Bible.

Is Jesus your example, or not ?
If He can live without sin, why can't we ?
God has supplied us with all that Jesus had, and Jesus had all the same problems we have.
Walk as Jesus walked ! That is the way to show you know God. (1 John 2:3-6)

Notice the, "EVEN AS". So we should AIM to walk like Christ walked.
There is no gurantee that we can always avoid sin.

It pains me that you have so little confidence in the Spirit of God that is given to the truly repentant and washed.

Can we go sinless for a long span of time? Yes.
For as long as we are saved and alive? Unlikely.

If we can resist temptation for a week, why not a month ?
Why not six months ?
Our repentance from sin is a commitment to obey God in all things.
Our rebirth from God's seed frees us from the weaknesses we once blamed for our rebellion against God.

Your "perfect humans" doctrine seems to be a half truth.

I don't recall opining perfect humans.
I do, however, posit perfectly obedient humans.

Yes. NOBODY is good but God alone. Jesus was and is and always will be God.

We can now walk "in God". (1 John 1:7)

Which ones, besides the Words in the OT?

The words that "nobody is good".

 

[Hopeful 2]

How do you know that? How do you know WHEN Jesus spoke those words?
Pretty sure the romans crucified people some years before Jesus came to earth.

We could not be crucified with Jesus until after Jesus had been crucified.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
And..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:3-7)

So are you saying that everyone before Jesus' time had their destiny stuck on "eternal torment" ??

The OT Jews had their Law for their atonements.
Those with faith in the coming Redeemer, will be found written in the book of life on the last day.

No gurantee they would be forever able to keep that walk.

There are no guarantees.
It takes prayer and study, growth in knowledge and grace, learning old and new things.
It takes love for God and for ones neighbors.
It takes faith, hope, and charity.
It takes work.

The saint will get likely get up from his slip up but the sinner will want to wallow in sin.

If he is a saint, he will, as scripture says..."Resist the devil and he will flee from you". (James 4:7)

Besides, your position rests on the BELIEF that all sin is intentional.

My position rests on all scripture being true, and on the Spirit of God that is given to the truly repentant.

So that means many non-Christians in third world countries never sin because they are unaware of God or His Commands.
Which is false, because your claim is incorrect.

They have the same conscience that God has given to all men. (Rom 2:14)

So humans save themselves by getting baptized??! What madness. God saves us. We do not do ANYTHING to save ourselves.
The notion that we can do actions to save ourselves is straight out of pagan religions.

God saves the obedient.
We are commanded to be baptized.

OR
do you believe that God is baptizing us, not ourselves or other people?

Our initial baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, can be done by whoever told you the gospel.
But God does the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

When you are dunked, who or Who is doing the dunking?

Anyone can baptize with water...in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

I mean any works not just OT Israelite works.

Those OT Jewish works were the only ones Paul wrote against.

Ok

Yay !!!

Guranteed to never sin ever? Or likelihood? Biblically, the latter. Vain hope, the former.

There is no guarantee.
It takes all we have, and all that God had given us, to remain loyal to God.

That verse refers to Christians being saved and doing great things, but later they willfully refused to follow God at some point.

It refers to posers.
Men who spouse Godliness, without being Godly.

Mabye God wanted some of them to move away from their family, but they prioitize family over God. Or mabye God wants some to quit a job and move, but they love a job more than God. These are examples, both of which almost certainly happened in the past.

Yep, those who put God in second or third place in their own minds.

Yes, those who love things on earth more than God, especially those who are aware of Him and His laws, work iniquity.

Agreed

So you have not proven "perfect humans", but in fact, contradicted it, as shown by your citing of "lust".

I have never preached "perfect humans".
I preach perfect obedience to God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So you think the Bible has no power? The Bible has TONS of words in it.

Laying on somebodies shelf, it has no power.

A logical, evidence-based post will consist of many words.

Not necessarily.

You yourself just made a lengthy post addressing me. So i don't know if you believe that.

Yeah ?
I see that some of your posts are getting kinds long.
But I am happy to keep answering legitimate questions about obedience to God.

Seems like you don't have a strong defense for "perfect humans".

I wouldn't ever try.
On the other hand, I will continue to write about perfectly obeying the One who died for me.

The Bible: 1 . Vain hope: 0

I am realizing that hope now, so there is no need to hope for some future day of repentance from sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Skimming his posts does not mean he "didnt get to the point".

Who was only skimming ?

skimming can mean "Reading or glancing through quickly."

Yeah, and,...what ?

By this, you obviously mean "perfect humans teaching".

Not at all.
Paul remained obedient to God even with his "thorn in the flesh".
I don't need a perfect body to obey God perfectly.

It could be a lie or simply error, depending if the person is aware "" is false or not.
The proof "perfect humans" is in error is found in his posts. and in mind, and in the Bible....

Then he is arguing a point I didn't make.
I have not written of perfect humans.

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 Peter 2:24 kjv
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Did Jesus sin? No.
Did he have our sin in himself?

According to scripture, He did.

 

[eddif]

What would have been good for the OT Israelis, would also be good for the Gentiles of today.

The thing is this:
Without looking at which covenant is in operation, that is nearly impossible to answer.

Isaiah 53 says by his stripes we are healed. The shadow from the future is reaching into the past.

1 Peter 2 says by his stripes we were healed. In this case the past actions reach into the future.

I am not trying to avoid answering, but I do see a problem in answering with a simple answer.

OT Jews were healed by something that had not happened yet.

Salvation ( eternal life ) is really complex for the Jew. Well not to complex. A Jew in Abraham’s bosom would have an opportunity to hear the Gospel when Jesus went to those bound in the grave.

And I really apologize for even mentioning this.
But

We are almost looking at saints getting a wedding garment in the grave. And, discussing the book of Hebrews gets hard to show sinless perfection (although partial saint perfection may be approached).

The covenants have parallels.

For seed to be the Word of God (time and context interaction) must be at least be glanced at. LOL

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

The thing is this:
Without looking at which covenant is in operation, that is nearly impossible to answer.

I agree.

Isaiah 53 says by his stripes we are healed. The shadow from the future is reaching into the past.

It was the past, when written, so isn't actually reaching anywhere.
The shadow from the Isaiah's time was to be fulfilled in the future.

1 Peter 2 says by his stripes we were healed. In this case the past actions reach into the future.

OK...the prophesy from the past has now been fulfilled.

I am not trying to avoid answering, but I do see a problem in answering with a simple answer.
OT Jews were healed by something that had not happened yet.

They couldn't "be healed" until the prophesied event actually occurred.

Salvation ( eternal life ) is really complex for the Jew. Well not to complex. A Jew in Abraham’s bosom would have an opportunity to hear the Gospel when Jesus went to those bound in the grave.

That is another topic for sure.

And I really apologize for even mentioning this.
But
We are almost looking at saints getting a wedding garment in the grave. And, discussing the book of Hebrews gets hard to show sinless perfection (although partial saint perfection may be approached).
The covenants have parallels.
For seed to be the Word of God (time and context interaction) must be at least be glanced at. LOL

OK.
Back on topic...Do you believe reborn men can remain sinless ?

 

[eddif]

I agree.

It was the past, when written, so isn't actually reaching anywhere.
The shadow from the Isaiah's time was to be fulfilled in the future.

OK...the prophesy from the past has now been fulfilled.

They couldn't "be healed" until the prophesied event actually occurred.

That is another topic for sure.

OK.
Back on topic...Do you believe reborn men can remain sinless ?

Not in and of themselves.

He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure.

Church discipline works to Restore a Brother or Sister overtaken in a fault

Turned over to Satan the flesh is destroyed that in the day of the Lord they are saved.

Do we really want to go through all that?

But
That is how I believe we make it to the final sinless perfection of the changes of the last trump.

I don’t think each of us sees it all.

There are some things Catholics see that most everyone else misses. In particular: miracles, special places, refraining from marriage in certain times. Am I in to all of that? No, but I do consider some of them, because of certain Jewish parallels.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not in and of themselves.
He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure.

"HE" is undefeated in resisting temptation, so in us, will have the same victory.

Church discipline works to Restore a Brother or Sister overtaken in a fault

That is beside the point.

Turned over to Satan the flesh is destroyed that in the day of the Lord they are saved.
Do we really want to go through all that?

No, let's stay on this topic.
Let's determine whether or not "sinless perfection" is a lie.
I know it is true, and not a lie.

But
That is how I believe we make it to the final sinless perfection of the changes of the last trump.

You don't beleive we can be perfectly obedient until the last trump ?
Won't that be too late ?

I don’t think each of us sees it all.

What is the "it" you see/don't see ?

There are some things Catholics see that most everyone else misses. In particular: miracles, special places, refraining from marriage in certain times. Am I in to all of that? No, but I do consider some of them, because of certain Jewish parallels.

Catholicism, and their POV, is off topic.