Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[eddif]

"HE" is undefeated in resisting temptation, so in us, will have the same victory.

Psalms 110:1 kjv
1. A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus will not be totally victorious till He comes on the last day IMHO

The last enemy to be defeated is death.
The Resurrection brings all out of the graves. Our Lord - Jesus
Was told by His Lord the Father, to wait

Jesus leaves Heaven when the Father completes the work.

Can I totally explain this? Not yet.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

That is beside the point.

IMHO it is part of our remaining in faith. If a Brither is in trouble with their believing. Restoration can come through Church discipline. If the Brother has not been able to resist sin on his own, he is approached privately to handle the sin. If that fails then helpers approach the Brother. If that fails the
Brother is removed from the Church and handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Not for the destruction of his Spirit man.

Multi stage process in scripture.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

No, let's stay on this topic.
Let's determine whether or not "sinless perfection" is a lie.
I know it is true, and not a lie.

Getting to perfection is the topic I am describing. Hopefully I am on task. We sometimes help from others to stay on the way to perfection at the last trump.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[KV-44-v1]

That is exactly the opposite of what I meant.

Yes, you refute your own points by accident sometimes.

That thief had a conscience from God.
Thieves know stealing is wrong.

You still haven't addressed that the theif did not know of God's existence or that it was He Who made it wrong.
So he did not intend to rebel against God.

How do you "intentionally rebel" against a Ruler you do not know or believe exists??

You have to know that

1. God is Real. 2. He gave clear commands in the Bible. 3. WHAT those Commands ARE.

But, if one sin when they already accepted this knowledge as fact, it is intentional sin. WithOUT this knowledge, un intentional.

Lust can be ignored, or resisted.

The fact remains that you cited an un intentional sin.

Doesn't it take some intent to follow after the enticement and lust ?

Yes. But many who follow them do not know ABOUT , or do not Believe, in God and His commands.

Without the temptation, lust, enticement and conception, there is no sin. (paraphrasing James 1:14-15)

That's quite a stretch from what James says. Terrible paraphrase.

Absolutely yes.

So you believed that God existed and knew all His commands before you became a Christian???

Pretty sure the correct answer is "no".

With the conscience God gave me, and everyone else, I knew when I was doing wrong.

But you never knew WHY until you became a Christian.

How did you know the Biblical God existed before you became Christian??
As opposed to any other gods/ no god or God?


You just FELT your way through what was right and wrong before you realized there was the Solid Standard for morals.So before you were Christian, you sinned without intending to break God's Commands.

Can you walk in God, and in sin, at the same time ?

No, but the saved Christian, after being saved, will walk in God longer than in sin. There is no gurantee that the righteous will never, ever momentarily slip into a sin.

Since your "perfection" teaching rests not on the Bible , but on the contraBiblical belief that "all sin is intentional", then it is on a foundation of Sand.

22 ‘But when you unintentionally do wrong and fail to comply with all these commandments which the Lord has spoken to Moses, 23 that is, all that the Lord has commanded you through Moses from the day that the Lord gave commandments and onward, throughout your generations, 24 then it shall be, if it is done unintentionally, without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one bull as a burnt offering, as a soothing aroma to the Lord, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one male goat as a sin offering. 25 Then the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and they will be forgiven; for it was an unintentional wrong, and they have brought their offering, an offering by fire to the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their unintentional wrong. 26 So all the congregation of the sons of Israel will be forgiven, as well as the stranger who resides among them, for guilt was attributed to all the people through an unintentional wrong.

Numbers 15:22-26

There was un intentional sin then. And there still is today.

All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. (Romans 3:23)

Doctrine is a belief, or a set of beliefs.

So yes, the Gospel is doctrine by that definition. It's the Good News that Jesus died and rose.
We believe that Jesus did what He did.

Then James 1:14-15 is wrong.

Nope, only your stretch of it. Eigesis is bad.

Supra

????

Then it isn't a sin.

XD
Just because you rebel without the knowledge, does not magically mean you have not rebelled.

Correct

So you admit that it can jump into the Saint. And that the Saint will be quick to get it out.
A righteous man may fall, and if/when he does, he will get back up!

It is the false doctrine that nobody can live without sin, that decrees nobody is a Christian.

No. We are Christians in spite of any accidental sins along the way.


Romans 7:7-20 destroys your teaching:

"7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? Far from it! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by bringing about my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 However, if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, that the Law is good. 17 But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me."

How does your teaching get around this? I'd like to see.

There is no sin in Christ, so only the obedient are actually in Him.

May as well argue that "God has power. We have power too, so we can become Omnipotent".
ALL fall short of the Glory of God.
There is no gurantee that the saved will never sin. Sure, there MAY (emphasis on MAY) have been people who, after being saved, never did a sin again. But the longer time goes on, the more likely it is the person will sin.
But thing is, the Saint will get back up. Unless he wants to break away, and become unsaved.

Is Jesus your example, or not ?
If He can live without sin, why can't we ?

See above, with the tan/beige text.

God has supplied us with all that Jesus had, and Jesus had all the same problems we have.
Walk as Jesus walked ! That is the way to show you know God. (1 John 2:3-6)

Yep. No gurantee against stumbling along the way.

It pains me that you have so little confidence in the Spirit of God that is given to the truly repentant and washed.

If we can resist temptation for a week, why not a month ?

We COULD. No gurantee that we WILL.

Why not six months ?

Same.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Our repentance from sin is a commitment to obey God in all things.

Humans are fallible. There's no reason to vainly hope in our ability to keep it.

Remember:

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, 23 but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Even if we don't intend to sin, we still slip up. Un intentional sin.
Tell me where the person writing this was tempted. Right, its not there.

Three kinds of un intentional sin, which means Sinning by accident.
1. NOT intending to do what you DO KNOW is a sin against God. (Ie, a Christian getting a lustful thought in their head before they go to sleep.)
2. And Intending to do what you DON'T know is a sin against God. (Like an athiest crafting up a lie to tell to someone they dislike.)
3. And NOT intending to do what you DON'T know is a sin against God. ( Like: An athiest takes Bob's Nintendo, but the athiest thought it was Sally's, since Sally gave permission to take her nintendo.)

Our rebirth from God's seed frees us from the weaknesses we once blamed for our rebellion against God.

Doesn't mean that we won't fall back into bondage.
Just because someone is saved does not mean they lose free will, or that they won't fall back into their "chains".

We can now walk "in God". (1 John 1:7)

Yep. Nothing about "slip free gaurantee".

"nobody is good".

Yep. So much for your teaching.

 

[KV-44-v1]

We could not be crucified with Jesus until after Jesus had been crucified.

"Crucified with Christ" is a metaphor.

We are not literally stuck up on a physical cross, are we? Are you?

JESUS' crucifixion was not a metaphor. He was stuck on a physical Cross, we aren't.

It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
And..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:3-7)

Yes, crucifixion here is a reference to Christ. Not us getting put on a Cross.

You just debunked your own teaching AGAIN.
Typical false doctrines, making arguments that wind up refuting it.

For he THAT IS DEAD is free from sin. See? Your doctrine is indeed a HALF truth! The gurantee comes AT DEATH! The saved will almost certainly have repented and become clean BEFORE dying.

Saved people dying is their only real gurantee against sinning.
No anti-slip gurantees, when alive.

The "old man" seems to be our bodies in this fallen world.
"should not" means "Should not", NOT "will not".

The OT Jews had their Law for their atonements.
Those with faith in the coming Redeemer, will be found written in the book of life on the last day.

But how could this be, if "Nobody was walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh yet."

There are no guarantees.

I love how you refute your own teaching for me. Makes it easier.

It takes prayer and study, growth in knowledge and grace, learning old and new things.
It takes love for God and for ones neighbors.
It takes faith, hope, and charity.
It takes work.

Work from who? Fallible us? Yep, theres no gurantee we will keep staying sinless as long as we are alive AND Saved. Un-intentional sin is real. The Bible proves it. Why do you want to ignore what Leviticus says?

If he is a saint, he will, as scripture says..."Resist the devil and he will flee from you". (James 4:7)

Yup. But sin does not always come about because "the devil did it".
The saint will get likely get up from his slip up but the sinner will want to wallow in sin.

My position rests on all scripture being true,

Then why did your posts demonstrate otherwise, and even refute your "perfect" teaching?

They have the same conscience that God has given to all men. (Rom 2:14)

That does not mean that they are aware of God or that He commanded us.

How is "feeling a vague instinct about concepts" knowledge??

God saves the obedient.

And God forgives our mistakes in our Walk.

We are commanded to be baptized.

Where?
And how? Physically or in Spirit? (Matthew 3:11)
God baptizes us in Matthew 3:11. We just accept what God is doing.

As you learned, the notion that WE can save OURSELVES, in the "Jesus Saves" sense, is nothing more than a form of humanism and a pagan notion.

Those OT Jewish works were the only ones Paul wrote against.

Verses?
Are you implying that humans can save themselves???? If we can, why do we need God to save us??

There is no guarantee.
It takes all we have, and all that God had given us, to remain loyal to God.

Yet again you shoot your own case, and don't realize it.

We have a sin nature. There's no gurantee we won't accidentally sin.

It refers to posers.
Men who spouse Godliness, without being Godly.

Oh? Then HOW were they able to cast out demons? Their works were called "wonderful", not "corrupted" or "compromised" or anything along those lines. I wonder what the Greek was for "wonderful".

I have never preached "perfect humans".
I preach perfect obedience to God.

" The meaning of perfection in the Bible relates to a state of completeness or absolute wholeness. Biblical perfection involves freedom from fault, defect, or shortcoming. In the New Testament, a Greek term for “perfection” can also mean “maturity.” The Bible expresses perfection in at least three different contexts: the perfection of God, the perfection of Christ, and the "perfection" of humans.

Absolute perfection is a quality that belongs to God alone. "

"As we read in Matthew 5:48, God’s children are called to be perfect. This does not mean that humans can obtain the same holy perfection as God, for He alone is set apart in holiness (Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 99:9; Exodus 15:11)."

Just because we have a GOAL does NOT mean we WILL achieve it. You literally admit there is "no gurantee".

Laying on somebodies shelf, it has no power.

Explain??

Not necessarily.

But in many many cases.

But I am happy to keep answering legitimate questions about obedience to God.


On the other hand, I will continue to write

I'm glad. In the battle between truth and error, TRUTH will win in the end.

I am realizing that hope now,

So you do choose vain hope.
Seems that "Hopeful 2" means "Too much hope"!!

so there is no need to hope for some future day of repentance from sin.

explain?

Who was only skimming ?

Yeah, and,...what ?

You seemed to be.

Not at all.
Paul remained obedient to God even with his "thorn in the flesh".
I don't need a perfect body to obey God perfectly.

We have a fallen nature.
Given that your definition of "obey God perfectly" means "never sinning, even accidentally", no.

Then he is arguing a point I didn't make.
I have not written of perfect humans.

How are "perfectly obedient" (by YOUR definition) humans "not perfect"?

Let's determine whether or not "sinless perfection" is a lie.
I know it is true, and not a lie.

Tenchi proves otherwise.

1 John 2:28
"
Now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not draw back from Him in shame at His coming.
"
So why do we need to be told "remain in Him"? Won't we with our "perfect obedience (again, by YOUR belief about it)" AUTOMATICALLY remain in Him? Did God waste words?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Psalms 110:1 kjv
1. A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus will not be totally victorious till He comes on the last day IMHO

You are changing the context of what we were discussing.
Jesus was victorious over sin, and over temptation/devil.
As the reborn are "in Christ", we can partake of that victory.

The last enemy to be defeated is death.
The Resurrection brings all out of the graves. Our Lord - Jesus
Was told by His Lord the Father, to wait

Jesus leaves Heaven when the Father completes the work.

Can I totally explain this? Not yet.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

IMHO it is part of our remaining in faith. If a Brither is in trouble with their believing. Restoration can come through Church discipline. If the Brother has not been able to resist sin on his own, he is approached privately to handle the sin. If that fails then helpers approach the Brother.

Don't forget this step..."Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." (1 Tim 5:20)

If that fails the
Brother is removed from the Church and handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Not for the destruction of his Spirit man.

My understanding of 1 Cor 5:5..."To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."...is this: Paul differentiates between the unholy and the holy thus wise...The departed sinner was "the flesh" from the perspective of the church.
The "spirit" is the church from which the sinner was cut off from.
i.e....Get rid of the sinner that the church may be saved !

Multi stage process in scripture.

Yeah, the Lord wants all to be saved, so has much patience.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Getting to perfection is the topic I am describing. Hopefully I am on task. We sometimes help from others to stay on the way to perfection at the last trump.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

The last trump's perfection will account for the new vessel's perfection.
We can be sinlessly obedient now ! ...since the resurrection of Jesus from the grave.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, you refute your own points by accident sometimes

Show an instance.

You still haven't addressed that the theif did not know of God's existence or that it was He Who made it wrong.
So he did not intend to rebel against God.

God gave us all a conscience to know right from wrong.

How do you "intentionally rebel" against a Ruler you do not know or believe exists??

The "ruler" in this case is one's own conscience.

You have to know that
1. God is Real. 2. He gave clear commands in the Bible. 3. WHAT those Commands ARE.

That works fine for those familiar with some religions.
But for those without a knowledge of a supreme Being, their conscience is their guide, and how they will be judged. (Rom 2:15)

But, if one sin when they already accepted this knowledge as fact, it is intentional sin. WithOUT this knowledge, un intentional.

If it hurts one's own conscience, the religious would call that 'hurt' a sin.

The fact remains that you cited an un intentional sin.

I am not following.
If I enters a foreign country and blithely do something that is against their law, it is only a sin according to that nation.
It isn't a sin to me.

Yes. But many who follow them do not know ABOUT , or do not Believe, in God and His commands.

True, but they still have a conscience by which they will be judged.

That's quite a stretch from what James says. Terrible paraphrase.

Still true though.
James wrote..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
Man can be tempted and enticed to satisfy a lust, (or a previous lust of one's pre-crucifixion with Christ days), but if he doesn't act on the temptation, (conception), no sin was committed.

So you believed that God existed and knew all His commands before you became a Christian???
Pretty sure the correct answer is "no".

I knew only some of His commands.
I also knew many of the Law of Moses' additions, held by the OT Jews.

But you never knew WHY until you became a Christian.

Why I believed ?
I never thought about why I believed.

How did you know the Biblical God existed before you became Christian??
As opposed to any other gods/ no god or God?

My parents believed in a God, and I followed them.

You just FELT your way through what was right and wrong before you realized there was the Solid Standard for morals.So before you were Christian, you sinned without intending to break God's Commands.

MY "standard" was the back of my mom's hand, or what ever she could get her hands on, when I was bad.

No,

YAAAAAAA !

but the saved Christian, after being saved, will walk in God longer than in sin.

So just the ratio changes at belief/conversion ?
Where is the love for Jesus who died for your sins ?

There is no gurantee that the righteous will never, ever momentarily slip into a sin.

Such a slip betrays from whence one is actually born.
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:8-10)

Since your "perfection" teaching rests not on the Bible , but on the contraBiblical belief that "all sin is intentional", then it is on a foundation of Sand.

Is it a sin if a kid runs out in front of your car and you kill him ?
As long as you had been exercising caution in that neighborhood, is that child's death "your fault" ?

Numbers 15:22-26
There was un intentional sin then. And there still is today.

Then you are an OT keeping Jew.
Want to be saved ?
Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. (Romans 3:23)

Yep...oh...except for Enoch, and Elijah, and John the Baptist (I would presume), and Jesus.
So even your "law" has exceptions.

So yes, the Gospel is doctrine by that definition. It's the Good News that Jesus died and rose.
We believe that Jesus did what He did.

Yes.
But that is not "all" of the doctrine the converted follow.
Heb. 6 gives a partial list.

Nope, only your stretch of it. Eigesis is bad.

So it is a sin when you kill that kid.

????

Supra means...already covered earlier.

XD
Just because you rebel without the knowledge, does not magically mean you have not rebelled.

So killing that kid was sin.

So you admit that it can jump into the Saint. And that the Saint will be quick to get it out.
A righteous man may fall, and if/when he does, he will get back up!

No, it was the sinner who entertained the temptation.
The holy resist temptation.

No. We are Christians in spite of any accidental sins along the way.

1 John 3:8-10

Romans 7:7-20 destroys your teaching:

Rom 7:5 and 7:18 show that Paul is narrating past events.

How does your teaching get around this? I'd like to see.

Rom 7:23 was answered in Rom 8:2, and Rom 7:24 was answered in Rom 6:6.

May as well argue that "God has power. We have power too, so we can become Omnipotent".
ALL fall short of the Glory of God.

Yep.
It sorrows me to think that Jesus' death and resurrection were not enough to make you love Him above any temptations.

There is no gurantee that the saved will never sin.

It they are "saved" their day of judgement has already occurred.
It hasn't.
The only guarantee I have of not ever sinning again, is my faith that being reborn of God's seed won't permit me to bear the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9)

Sure, there MAY (emphasis on MAY) have been people who, after being saved, never did a sin again. But the longer time goes on, the more likely it is the person will sin.
But thing is, the Saint will get back up. Unless he wants to break away, and become unsaved.

If he loves God, he won't serve sin.

Yep. No gurantee against stumbling along the way.

Our salvation is ours to lose...or hold fast to.

We COULD. No gurantee that we WILL.

You said it...We COULD.
You are just a little bit closer to God's love now than you were before you wrote that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Humans are fallible. There's no reason to vainly hope in our ability to keep it.

Remember:


Even if we don't intend to sin, we still slip up. Un intentional sin.
Tell me where the person writing this was tempted. Right, its not there.

Three kinds of un intentional sin, which means Sinning by accident.
1. NOT intending to do what you DO KNOW is a sin against God. (Ie, a Christian getting a lustful thought in their head before they go to sleep.)
2. And Intending to do what you DON'T know is a sin against God. (Like an athiest crafting up a lie to tell to someone they dislike.)
3. And NOT intending to do what you DON'T know is a sin against God. ( Like: An athiest takes Bob's Nintendo, but the athiest thought it was Sally's, since Sally gave permission to take her nintendo.)

Doesn't mean that we won't fall back into bondage.
Just because someone is saved does not mean they lose free will, or that they won't fall back into their "chains".

Yep. Nothing about "slip free gaurantee".

Yep. So much for your teaching.

If you keep looking for guarantees that you love God without hesitation, you will never find them.
That search is counter to faith.

 

[electedbyHim]

It is my belief that those who claim to be without sin have a seared conscience. They have departed from the teaching of Scripture and promote doctrines of demons.

A reference to conscience in the New Testament is to a conscience that is “seared” or rendered insensitive as though it had been cauterized with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:1-2). Such a conscience is hardened and calloused, no longer feeling anything. A person with a seared conscience no longer listens to its promptings, and he can sin with abandon, delude himself into thinking all is well with his soul, and treat others insensitively and without compassion.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who have been seared in their own conscience,


Seared ("scarred") in their own conscience as with a branding iron - They lied so much that they had in effect seared their own consciences! In effect they had come to believe their own lies! Seared is kausteriazo (used only here in Scripture - English cauterize as we do in surgery to stop bleeding) and is a verb meaning to brand with a red-hot iron. It described the marking of a slave with the owner's brand. That is an interesting secular use, as these men were in effect slaves to their sinful passions! One commentator (Guthrie) even says that these men are "branded" indicating ownership by Satan! (cf 2 Ti 2:26+). Quite a contrast with Paul who bore on his "body the brand-marks (stigma) of Jesus!" (Gal 6:17+). The idea is that the conscience is so destroyed that they refuse to listen any longer to their conscience! This reminds me of lepers who have had their sensory nerve endings destroyed by the leprae bacilli and as a result can no longer feel pain which results in frequent injury including burns which they cannot feel. Pain is a protective mechanism and a "pained" conscience is also a moral/ethically protective mechanism. Seared is in the perfect tense depicting this their continuing condition or state. The fact that their consciences were seared allowed them to teach the falsehoods without any hesitation, reservation or regret.

Speaking lies in hypocrisy If these words refer to “demons,” then this word will mean men deceiving through the instigation of the devil. But we may also supply the words, “of men speaking.” He now descends to a particular instance, when he says that they “speak lies in hypocrisy,” and have their conscience seared with a hot iron And, indeed, it ought to be known that these two are so closely Joined together that the former springs from the latter; for consciences, that are bad and seared with the hot iron of their crimes, always flee to hypocrisy as a ready refuge; that is, they contrive hypocritical presences, in order to dazzle the eyes of God; and what else is done by those who endeavor to appease God by the mask of outward observances?

The word hypocrisy must therefore be explained agreeably to the passage in which it now occurs; for, first, it must relate to doctrine, and, next, it denotes that kind of doctrine which adulterates the spiritual worship of God by exchanging its genuine purity for bodily exercises; and thus it includes all methods contrived by men for appeasing God or obtaining his favor. The meaning may be thus summed up; first, that all who assume a pretended sanctimoniousness are led by the instigation of the devil; because God is never worshipped aright by outward ceremonies; for true worshipers “worship him in spirit and truth,” (Joh_4:24) and, secondly, that this is a useless medicine, by which hypocrites mitigate their pains, or rather a plaster by which bad consciences conceal their wounds, without any advantage, and to their utter destruction. John Calvin
seared. A medical term referring to cauterization. False teachers can teach their hypocritical lies because their consciences have been desensitized (cf. Eph_4:19), as if all the nerves that make them feel had been destroyed and turned into scar tissue by the burning of demonic deception. Macarthur
Speaking lies in hypocrisy,.... Or "through the hypocrisy of those that speak lies"; for the apostle is still speaking of the means by which the apostasy should rise, and get ground; and it should be by the means of persons that should deliver lying or false doctrine under the colour of truth, and make great pretensions to religion and holiness, which would greatly take with men, and captivate and lead them aside: and this plainly points at the abettors of antichrist, the Romish priests, who deliver out the lying doctrines of merit, purgatory, invocation of saints, fastings, pilgrimages, &c. and the fabulous legends of saints, and the lying wonders and miracles done by them, and all under a show of godliness, and the promoting of religion and holiness:

having their conscience seared with a hot iron; which exactly describes the above mentioned persons, whose consciences are cauterized and hardened, and past feeling; and have no regard to what they say or do, make no conscience of anything, but under a cloak of sanctity commit the most shocking impieties; and are men of the most infamous characters, and of the most enormous and scandalous lives and conversations; so that the metaphor may be taken either from the searing of flesh with an iron, or cauterizing it, whereby it grows callous and hard; or from the stigmas or marks which used to be put on malefactors, or such who have been guilty of notorious crimes.
John Gill

 

[Hopeful 2]

"Crucified with Christ" is a metaphor.

It is an actuality for those with faith.

We are not literally stuck up on a physical cross, are we? Are you?
JESUS' crucifixion was not a metaphor. He was stuck on a physical Cross, we aren't.
Yes, crucifixion here is a reference to Christ. Not us getting put on a Cross.

Gal 5:24..." And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

You just debunked your own teaching AGAIN.
Typical false doctrines, making arguments that wind up refuting it.

Got faith ?

For he THAT IS DEAD is free from sin. See? Your doctrine is indeed a HALF truth! The gurantee comes AT DEATH! The saved will almost certainly have repented and become clean BEFORE dying.

My death occurred when I was "immersed" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)

Saved people dying is their only real gurantee against sinning.

So true, and God furnishes our "wages of sin" at our baptism into Christ's death.


As most of your prior writings are of guarantees, how do you guarantee there is a God ?
You fuss and fight over tenets requiring belief/faith, but seem to show your belief and faith in other facets.
Did you fight so hard for proof of Jesus' death ?

No anti-slip gurantees, when alive.

The "old man" seems to be our bodies in this fallen world.
"should not" means "Should not", NOT "will not".


But how could this be, if "Nobody was walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh yet."




I love how you refute your own teaching for me. Makes it easier.

Work from who? Fallible us? Yep, theres no gurantee we will keep staying sinless as long as we are alive AND Saved. Un-intentional sin is real. The Bible proves it. Why do you want to ignore what Leviticus says?





Yup. But sin does not always come about because "the devil did it".
The saint will get likely get up from his slip up but the sinner will want to wallow in sin.



Then why did your posts demonstrate otherwise, and even refute your "perfect" teaching?



That does not mean that they are aware of God or that He commanded us.

How is "feeling a vague instinct about concepts" knowledge??


And God forgives our mistakes in our Walk.

Where?
And how? Physically or in Spirit? (Matthew 3:11)
God baptizes us in Matthew 3:11. We just accept what God is doing.

As you learned, the notion that WE can save OURSELVES, in the "Jesus Saves" sense, is nothing more than a form of humanism and a pagan notion.

Verses?
Are you implying that humans can save themselves???? If we can, why do we need God to save us??


Yet again you shoot your own case, and don't realize it.

We have a sin nature. There's no gurantee we won't accidentally sin.



Oh? Then HOW were they able to cast out demons? Their works were called "wonderful", not "corrupted" or "compromised" or anything along those lines. I wonder what the Greek was for "wonderful".




" The meaning of perfection in the Bible relates to a state of completeness or absolute wholeness. Biblical perfection involves freedom from fault, defect, or shortcoming. In the New Testament, a Greek term for “perfection” can also mean “maturity.” The Bible expresses perfection in at least three different contexts: the perfection of God, the perfection of Christ, and the "perfection" of humans.

Absolute perfection is a quality that belongs to God alone. "

"As we read in Matthew 5:48, God’s children are called to be perfect. This does not mean that humans can obtain the same holy perfection as God, for He alone is set apart in holiness (Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 99:9; Exodus 15:11)."

Just because we have a GOAL does NOT mean we WILL achieve it. You literally admit there is "no gurantee".




Explain??


But in many many cases.



I'm glad. In the battle between truth and error, TRUTH will win in the end.



So you do choose vain hope.
Seems that "Hopeful 2" means "Too much hope"!!

explain?


You seemed to be.

We have a fallen nature.
Given that your definition of "obey God perfectly" means "never sinning, even accidentally", no.

How are "perfectly obedient" (by YOUR definition) humans "not perfect"?


Tenchi proves otherwise.

1 John 2:28
"
Now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not draw back from Him in shame at His coming.
"
So why do we need to be told "remain in Him"? Won't we with our "perfect obedience (again, by YOUR belief about it)" AUTOMATICALLY remain in Him? Did God waste words?

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is my belief that those who claim to be without sin have a seared conscience. They have departed from the teaching of Scripture and promote doctrines of demons.



1 Timothy 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who have been seared in their own conscience,


Seared ("scarred") in their own conscience as with a branding iron - They lied so much that they had in effect seared their own consciences! In effect they had come to believe their own lies! Seared is kausteriazo (used only here in Scripture - English cauterize as we do in surgery to stop bleeding) and is a verb meaning to brand with a red-hot iron. It described the marking of a slave with the owner's brand. That is an interesting secular use, as these men were in effect slaves to their sinful passions! One commentator (Guthrie) even says that these men are "branded" indicating ownership by Satan! (cf 2 Ti 2:26+). Quite a contrast with Paul who bore on his "body the brand-marks (stigma) of Jesus!" (Gal 6:17+). The idea is that the conscience is so destroyed that they refuse to listen any longer to their conscience! This reminds me of lepers who have had their sensory nerve endings destroyed by the leprae bacilli and as a result can no longer feel pain which results in frequent injury including burns which they cannot feel. Pain is a protective mechanism and a "pained" conscience is also a moral/ethically protective mechanism. Seared is in the perfect tense depicting this their continuing condition or state. The fact that their consciences were seared allowed them to teach the falsehoods without any hesitation, reservation or regret.

Speaking lies in hypocrisy If these words refer to “demons,” then this word will mean men deceiving through the instigation of the devil. But we may also supply the words, “of men speaking.” He now descends to a particular instance, when he says that they “speak lies in hypocrisy,” and have their conscience seared with a hot iron And, indeed, it ought to be known that these two are so closely Joined together that the former springs from the latter; for consciences, that are bad and seared with the hot iron of their crimes, always flee to hypocrisy as a ready refuge; that is, they contrive hypocritical presences, in order to dazzle the eyes of God; and what else is done by those who endeavor to appease God by the mask of outward observances?

The word hypocrisy must therefore be explained agreeably to the passage in which it now occurs; for, first, it must relate to doctrine, and, next, it denotes that kind of doctrine which adulterates the spiritual worship of God by exchanging its genuine purity for bodily exercises; and thus it includes all methods contrived by men for appeasing God or obtaining his favor. The meaning may be thus summed up; first, that all who assume a pretended sanctimoniousness are led by the instigation of the devil; because God is never worshipped aright by outward ceremonies; for true worshipers “worship him in spirit and truth,” (Joh_4:24) and, secondly, that this is a useless medicine, by which hypocrites mitigate their pains, or rather a plaster by which bad consciences conceal their wounds, without any advantage, and to their utter destruction. John Calvin
seared. A medical term referring to cauterization. False teachers can teach their hypocritical lies because their consciences have been desensitized (cf. Eph_4:19), as if all the nerves that make them feel had been destroyed and turned into scar tissue by the burning of demonic deception. Macarthur
Speaking lies in hypocrisy,.... Or "through the hypocrisy of those that speak lies"; for the apostle is still speaking of the means by which the apostasy should rise, and get ground; and it should be by the means of persons that should deliver lying or false doctrine under the colour of truth, and make great pretensions to religion and holiness, which would greatly take with men, and captivate and lead them aside: and this plainly points at the abettors of antichrist, the Romish priests, who deliver out the lying doctrines of merit, purgatory, invocation of saints, fastings, pilgrimages, &c. and the fabulous legends of saints, and the lying wonders and miracles done by them, and all under a show of godliness, and the promoting of religion and holiness:

having their conscience seared with a hot iron; which exactly describes the above mentioned persons, whose consciences are cauterized and hardened, and past feeling; and have no regard to what they say or do, make no conscience of anything, but under a cloak of sanctity commit the most shocking impieties; and are men of the most infamous characters, and of the most enormous and scandalous lives and conversations; so that the metaphor may be taken either from the searing of flesh with an iron, or cauterizing it, whereby it grows callous and hard; or from the stigmas or marks which used to be put on malefactors, or such who have been guilty of notorious crimes.
John Gill

It is my belief that those who commit sin, don't know God.
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

 

[Tenchi]

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[electedbyHim]

Verse 10 proclaims volumes.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[JLB]

Don't forget this step..."Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." (1 Tim 5:20)

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure. 1 Timothy 5:20-22


Yes, these are instructions to Christian’s.


Your claim that if a person does sin, they were never saved is unbiblical.


Here are similar instructions from John.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9


We can confess our sins and be forgiven, learn and eventually overcome.




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:7..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin."
Your verse 8 pertains only to those who walk in darkness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure. 1 Timothy 5:20-22
Yes, these are instructions to Christian’s.

They are instructions to anyone who reads it.

Your claim that if a person does sin, they were never saved is unbiblical.

That is right.
For God's seed within the reborn keeps them from committing sin.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:9-10)

Here are similar instructions from John.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

Well, wait a second...If all our unrighteousness can be forgiven, why can't we say we have no sin ?

We can confess our sins and be forgiven, learn and eventually overcome.

If my sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, I am going to say that I have no sin !

 

[eddif]

Verse 10 proclaims volumes.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

The beauty of your post is:!

Verse 8- the lawful use of the law placed in our hearts and minds. The Prophets said this would happen.

Verse 9 - sets forgiveness in action and a good outcome of having done verse 8. Who does verse 9? The Godhead.

Verse 10 - proclaims you are truthfull if you have used the law lawfully, and praised Jesus for having fulfilled the law.

All that in 3 verses in a row.

I am sure my redneck comments can be improved.
eddif