The mess that OSAS theology made

[SputnikBoy]

Sorry Sputnik,
The sentence that I posted that said that you were doctrinly mixed up and must be a church member and not born again, was a poorly constructed sentence. The intent of the sentence was that going to a church without being born again is the main cause for error in doctrine, and was not meant as a down right claim that you were not born again. I apologize for the statement.
Michael

That's okay, Solo ...apology accepted.

 

[Jay T]

Ooookay and when does our Lord Jesus Christ come into this?

And if you think that if you commit a small sin means that you will die then we're all in trouble.

Unbelievable!

Had some great test been appointed Adam, then those whose hearts incline to evil would have excused themselves by saying, "This is a trivial matter, and God is not so particular about little things."

And there would be continual transgression in things looked upon as small, and which pass unrebuked among men.
But the Lord has made it evident that sin in any degree is offensive to Him.

To Eve it seemed a small thing to disobey God by tasting the fruit of the forbidden tree, and to tempt her husband also to transgress; but their sin opened the floodgates of woe upon the world.

Who can know, in the moment of temptation, the terrible consequences that will result from one wrong step?

Many who teach that the law of God is not binding upon man, urge that it is impossible for him to obey its precepts.

But if this were true, why did Adam suffer the penalty of transgression?

The sin of our first parents brought guilt and sorrow upon the world, and had it not been for the goodness and mercy of God, would have plunged the race into hopeless despair.


Let none deceive themselves.

"The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23.

The law of God can no more be transgressed with impunity now than when sentence was pronounced upon the father of mankind.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

And not one mention of Jesus in that! Not one!

Why did he die again? Oh that's right, Jesus doesn't enter into the equation because of Adam's trivial disobedience all are destined for hell and because of Christ's trivial obedience all are still destined for hell because of their sin that Christ obviously didn't take with him on the cross cos ...well...he just doesn't matter to Christians anymore I suspect!

Oh well...I'm glad I'm not THAT kind of Christian then ;)

Good luck at getting yourself to heaven their Jay T - better hope you have remembered EVERY SINGLE ITTY BITTY sin you've committed and repented from it all or you're doomed my friend! Good luck buddy

 

[Solo]

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19

Galatians 3:6-18
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted F4 to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, F5 yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Galatians 3:6-18

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:1-11

 

[John the Baptist]

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19

*****
John here: what are you saying?? Surely you know that the only way that these ones are in heaven, is by record books? The wicked lost ones are D-E-A-D and are judged by their accurate recorded record books. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. Rev. states that they are standing? But how do dead men stand? Only by record books.

And the below verses? What are you saying that these mean??? Do you understand where Christ is at the present time, on the other side of the Vail that was rent making the way from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place? What was inside the earthly Most Holy Place, and was Eternally inside of the Great Original? Hebrews 13:20 You might just catch some very interesting Truths by this study? See Psalms 77:13

(the larger print is for me to see better :wink: getting old!)
*****
Galatians 3:6-18
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted F4 to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, F5 yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Galatians 3:6-18

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:1-11

 

[Klee shay]

Are we to believe that your new nature and the fact that the law is written on your heart has you obedient to the commandments of God? If so, why then don't you like the word 'follow' if that is what you're actively doing anyway? Perhaps I'm just thick.

Not thick - just blindsighted to your evaluation of people's faith. People are going to believe in the Lord no matter if you understand them properly or not. It is Christ who understands them and the direction he takes them.

Are you perfect Sput? Are you obedient to the commandments of God - all of them, every day; and your heart is pure, meak and forgiving in doing God's will?

It's kind of silly to point sins out at people and not lay claim to any yourself - lest you should boast of God's works in you, are more perfected? You're a sinner and I'm a sinner Sput and that's precisely why we need a Saviour. That is where we will find unity in Christ.

If you want to start comparing my brand of Jesus to yours'; you will only find a trap laid for you by the enemy. Don't fall into it. He would just love you to do that.

 

[Solo]

Hey John, Matthew 5:19 says that if you break the least commandment and teach others to break the least commandment you will be in heaven. What gives with that.

 

[Vic C.]

... Oh well...I'm glad I'm not THAT kind of Christian then ;)

Good luck at getting yourself to heaven their Jay T - better hope you have remembered EVERY SINGLE ITTY BITTY sin you've committed and repented from it all or you're doomed my friend! Good luck buddy

At this point, I usually remind the poster of The Parable of the Pharisee, and the Publican...

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hey John, Matthew 5:19 says that if you break the least commandment and teach others to break the least commandment you will be in heaven. What gives with that.

*****
Do you read posts?? Here is a paragraph taken from my post, with perhaps a highlight or two! :wink:

John here: what are you saying?? Surely you know that the only way that these ones are in heaven, is by record books? The wicked lost ones are D-E-A-D and are judged by their accurate recorded record books. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. Rev. states that they are standing? But how do dead men stand? Only by record books. Yet, take note of your verse? Christ states that they will be judged the LEAST! Check Christ's Word of Luke 12:47-48.

Now read what Revelation 20:12 says! These are D-E-A-D & they did not die in the Hebrews 11:13 FAITH.

OK: They STAND only as in the record books, and then they DIE THE SECOND DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. verse 14, that is Revelation 20:14 as above. 'and the dead are judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.'

All the wicked are dead until after the 1000 years. See 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 for who will have a part in this executional part of this judgement!

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="Merry Menagerie":e5d37][As long as you lack the understanding of all this - then you will always think that OSAS theology is false and of the devil.

satan is the one who STARTED the OSAS thing back in Genesis 3:4.[/quote:e5d37]

****
True! Yet, there is nothing new the God of the universe says! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15.
And 'inspiration' bears this out, not only in Genesis 3:4, but in 2 Peter 2:19 as well, yet, 2 Peter 2:19-22 tells the whole story. "While they promise them LIBERTY, ..."
---John

 

[Solo]

Hey John, Matthew 5:19 says that if you break the least commandment and teach others to break the least commandment you will be in heaven. What gives with that.

*****
Do you read posts?? Here is a paragraph taken from my post, with perhaps a highlight or two! :wink:

John here: what are you saying?? Surely you know that the only way that these ones are in heaven, is by record books? The wicked lost ones are D-E-A-D and are judged by their accurate recorded record books. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. Rev. states that they are standing? But how do dead men stand? Only by record books. Yet, take note of your verse? Christ states that they will be judged the LEAST! Check Christ's Word of Luke 12:47-48.

Now read what Revelation 20:12 says! These are D-E-A-D & they did not die in the Hebrews 11:13 FAITH.

OK: They STAND only as in the record books, and then they DIE THE SECOND DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. verse 14, that is Revelation 20:14 as above. 'and the dead are judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.'

All the wicked are dead until after the 1000 years. See 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 for who will have a part in this executional part of this judgement!

John,
You are not making any sense.
I guess your perception is on something entirely different than the scripture I posted.
When you quit being afraid of the truth of God's Word, you can investigate more fully into the truth that God has for you. Try reading the New Testament for a change. There is a lot of good stuff in there.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hey John, Matthew 5:19 says that if you break the least commandment and teach others to break the least commandment you will be in heaven. What gives with that.

*****
Do you read posts?? Here is a paragraph taken from my post, with perhaps a highlight or two! :wink:

John here: what are you saying?? Surely you know that the only way that these ones are in heaven, is by record books? The wicked lost ones are D-E-A-D and are judged by their accurate recorded record books. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. Rev. states that they are standing? But how do dead men stand? Only by record books. Yet, take note of your verse? Christ states that they will be judged the LEAST! Check Christ's Word of Luke 12:47-48.

Now read what Revelation 20:12 says! These are D-E-A-D & they did not die in the Hebrews 11:13 FAITH.

OK: They STAND only as in the record books, and then they DIE THE SECOND DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. verse 14, that is Revelation 20:14 as above. 'and the dead are judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.'

All the wicked are dead until after the 1000 years. See 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 for who will have a part in this executional part of this judgement!

John,
You are not making any sense.
I guess your perception is on something entirely different than the scripture I posted.
When you quit being afraid of the truth of God's Word, you can investigate more fully into the truth that God has for you. Try reading the New Testament for a change. There is a lot of good stuff in there.

_________
There are 5 of 6 (I think?) verses in the above post from the New Testament. :o
And it just seems that Christ's Matthew 4:4 verse is a pretty good.. 'stuff' also? Or His Word as seen in 2 Timothy 3:16?

And you say, "When you quit being afraid of the Truth of God's Word,.."???" What kind of a judgement call is that??? :
---John

 

[farley]

Solo,

Regarding your references to 1 John 3:8-10 and Romans 7:14-25, I'm still seeing conflicts.

I realize that you had to respond, and re-respond, over and over again, because of my denseness on this matter, but I'm still in a fog here.

After much re-studying of 1 John 3:8-10, it seems, to me, that you MAY be saying that each believer, during times of strength - follows the spirit, and during times of weakness - follows the flesh. When a believer dies, the sin laden body is left behind, leaving only one's obedient spirit which WAS saved, and will always BE saved.

Am I even kinda close here, or not.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Regarding your references to 1 John 3:9-10 and Romans 7:14-25, I'm still seeing conflicts.

I realize that you had to respond, and re-respond, over and over again, because of my denseness on this matter, but I'm still in a fog here.

After much re-studying of 1 John 3:9-10, it seems, to me, that you MAY be saying that each believer, during times of strength - follows the spirit, and during times of weakness - follows the flesh. When a believer dies, the sin laden body is left behind, leaving only one's obedient spirit which WAS saved, and will always BE saved.

Am I even kinda close here, or not.

In Christ,

farley

farley,

You are very close in that the old flesh that is sold under sin will be resurrected or changed at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. So the born of God believer will forever be with God. The corrupt, mortal flesh will be resurrected or changed into an incorrupt, immortal body just as Jesus Christ has.

As far as having times of strength or weakness, I think it may be more of a matter of choosing right and wrong. When a believer is in the Word, praying unceasingly, fellowshipping with his Lord and Savior daily, moment by moment, the choice between right and wrong is easier to be made in the right Word of God way. The more one has the Word of God transformation of ones mind instead of being conformed to the world, the easier it is to make the right choices. Walking in the Spirit is being obedient to God, whereby walking in the flesh is being obedient to yourself.

Thanks,

Michael

 

[Solo]

And you say, "When you quit being afraid of the Truth of God's Word,.."???" What kind of a judgement call is that??? :
---John

Just checkin' to see if you are readin' my posts, friend. :D

 

[John the Baptist]

And you say, "When you quit being afraid of the Truth of God's Word,.."???" What kind of a judgement call is that??? :
---John

Just checkin' to see if you are readin' my posts, friend. :D

*********
John here:
I am just waiting to see if you believe Christ's Word of Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16's Truth that 'all' scripture [is profitable] for doctrine, reproof & correction yet, is all??? Both verses are your new covenant verses, it states that your doctrine is to need all scripture for testing!!! It sure is evidence that one who was Born Again was 'desiring' to do this??? (see Genesis 4:7?) And you never have any O.T. scripture for OSAS verification ever seen. (not to mention the New Testament of Hebrews 6:6 & 2 Peter 2:19-22 'INSPIRATION')

"When you quit being afraid of the Truth of God's Word" then you will finally be, perhaps Born Again (and if accepted by you) and then you can claim the Master's Words.. "IT IS WRITTEN. MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD."

So: the bottom line is? One needs not be afraid to MATURE (grow up! Hebrews 5:11-13 :fadein to the OBEDIENCE of the Everlasting Gospel of the Word of God. And then maybe Acts 5:32 will be seen???

 

[Jay T]

And not one mention of Jesus in that! Not one!

Good luck at getting yourself to heaven their Jay T - better hope you have remembered EVERY SINGLE ITTY BITTY sin you've committed and repented from it all or you're doomed my friend! Good luck buddy

OK, let's talk about what Jesus said, as a 'condition', to having eternal life, shall we ?
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And, in Revelation 22:14....we find the Bible confirms exactly what He said.....
Revelation 22:14 "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".

Now, we don't base our whole theology on just these few Bible verses, as we must take into consideration, 'EVERYTHING' else, written in scripture.

But, lets' not ignore what Jesus did say either.

 

[Jay T]

[If you want to start comparing my brand of Jesus to yours'; you will only find a trap laid for you by the enemy. Don't fall into it. He would just love you to do that.

There are only to ways to go in this great controversy between satan and Christ.

Satan wants people to break any or all the 10 commandments (Revelation 12:17).

Jesus Christ wants people to obey every single one of them, and He has promised to help us, in doing so (Romans 10:4).

 

[Klee shay]

Jesus Christ wants people to obey every single one of them, and He has promised to help us, in doing so

Yes and he helps us by showing the value of LOVING God and each other as we LOVE ourselves. This is why the two greatest commands Christ gave us to follow were not any of the ten commandments.

He did this because this is how he lived and how he portrayed his father's will. God loves us and he wants us to love him in return and each other. When we can do this - THEN WE CAN OBEY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS through the Spirit and truth Christ lived.

You must love God in order to obey him. You must love your neighbour if you are to resist hate and abomination to the creation of life. By simply teaching obedience to the ten commandments you miss the order Christ gave us to ensure His success. The enemy loves people to show their love for God through their obedience to merely the ten commandments; for then they go into spiritual warfare against him unprepared. They aren't using love to defeat him; they are using obedience to prove their love to God. What an easy snare.

Satan wants people to break any or all the 10 commandments (Revelation 12:17).

Where is the challenge in that for someone as cunning and as lethal as Satan? Why human flesh will guarantee that at some point; someone will break at least one of the ten commandments. The challenge for the enemy is to attack God's love - for that is the Lord's stronghold. If he can take the focus off God's love and put the responsibility back onto the shoulders of man (as he did to Adam) to be equal to God's understanding; then we will inevitably fail and fall away from the stronghold.

In this vessel of flesh we cannot possibly fathom the love of God or the understanding of God. The only example we have to go by is that of a Son who loved his Father so much he was willing to be crucified by the enemy; for all the religious world to see and participate in. Every day we witness that sacrifice; and mankind will for the rest of our numbered days. It was done in love, for love; to show the goodness and forgiveness of God to his children.

That is the enemy's target! The only way he can ensure a falling away from God is if he can take the focus off the love Christ cautioned us to maintain. I believe the only way we can surely follow any of the ten commandments, is to make sure we love God above all else and love each other as we love ourselves. Which also means we have to let Christ remind us of how to love oursleves sometimes too - for even the enemy can plague us with self doubt.

OSAS is about the possibility of God's love to surpass the stronghold of the enemy; in a world of unrighteous activities. Christ saves despite the snares the enemy would led us into believing we brought upon ourselves. If we are to escape, we must first believe in the two greatest commandments of all others involving *LOVE*.

Is it in the enemy's interests for God's believers to recognise that however? :wink:

 

[SputnikBoy]

But, surely our love for God would be displayed by the keeping of the first four commandments? How could it not be? I simply cannot understand the "head acknowledgement of loving God versus the physical action acknowledgement of loving God" sort of mentality we have on this thread. What IS wrong in actually displaying our love for God to others by our actions? Do you feel that I'm just not catching on because I don't have the Spirit?