The Life and the Blood

[for_his_glory]

Butch5 I do like how you presented what you said as even Theologians would have studied the scriptures, but yet like any of us are infallible in what they teach. They are no different than any Pastor we hear preach today. All things are found in scripture if we look hard enough to find it and put it all together. After studying just the scriptures here is what I have learned about body, soul and spirit beginning in Genesis. God is our life source through His very breath/spirit and the blood pumping through our heart is what keeps us alive.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit".

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

The soul departs from us when we physically die like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as it is eternal. Exodus 31:14 and Proverbs 11:30 are two examples of people referred to as souls as the human soul is created by God who gave breath to it, Genesis 2:7; Jeremiah 38:16.

The soul can be lost or saved as it belongs to God, Ezekiel 18:4; James 1:21. The soul is the part of the Spiritually born again that is purified and protected by the Holy Spirit and truth, 1 Peter 1:22 and Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls, 1 Peter 2:25.

These are the souls we read of in Rev 6:9-11 that are under the altar as they are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 I do like how you presented what you said as even Theologians would have studied the scriptures, but yet like any of us are infallible in what they teach. They are no different than any Pastor we hear preach today. All things are found in scripture if we look hard enough to find it and put it all together. After studying just the scriptures here is what I have learned about body, soul and spirit beginning in Genesis. God is our life source through His very breath/spirit and the blood pumping through our heart is what keeps us alive.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit".

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

The soul departs from us when we physically die like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as it is eternal. Exodus 31:14 and Proverbs 11:30 are two examples of people referred to as souls as the human soul is created by God who gave breath to it, Genesis 2:7; Jeremiah 38:16.

The soul can be lost or saved as it belongs to God, Ezekiel 18:4; James 1:21. The soul is the part of the Spiritually born again that is purified and protected by the Holy Spirit and truth, 1 Peter 1:22 and Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls, 1 Peter 2:25.

These are the souls we read of in Rev 6:9-11 that are under the altar as they are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Hi for_his_glory,

I agree with part of what you wrote. That the body returns to the dust and that the body+ the breath/spirit of God=the soul.

I disagree about the spirit. I see that the spirit or breath is God's, not man's. As I understand it there is no "human spirit". Remember, the word is breath. I would ask what is the "human breath"? When man dies the breath returns to God because it's God's breath. Job tells us that if God retrieved His breath all flesh would die.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

In this passage the word spirit is Neshamah and the word breath is ruach. So, we have both words here.

I also disagree with you on soul. Soul, throughout the Bible refers to living things. Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. Isaiah tells us that Jesus gave His soul for sins. We know that it was His death on the cross that was for sins and it was in the flesh. So, His giving His soul was in the flesh.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa. 53:10 KJV)

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 KJV)

Peter says that the suffering was in the flesh.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (1 Pet. 4:1 KJV)

I disagree too that the soul is immortal. As we see above Jesus poured out His soul to death. Also, Paul, in his letter to Timothy said that the Father alone is immortal.

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:15-16 KJV)

 

[KevinK]

I don't believe you'll find that in the Scriptures.

Probably not. I'm more "extra-curricular" than most of the members here.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hmmm. Sounds about right to me.
But I think that Allen Wynne s blood is blue.
You know,,,like royalty.

you call me?

http://bd.bloodman.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/bloodman-v2-1.png

 

[GodsGrace]

you call me?

http://bd.bloodman.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/bloodman-v2-1.png

NO. I didn't say you're the bloodman....
I said you're blood is blue...

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi for_his_glory,

I agree with part of what you wrote. That the body returns to the dust and that the body+ the breath/spirit of God=the soul.

I disagree about the spirit. I see that the spirit or breath is God's, not man's. As I understand it there is no "human spirit". Remember, the word is breath. I would ask what is the "human breath"? When man dies the breath returns to God because it's God's breath. Job tells us that if God retrieved His breath all flesh would die.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

In this passage the word spirit is Neshamah and the word breath is ruach. So, we have both words here.

I also disagree with you on soul. Soul, throughout the Bible refers to living things. Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. Isaiah tells us that Jesus gave His soul for sins. We know that it was His death on the cross that was for sins and it was in the flesh. So, His giving His soul was in the flesh.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa. 53:10 KJV)

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 KJV)

Peter says that the suffering was in the flesh.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (1 Pet. 4:1 KJV)

I disagree too that the soul is immortal. As we see above Jesus poured out His soul to death. Also, Paul, in his letter to Timothy said that the Father alone is immortal.

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:15-16 KJV)

If the soul dies.
And the soul is who you are.
Who are you going to be after you die?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory,

I agree with part of what you wrote. That the body returns to the dust and that the body+ the breath/spirit of God=the soul.

I disagree about the spirit. I see that the spirit or breath is God's, not man's. As I understand it there is no "human spirit". Remember, the word is breath. I would ask what is the "human breath"? When man dies the breath returns to God because it's God's breath. Job tells us that if God retrieved His breath all flesh would die.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

In this passage the word spirit is Neshamah and the word breath is ruach. So, we have both words here.

I also disagree with you on soul. Soul, throughout the Bible refers to living things. Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. Isaiah tells us that Jesus gave His soul for sins. We know that it was His death on the cross that was for sins and it was in the flesh. So, His giving His soul was in the flesh.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa. 53:10 KJV)

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 KJV)

Peter says that the suffering was in the flesh.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (1 Pet. 4:1 KJV)

I disagree too that the soul is immortal. As we see above Jesus poured out His soul to death. Also, Paul, in his letter to Timothy said that the Father alone is immortal.

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:15-16 KJV)

I did say the spirit is God's as it's the breath/spirit of God breathed in us.

The soul does refer to living things as the soul departs from us and returns back to God like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as the soul is eternal given by God, Exodus 31:14; Proverbs 11:30 as only God can take it from us.

 

[Butch5]

If the soul dies.
And the soul is who you are.
Who are you going to be after you die?

I'm not sure what you mean. After someone dies they're dead.

 

[Butch5]

I did say the spirit is God's as it's the breath/spirit of God breathed in us.

The soul does refer to living things as the soul departs from us and returns back to God like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as the soul is eternal given by God, Exodus 31:14; Proverbs 11:30 as only God can take it from us.

It's the spirit that returns to God. The soul ends. It's the life of the person. When a person dies the life ends. There are quite a few places where the Nephesh and psuche are translated life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure what you mean. After someone dies they're dead.

If you believe Christianity, we go on living after we die physically.

OK. So now I die...I'm physically dead and I'm buried.

God gave me a living spirit through Jesus...It is IN CHRIST that we have a resurrection life.
John 11:25-26

And that takes care of our spirit...our God part that goes to be with God.

But what happens TO ME??
WHAT lets ME BE ME?

Is it the spirit only?
Is not my spirit IN GOD the same as YOUR spirit in God?
We both love God and will mature in Him...our spirit is in tune with HIS spirit.

But what makes YOU be YOU
and ME be ME?

Why are our personalities different?
Why are our fears different?
WHAT MAKES US BE DIFFERENT?

It cannot be the spirit because those NOT BORN AGAIN have NOT the spirit of God in them...and yet, each one of them is different too.

What makes us be different from each other?
Why is each and every human different from all the others?

 

[Butch5]

If you believe Christianity, we go on living after we die physically.

OK. So now I die...I'm physically dead and I'm buried.

God gave me a living spirit through Jesus...It is IN CHRIST that we have a resurrection life.
John 11:25-26

And that takes care of our spirit...our God part that goes to be with God.

But what happens TO ME??
WHAT lets ME BE ME?

Is it the spirit only?
Is not my spirit IN GOD the same as YOUR spirit in God?
We both love God and will mature in Him...our spirit is in tune with HIS spirit.

But what makes YOU be YOU
and ME be ME?

Why are our personalities different?
Why are our fears different?
WHAT MAKES US BE DIFFERENT?

It cannot be the spirit because those NOT BORN AGAIN have NOT the spirit of God in them...and yet, each one of them is different too.

What makes us be different from each other?
Why is each and every human different from all the others?

Christianity doesn't teach that people are alive after they die. Some Christians teach that, but it's not from the Bible. I comes from Greek Philosophy. In Jesus' day Plato's philosophy was popular among the Greeks. Plato said that the soul would continue on after death and ascend through the heavens to the the ultimate god. As more and more gentiles, under Greek influence, began to become Christians this idea filtered into the Church. It is also the basis of Gnosticism which is a blending of Christian and Greek philosophies. The early Christian argued vehemently against the doctrines of the Gnostics.

People today believe this idea that the dead are alive, one wonders why they are called the dead if they are alive, and they use passages from the Bible from which this idea is "inferred" to try to prove their point. However, the Bible doesn't teach it.

What makes you and me different is our physical make up, our experiences, cultural influences, etc. That's why we're different. To describe man I use the analogy of the computer. One can build a computer, put together the various parts and boards until they have a finished computer. However, all they have is an inanimate object that can do nothing. This would be the man. However, when you apply electricity to the computer it comes to life. It can do complex operations, it can show graphics, it can do all kinds of things. The electricity would be God's breath or spirit of life. When you have the computer and the electricity combined, you have something alive (figuratively) that can do all kinds of amazing things. This would be the soul. However, if you take away the electricity The computer dies, it can no longer do amazing things. It's life, soul, is gone. all that is left is the physical remnants of the computer that over time will decay. It's the same with man. When God retrieves His breath or spirit, the soul dies, and the man, the body, will simply decay and return to the dust.

The Bible says that man will return to dust. The spirit or breath is something of God, it's not man. It gives him life when it is in him, but when it's not he is dead. There is no breath or spirit that is man. Man is not a spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's the spirit that returns to God. The soul ends. It's the life of the person. When a person dies the life ends. There are quite a few places where the Nephesh and psuche are translated life.

Isn't it contradicting those scriptures I gave with you saying the soul just dies?

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When God breathed His breath/spirit into us this made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7. Especially in Matthew 10:28 we see that body and soul are two different things as the body returns back to the ground our soul is either saved by God or destroyed by God.

So I will say it again, The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

 

[Butch5]

Isn't it contradicting those scriptures I gave with you saying the soul just dies?

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When God breathed His breath/spirit into us this made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7. Especially in Matthew 10:28 we see that body and soul are two different things as the body returns back to the ground our soul is either saved by God or destroyed by God.

So I will say it again, The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happinItess or misery in a future state.

It's not contradicting it at all. The soul is the whole being, the body and the spirit. When the body and the spirit are combined, together they form the soul. If the spirit is taken away their is no longer a soul. Consider water. If you combine two hydrogen atoms with an oxygen atom, you have water. If you take away the oxygen, the water ceases to exist. You can have two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, but if they are not combined you don't have water. Likewise if the spirit it taken from the soul there is no longer a soul. The spirit which is part of God returns to him and the body returns to the dust.

The word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It's used concretely of a living being. It's used abstractly as life. Take the passages that you posted above and reread them. Only this time where you see the word soul insert life. You'll see they make perfect sense.

 

[for_his_glory]

Butch5 here is another scripture I will add to those I gave you.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Just as our breath/spirit that God breathed into us making us a living soul, that soul along with the very breath/spirit God breathed into us returns back to Him when this physical body dies and returns back to the dust of the ground.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

When Christ returns He will bring with Him all the souls of all those who died that are Christ own as those souls will be reunited with the new resurrected immortal glorified bodies. So by this our soul returns back to God and is reserved or kept by God like the waiting souls under the altar that are waiting to be avenged for their blood that was spilled for the sake of Christ who is our eternal life through the blood He sacrificed for all as the soul can never die and leaves this body when we die and returns back to God who made us a living soul housed in this fleshly body.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christianity doesn't teach that people are alive after they die. Some Christians teach that, but it's not from the Bible. I comes from Greek Philosophy. In Jesus' day Plato's philosophy was popular among the Greeks. Plato said that the soul would continue on after death and ascend through the heavens to the the ultimate god. As more and more gentiles, under Greek influence, began to become Christians this idea filtered into the Church. It is also the basis of Gnosticism which is a blending of Christian and Greek philosophies. The early Christian argued vehemently against the doctrines of the Gnostics.

The idea of life after death came from the Greeks?
How does one explain that the Pharisees believed in life after death? How about the MacCabees....they also believed in life after death?

Did Jesus believe in life after death?
He told the thief of the cross THIS VERY DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
Was Jesus also influenced by Greek Philosophy? If so, why should we believe ANYTHING He said?

Paul said that to be absent from the body...one is present with Jesus...was Paul also influenced by Greek Philosophy?

So, IOW, we Christians are following Greek philosophy?
I thought we were following the word of God.

And what does gnosticism have to do with life after death?
Is this all they believed, or is there more to their story.

Have you read Luke 16:19-31?
Are you aware that scholars believe this to be a TRUE STORY and NOT a parable?

People today believe this idea that the dead are alive, one wonders why they are called the dead if they are alive, and they use passages from the Bible from which this idea is "inferred" to try to prove their point. However, the Bible doesn't teach it.

There is nothing "inferred" with the above verses. They are clear as day.

They are called the dead because they have gone to be in a different world or dimension.

Could you please post some scripture that supports your view?
Could you tell me WHY I should believe Jesus...who came back from the dead as He is the FIRST....if what you say is true?
Scripture please.

What makes you and me different is our physical make up, our experiences, cultural influences, etc. That's why we're different. To describe man I use the analogy of the computer. One can build a computer, put together the various parts and boards until they have a finished computer. However, all they have is an inanimate object that can do nothing. This would be the man. However, when you apply electricity to the computer it comes to life. It can do complex operations, it can show graphics, it can do all kinds of things. The electricity would be God's breath or spirit of life. When you have the computer and the electricity combined, you have something alive (figuratively) that can do all kinds of amazing things. This would be the soul. However, if you take away the electricity The computer dies, it can no longer do amazing things. It's life, soul, is gone. all that is left is the physical remnants of the computer that over time will decay. It's the same with man. When God retrieves His breath or spirit, the soul dies, and the man, the body, will simply decay and return to the dust.

Our bodies are the same .....
We have a skeleton, a nerve system, a digestive system, blood, hair, eyes, nose, etc. Our bodies are different in only superficial ways.

My arms to not cause me to kill a person.
WHAT would cause me to kill someone?
Why would Manson do this and not me?
What cause this is what makes us be different,,,and it's not the body.

Find out the difference between THE COMPUTER
and the OPERATING SYSTEM.

The Bible says that man will return to dust. The spirit or breath is something of God, it's not man. It gives him life when it is in him, but when it's not he is dead. There is no breath or spirit that is man. Man is not a spirit.

I agree with the above.
The only question is: The spirit is of God.
OK. So what happens to this spirit after we physically die?

As to man not being spirit...this is correct.
ONLY GOD IS SPIRIT...God Father and the Holy Spirit.

But we do have A SPIRIT, and IF it is from God...
IT WILL NEVER DIE.

We are made in the image of God.

Please don't reply with your beliefs,,,,but with replies to my questions.

Thanks.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 here is another scripture I will add to those I gave you.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Just as our breath/spirit that God breathed into us making us a living soul, that soul along with the very breath/spirit God breathed into us returns back to Him when this physical body dies and returns back to the dust of the ground.

There's nothing in Scripture that says that the soul returns to God. Regarding Rev. 6:9, remember, Revelation is a book of symbolism. Jesus is portrayed as a Lamb with seven eyes that had been slain. We know that Jesus was person, not a lamb. We also know that He had two eyes, not seven. There is symbolism all through the book. So, the question becomes what do these souls symbolize? Why are they under the altar?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

When Christ returns He will bring with Him all the souls of all those who died that are Christ own as those souls will be reunited with the new resurrected immortal glorified bodies. So by this our soul returns back to God and is reserved or kept by God like the waiting souls under the altar that are waiting to be avenged for their blood that was spilled for the sake of Christ who is our eternal life through the blood He sacrificed for all as the soul can never die and leaves this body when we die and returns back to God who made us a living soul housed in this fleshly body.
[/QUOTE]

Here's a more accurate translation of 1 Thess 4:14.


YLT 1 Thessalonians 4:14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

However, notice that this passage is about the resurrection, Jesus died and rose again. It's talking about the bodies coming out of the ground, not souls being brought from someplace with Jesus. God, with Jesus will lead those in the grave out of the grave.

You said, that the soul can never die. It can and it does. Isaiah said that Jesus gave His soul for sins.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(Isa. 53:10-12 KJV)

We know that it was Christ's death on the cross that was the sacrifice for sin. That was His life. His physical life. Christ gave His life for sins. We also have God prophesying through Ezekiel that the soul that sins shall die.

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 KJV)

We all know that people sin. We all know that people die.

 

[Butch5]

The idea of life after death came from the Greeks?
How does one explain that the Pharisees believed in life after death? How about the MacCabees....they also believed in life after death?

I didn't say that. I said the idea that the dead are alive came from the Greeks. The Pharisees believed in the Resurrection, not that there was some sort of disembodied being that existed between death and the Resurrection.

[/quote]Did Jesus believe in life after death?
He told the thief of the cross THIS VERY DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
Was Jesus also influenced by Greek Philosophy? If so, why should we believe ANYTHING He said?[/quote]



He believed in the Resurrection, not in a disembodied existence. You have poor translation of this verse.



43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)



Are you familiar with translator bias? It's in all translations. That's when one's belief influences their translation. When the original texts were written they didn't have any punctuation. The translators have added the punctuation based on their understanding of the text. So, the comma in this passage is placed where the translator thinks it should be. However, it could just as correctly be placed after the word To day.



43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)



You see, if we place the comma after the word To day, it has a completely different time frame. Now there is no implication of when the thief will be in Paradise, only that he will at some time.



Do you know what Paradise is? The Greek word means a garden. The paradise of God is the Garden of Eden. The tree of life is in the garden or paradise of Eden. Notice what Jesus said to John in Revelation.



7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)



Jesus was telling the thief that he would be in the Garden of God. What did the thief ask Jesus? Did he ask Jesus where he would be later that afternoon? No. Did he ask Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom? Yes. So Jesus' answer was related to His Kingdom, not where they'd be later that afternoon. The thief wanted to enter the Kingdom of God. That's what Jesus was addressing, not where they'd be later that afternoon.

Paul said that to be absent from the body...one is present with Jesus...was Paul also influenced by Greek Philosophy?

No, that's not what he said.



6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:6-8 KJV)



Notice that the word "is" is nowhere in that verse. He's not saying to be absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord. He's talking about two states of being, one in the body, the Church, and one with the Lord. The Greek word that is translated "at home", in the phrase, "at home in the body" means to be in one's country or with one's people. So, at home in the body means in the Church, among Christians. To be absent from the body would mean to be away from the church or away from Christians. Remember Paul often refers to the Church as the Body of Christ, hence the term, the body.



We know that Paul didn't believe in a state where people who were dead were somehow alive in some disembodied state. He wrote to the Corinthians who were grieving dead believers and said,



no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

(1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)



He told them that if there is no resurrection of the dead, then those believers who had died perished. He didn't say, don't worry, they're in Heaven with God. He didn't say they're with Jesus. He said, if there is no resurrection they were gone. The only hope Paul hands to the Corinthians is the Resurrection, not an existence between death and the Resurrection.



So Paul didn't believe that people who died were existing as some disembodied life forms

And what does gnosticism have to do with life after death?
Is this all they believed, or is there more to their story.

Gnosticism is the blending of Greek Philosophy and Christianity.

 

[Butch5]

Have you read Luke 16:19-31?
Are you aware that scholars believe this to be a TRUE STORY and NOT a parable?

What they may believe doesn't really matter. It's clearly a parable. All one has to do is look at the details of the parable to see that. Firstly, it's in a series of parables. Secondly, Jesus told it to the Pharisees who were deriding Him. Notice that Lazarus, the Rich Man, And Abraham, all have body parts, yet supposedly they had left their bodies by this point. The parable says that the Rich Man was in Hades, Hades is the grave. What goes in the grave? The body. The Rich Man is being tormented for what? Why is Lazarus in Abraham's bosom? We're not told that Lazarus was a believer. We're not told that the Rich Man was wicked. If the Rich Man was wicked why is he is Hades in the fire. Jesus said that the wicked would burn in Gehenna, not Hades.



The parable is a warning to the Pharisees. Why are we told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers? Why are we told that he was dressed in purple and fine linen? When the Rich Man wanted Lazarus to go and warn his brothers, why did Abraham say they have Moses and the Prophets? Why didn't he say they need to believe in Jesus? The answers to these questions will show what the parable is about.

There is nothing "inferred" with the above verses. They are clear as day.

They are called the dead because they have gone to be in a different world or dimension.

Could you please post some scripture that supports your view?
Could you tell me WHY I should believe Jesus...who came back from the dead as He is the FIRST....if what you say is true?
Scripture please.

Actually, they are inferred. Sometimes people take metaphors literally also. Also sometimes people take parables literal.



So, they are not dead? They're called the dead, not the "moved on". Dead means without life, yet this doctrine claims they are alive. How do you reconcile that with Scripture? The Scriptures says they're dead.



3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Eccl. 9:3-6 KJV)



2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:2-4 KJV)



18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You, As I do this day; The father shall make known Your truth to the children. (Isa. 38:18-19 NKJ)



For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Eccl. 9:5 KJV)



This is just a few passages. We see that the dead know nothing, their thoughts perish, their love, hatred and envy perish. They cannot praise God. The dead can't do any of these things but the living can and that's the contrast.

Our bodies are the same .....
We have a skeleton, a nerve system, a digestive system, blood, hair, eyes, nose, etc. Our bodies are different in only superficial ways.

My arms to not cause me to kill a person.
WHAT would cause me to kill someone?
Why would Manson do this and not me?
What cause this is what makes us be different,,,and it's not the body.

Find out the difference between THE COMPUTER
and the OPERATING SYSTEM.

We may have the same parts but they're not identical. We don't all look the same. Our brains are different. I explained this already. The influences we have affect how we act. The things that happen to us affect the way we act. There are lots of things that make us different. People change depending on the world around them.

I think you miss the point about the computer. Without the electricity it does nothing.

I agree with the above.
The only question is: The spirit is of God.
OK. So what happens to this spirit after we physically die?

As to man not being spirit...this is correct.
ONLY GOD IS SPIRIT...God Father and the Holy Spirit.

But we do have A SPIRIT, and IF it is from God...
IT WILL NEVER DIE.

We are made in the image of God.

Please don't reply with your beliefs,,,,but with replies to my questions.

Thanks.

The spirit is part of God and it returns to Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

You've written two very long posts B.
I find that it will be useless to continue this conversation.
What you believe has nothing to do with salvation, so you're free to believe what you will.

Just know that it is not biblical.
However, I think the horse is dead.



Blessings and keep studying Christianity because it does hold BELIEFS with which you are not in agreement.

 

[for_his_glory]

There's nothing in Scripture that says that the soul returns to God. Regarding Rev. 6:9, remember, Revelation is a book of symbolism. Jesus is portrayed as a Lamb with seven eyes that had been slain. We know that Jesus was person, not a lamb. We also know that He had two eyes, not seven. There is symbolism all through the book. So, the question becomes what do these souls symbolize? Why are they under the altar?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

When Christ returns He will bring with Him all the souls of all those who died that are Christ own as those souls will be reunited with the new resurrected immortal glorified bodies. So by this our soul returns back to God and is reserved or kept by God like the waiting souls under the altar that are waiting to be avenged for their blood that was spilled for the sake of Christ who is our eternal life through the blood He sacrificed for all as the soul can never die and leaves this body when we die and returns back to God who made us a living soul housed in this fleshly body.

Here's a more accurate translation of 1 Thess 4:14.


YLT 1 Thessalonians 4:14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

However, notice that this passage is about the resurrection, Jesus died and rose again. It's talking about the bodies coming out of the ground, not souls being brought from someplace with Jesus. God, with Jesus will lead those in the grave out of the grave.

You said, that the soul can never die. It can and it does. Isaiah said that Jesus gave His soul for sins.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(Isa. 53:10-12 KJV)

We know that it was Christ's death on the cross that was the sacrifice for sin. That was His life. His physical life. Christ gave His life for sins. We also have God prophesying through Ezekiel that the soul that sins shall die.

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 KJV)

We all know that people sin. We all know that people die.
[/QUOTE]

Revelation is as symbolic as it is literal so explain then why when John saw Jesus open the fifth seal the angel gave John a vision of the souls under the altar. The souls are very specific in that verse and different than the breath/spirit that also goes back to God who gave it.

Those who are asleep that are Christ own are still in their graves as the flesh is rotting away back to the dust of the ground as no one that has ever died has ascended up to heaven, John 3:13. When Christ returns and we are raised from our grave it is not the physical body that will rise up as it no longer exist. It will be a new glorified body that will be incorruptible and immortal as we know not what we will look like other than we will look like Christ in His glorified body, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 John 3:2.

The soul that sins will die because there is no eternal life with the Father to those who do not walk in His statures as those souls have been judged and will be cast into the lake of fire as being dead to God.