The mess that OSAS theology made

[Solo]

Solo,

You stated...

Since you have said in this post that if one is born of God, born again, then one can never be unborn again, then how does one that is born again continue to sin if John 3:9-10 is true?

I was thinking that the ESV offered the perspective that a believers sins where more apt to be sporatic, as one's 'new man' gained control over his 'old man' ways., rather than 'wide-open' same sinning as before being 'born again'.

I'm not trying to say that this take is 100% accurate, but, it makes more sense to me than your view. In any event, I see problems with your view, because this would mean: 1 Tim. 4:1; James 5:19-20; Rev. 3:5, and many others are wrong! Please, explain these passages away!

I feel that the proper interpretation of 1 John 3:9-10 is yet to be revealed, but surely my view conflicts with less scripture than yours.

Do you not agree, as Paul says in Romans 7, that as long as our spirit lives in a fleshly body, it will be tempted and deceived by evil?

BTW, I wouldn't mind seeing the scripture that supports your many references to being "unborn" and sins that Christ's sacrifice on the cross fails to cover.

In Christ,

farley

Tell me what 1 John 3:9-10 means?

(9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
(10) By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:9-10 ESV

Notice that it says in your selected version that [/B]NO ONE BORN OF GOD MAKES A PRACTICE OF SINNING, FOR GOD'S SEED ABIDES IN HIM, AND HE CANNOT KEEP ON SINNING BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD. [/B]


The flesh will die and the new creature will live. The born of God new creature in Christ Jesus will not sin nor will he/she die; but the flesh which is sold under sin will die or be changed when Jesus returns. Why is the born again concept so difficult to understand? Because you want to be in control of your eternal destiny instead of trusting in Jesus Christ. A man without being born of God has no new creature to live in the eternal age with Jesus, but only those who have been born again have the unconditional promise of being saved.

Those who think that they are saved and have not been born of God will perish. Those who have been born of God will continue in their life changing belief in Jesus Christ. Those who don't continue in their walk with Jesus Christ have not been born again.

 

[farley]

Solo,

You are about to drive me crazy over this.

I just don't SEE what you are saying!

It seems like you are responding to my posts with fresh insight. But, as I read it, it seems like all that I'm seeing is more of the same thing that you've posted before.

You must be saying that you, Solo, as a born again believer "do not sin". And, that you have not sinned since the instant that you, Solo, were born again!

But, we both know that believers DO continue to sin. You keep emphasizing the passage that says believers DON'T continue to sin.

You must be saying that no one is born again, because everyone sins!

farley

 

[Solo]

Solo,

You are about to drive me crazy over this.

I just don't SEE what you are saying!

It seems like you are responding to my posts with fresh insight. But, as I read it, it seems like all that I'm seeing is more of the same thing that you've posted before.

You must be saying that you, Solo, as a born again believer "do not sin". And, that you have not sinned since the instant that you, Solo, were born again!

But, we both know that believers DO continue to sin. You keep emphasizing the passage that says believers DON'T continue to sin.

You must be saying that no one is born again, because everyone sins!

farley

The born again part of the person is not flesh and it cannot sin. The flesh which is born of sinful man is not born of God and does sin. When a person walks in the Spirit he/she does not sin; when a person walks in the flesh he/she sins. Those that are born again can walk in the Spirit or the Flesh; it is dependent upon what a person walks in as to whether they sin or not. If one walks in the flesh, one fulfills the lusts of the flesh; when one walks in the Spirit, one fulfills the desire of the Spirit obeying God. The flesh will be destroyed at death to be resurrected incorrupt and immortal, while the Spirit goes to be with God. Those who are not born again do not have a portion of their being that can not sin. They are not redeemed, nor will they be resurrected with an incorrupt, immortal body as those that are born of God, born again, children of God.


Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7


What does 1 John 3:9-10 say?

It says that No one born of God sins KJV(makes a practice of sinning ESV), for God abides in him, and he cannot sin KJV (keeps on sinning ESV) because he is born of God. The verse of scripture as translated by the ESV is in error from my perspective, as Jesus was born of God, and Jesus did not sin for he could not sin since he was born of God.


9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:9-10 ESV

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10 KJV

Does the corrupt, mortal flesh enter into the Kingdom of God? NO.
Does the incorrupt, immortal born of God New Creature enter into the Kingdom of God? YES. According to Jesus as recorded in John 3, those that are born of the flesh and the Spirit will enter into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Guest]

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.


Lets look at that verse closely, just as prophecies are grabbed out of the Tanach and used to fit the NT, lets take this verse and do the samething. According to this scripture, nobidy is a bor of God, because everybody sins and continues to sin. Why is this verse any different that John 3:16, Romans 8:1, John 14:6, and all the other very popular quoted verses in the biblr by christians, why is a verse that isn;t so easy to explain anyway, kept out of the mouth of the 21 century christian. If all scripture is god breathed, and its all the same, no one verse more important than another, then lets use some hard verses.

Matthew 5:13 - teaches that one can lose grace with God
Matthew 5:17 - jesus came to uphold the law, but paul ended the law and started grace
matthew 5:22 - jesus teaches that the christian will be judged and may even go to hell
matthew 5:29-30 Jesus teaches to cut off body parts
matthew 5:39 - Jesus said give to the one who slaps
matthew 5:42 - Jesus teaches to give to anyone who asks

 

[Solo]

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.


Lets look at that verse closely, just as prophecies are grabbed out of the Tanach and used to fit the NT, lets take this verse and do the samething. According to this scripture, nobidy is a bor of God, because everybody sins and continues to sin. Why is this verse any different that John 3:16, Romans 8:1, John 14:6, and all the other very popular quoted verses in the biblr by christians, why is a verse that isn;t so easy to explain anyway, kept out of the mouth of the 21 century christian. If all scripture is god breathed, and its all the same, no one verse more important than another, then lets use some hard verses.

Matthew 5:13 - teaches that one can lose grace with God
The consequences of man walking in the flesh as a believer is such to be trodden under foot of men because he is walking in his own power. He is cast out of being salt of the earth. It says nothing about being cast out of the kingdom of God.
Matthew 5:17 - jesus came to uphold the law, but paul ended the law and started grace
Jesus fulfilled the law by becoming the righteousness for all sinners that have faith. Where the law was unable to save men, the covenant of grace through Jesus Christ does therefore He fulfilled the righteousness of God.
matthew 5:22 - jesus teaches that the christian will be judged and may even go to hell
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:3-5
matthew 5:29-30 Jesus teaches to cut off body parts
If ones eye or hand cause one to live carnally opposed to the truth of God, keeping one from being born again, then figurativly remove eye or hand so that the body parts may be separated but the whole body will not be separated from God.
matthew 5:39 - Jesus said give to the one who slaps
Don't slap another on the cheek to repay evil for evil, but instead live with the mind of Christ Jesus knowing that the reward for building one's spiritual house on the foundation of Jesus is so much more rewarding.
matthew 5:42 - Jesus teaches to give to anyone who asks
All should believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior since it is he who died on the cross and was resurrected so that all who are born of God can be resurrected into a immortal, incorruptible creature.

 

[farley]

Well, Solo,

Thank you for going the extra mile with me...and for me!

I'm thinking that I finally see what you've been saying. However, I'm so mentally exhausted right now, I'm afraid to rely on the power of my own brain to properly evaluate what I'm reading.

The main hitch that I see remaining, is when I try comparing Paul, in Romans 7, to those born of God in 1 John 3:9-10. Paul, using himself as an example, shows us that we are a combination of flesh and spirit, constantly being pulled this way and that.

But, John says that we are either a child of God, or a child of the devil, thus one is born again, and NEVER sins, or if one EVER sins, one is not born again.

I must still be missing something.

But, I'm too tired to wrestle with this any more tonight.

I'm going to bed.

Thanks again, Solo, in Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

Well, Solo,

Thank you for going the extra mile with me...and for me!

I'm thinking that I finally see what you've been saying. However, I'm so mentally exhausted right now, I'm afraid to rely on the power of my own brain to properly evaluate what I'm reading.

The main hitch that I see remaining, is when I try comparing Paul, in Romans 7, to those born of God in 1 John 3:9-10. Paul, using himself as an example, shows us that we are a combination of flesh and spirit, constantly being pulled this way and that.

But, John says that we are either a child of God, or a child of the devil, thus one is born again, and NEVER sins, or if one EVER sins, one is not born again.

I must still be missing something.

But, I'm too tired to wrestle with this any more tonight.

I'm going to bed.

Thanks again, Solo, in Christ,

farley

Good night farley,
May God watch over you tonight and keep you from evil. May he bless you entire weekend with his love and grace.

Read the entire book of 1 John prayerfully, and meditate upon it with God leading your understanding. Take your time and read it at the Lord's pace, and ask him any and all questions that come to your mind. If you have any questions, ask God and he will answer you in his timing. Make sure that you keep in mind that Jesus was sinless as he dwelt in the flesh, and that he was bodily resurrected, and bodily ascended into heaven in an immortal, uncorruptible body just as we will have one day; sinless and in his perfection with his righteousness imputed to us.
Thanks for you polite and great posts,
Michael

 

[Guest]

Don't read and pray over it, you have read it right Farley. Just read the verse for what it says, it totaly contradicts Romans 7. 1 John contradicts the whole NT theology about being born of God and being a christian.

Your replies to the above scriptures are used so figuratively. If you want to use verses so loosely, then get down on your knees and hail Mary mother of God full of grace. Then accept you will go to purgatory after you die to be purged of your sins, that the Eucharist is actually Jesus body and blood. Mary never had any other children and thus remained a virgin forever, she never sinned either and also ascended into heaven.

Know the verses that catholics use for there beliefs are wrong and can't be used that way, right Solo. Only the 21 century way is right. Did you know the leader of the protestant movement believed in purgatory for 13 years after he protested the catholic church, he died still believing that Mary was to venerated and held to a high standard and place. This same guy who found the protestant movement also cursed Jews and said what are we to do with this dammed race. What a ethical christian he was. Either Martin Luther was exposed to a false God and everything he teaches is lies, or everything from the 4th century A.D to 1515 is garbage. Every person in 1,000 was not a christian according to Martin Luther and the 21 century christian.

 

[Jay T]

I wonder why OSAS theology built up

All I know is that many church goers who believe this theology are luke warm Christians. They don't care about their walk with the Lord: they believe they are saved no matter what they do or don't do.

My separated husband and his family have been forever church goers without much of fruit of christianity.

My husband and his family are not a unique example. I am sure most of you know exactly what I am talking about.

It's mind boggling to me that the giving of false sense of security doesn't bother OSAS supporters.

If what we say mislead fellow believer, we have to stop.

It must be remembered that satan is at war...with God's commandments, and the people who keep them out of love and loyalty to HIM (Revelation 12:17).

The OSAS theology is the very same tactic satan used to defeat Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4).
The very idea satan wants people to have, is...."you can disobey God, and still have eternal life" !

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I wonder why OSAS theology built up

All I know is that many church goers who believe this theology are luke warm Christians. They don't care about their walk with the Lord: they believe they are saved no matter what they do or don't do.

My separated husband and his family have been forever church goers without much of fruit of christianity.

My husband and his family are not a unique example. I am sure most of you know exactly what I am talking about.

It's mind boggling to me that the giving of false sense of security doesn't bother OSAS supporters.

If what we say mislead fellow believer, we have to stop.

It must be remembered that satan is at war...with God's commandments, and the people who keep them out of love and loyalty to HIM (Revelation 12:17).

The OSAS theology is the very same tactic satan used to defeat Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4).
The very idea satan wants people to have, is...."you can disobey God, and still have eternal life" !

But that's not the theology. The obedience that I walk in is Christ's obedience in me. The fact that the commandments are fulfilled in me - is Christ's doing...not mine. I walk in HIS righeousness and not my own. The law is written on my heart - its in my new nature now...I don't have to FOLLOW anything because it's written in my nature....it's what I do because I'm in Christ - therefore the law is fulfilled.

The only reason why you think the OSAS theology is of the devil is because you don't undestand it. Not only do you not understand it but you also do not understand why we were regenerated and what it means to be a new creation. You also don't understand the significance of being in Christ and having the power of the Holy Spirit. You do not understand out new nature.

As long as you lack the understanding of all this - then you will always think that OSAS theology is false and of the devil.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sorry if I appear to be 'big noting' myself here. It's just that there are two threads pertaining to the same topic. So, I'm posting here what I also posted on the other thread since I believe that it's pertinent to the issue.

AV Bunyan: If a person thinks they can really lose it then they most likely don't have 'it'.

Or, alternatively, if a person really believes they CAN'T lose it then they may just as likely not have 'it' either, perhaps? I remember a practicing prostitute on the Phil Donahue Show some years back coming up with the OSAS tag. She really believed what she was saying. Was she right or wrong?

What I see problematic is the terminology itself. 'Once Saved - Always Saved' sends a false message to the 'not so bright' of which there are many. The promoting of this doctrine in the manner of 'one can live like the devil as long as one gives regular lip service' is irresponsible at best and destructive at worst. This silly misrepresentation of OSAS is possibly leading many people astray because they don't know any better.

So many of the supporters of OSAS seem to be more absorbed in 'self' than they are on the well-being of others. So, if the 'more scholarly' among us can look beyond themselves for a few seconds ...just think about it from the other person's perspective. Caution is required when promoting this man-made term (OSAS) as opposed to one's using it with such irresponsible abandon.

 

[John the Baptist]

As long as you lack the understanding of all this - then you will always think that OSAS theology is false and of the devil.
_________________

Well then, you tell the universe in the heavenly record books, what 2 Peter 2:19-22 was 'inspired' by the Holy Spirit to be saying??
And verse 19 sounds exactly like what OSAS state, that one can never fall from grace. And not only that, but they also say that the Holy Spirits inspiration in these verses are not truth! Dangerous indeed! Hebrews 6:6

Now: You say, 'As long as you lack understanding of all this-then you will..' OK, it is for you to straighten my understanding out with bible 'inspired' facts! See Luke 12:47-48

---John

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Jay T":68729]

I wonder why OSAS theology built up

All I know is that many church goers who believe this theology are luke warm Christians. They don't care about their walk with the Lord: they believe they are saved no matter what they do or don't do.

My separated husband and his family have been forever church goers without much of fruit of christianity.

My husband and his family are not a unique example. I am sure most of you know exactly what I am talking about.

It's mind boggling to me that the giving of false sense of security doesn't bother OSAS supporters.

If what we say mislead fellow believer, we have to stop.

It must be remembered that satan is at war...with God's commandments, and the people who keep them out of love and loyalty to HIM (Revelation 12:17).

The OSAS theology is the very same tactic satan used to defeat Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4).
The very idea satan wants people to have, is...."you can disobey God, and still have eternal life" !

But that's not the theology. The obedience that I walk in is Christ's obedience in me. The fact that the commandments are fulfilled in me - is Christ's doing...not mine. I walk in HIS righeousness and not my own. The law is written on my heart - its in my new nature now...I don't have to FOLLOW anything because it's written in my nature....it's what I do because I'm in Christ - therefore the law is fulfilled.

The only reason why you think the OSAS theology is of the devil is because you don't undestand it. Not only do you not understand it but you also do not understand why we were regenerated and what it means to be a new creation. You also don't understand the significance of being in Christ and having the power of the Holy Spirit. You do not understand out new nature.

As long as you lack the understanding of all this - then you will always think that OSAS theology is false and of the devil.

I wish we could pin you folks down on this issue once and for all. So, I'll simply ask a question in the hope of getting a simple answer. Are we to believe that your new nature and the fact that the law is written on your heart has you obedient to the commandments of God? If so, why then don't you like the word 'follow' if that is what you're actively doing anyway? Perhaps I'm just thick.

Incidentally, the 'law in their hearts' is not a New Covenant doctrine. It IS found elsewhere in the OT. Try Isaiah 51:7. And, the Sabbath-command seems to be included in 'the heart' doctrine (Isaiah 58:13-14). And THAT one is the problematic one to begin with, isn't it?[/quote:68729]

 

[John the Baptist]

Incidentally, the 'law in their hearts' is not a New Covenant doctrine. It IS found elsewhere in the OT. Try Isaiah 51:7. And, the Sabbath-command seems to be included in 'the heart' doctrine (Isaiah 58:13-14). And THAT one is the problematic one to begin with, isn't it?

*****
But surely you know that for the "law to be written in the heart" necessitated the New Birth? ---John

 

[Solo]

I wonder why OSAS theology built up

All I know is that many church goers who believe this theology are luke warm Christians. They don't care about their walk with the Lord: they believe they are saved no matter what they do or don't do.

My separated husband and his family have been forever church goers without much of fruit of christianity.

My husband and his family are not a unique example. I am sure most of you know exactly what I am talking about.

It's mind boggling to me that the giving of false sense of security doesn't bother OSAS supporters.

If what we say mislead fellow believer, we have to stop.

It must be remembered that satan is at war...with God's commandments, and the people who keep them out of love and loyalty to HIM (Revelation 12:17).

The OSAS theology is the very same tactic satan used to defeat Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4).
The very idea satan wants people to have, is...."you can disobey God, and still have eternal life" !

What is sad is that no one of the "OSIE" (Once Saved Isn't Enough) crowd never evaluates what the born of God experience is. Jesus said that those that were born of the flesh and the Spirit would enter the Kingdom of heaven. To say that this process is of satan is the same stance that the Pharisees took when they accused Jesus of having the power of Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

God's commandment to Adam and Eve was one commandment; not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have ten commandments, they had one. Once they broke the one commandment, all knowledge of evil was loosed.

The power of satan lies in unbelief and doubt that what God says is true. God said that believers were sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. God said that one had to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. Why would anyone doubt that God can seal his from evil forever? Why would God die on the cross for sinners, only to let sinners be unborn again?

Did King David ever disobey God? Have you ever disobeyed God? What part of a believer disobeys God, the flesh or the Spirit? No one from the OSIE crowd can comment on what it means to be born again, why not?
Why does the OSIE crowd ignore the fact that God is able to do what he says.

 

[Solo]

Sorry if I appear to be 'big noting' myself here. It's just that there are two threads pertaining to the same topic. So, I'm posting here what I also posted on the other thread since I believe that it's pertinent to the issue.

AV Bunyan: If a person thinks they can really lose it then they most likely don't have 'it'.

Or, alternatively, if a person really believes they CAN'T lose it then they may just as likely not have 'it' either, perhaps? I remember a practicing prostitute on the Phil Donahue Show some years back coming up with the OSAS tag. She really believed what she was saying. Was she right or wrong?

What I see problematic is the terminology itself. 'Once Saved - Always Saved' sends a false message to the 'not so bright' of which there are many. The promoting of this doctrine in the manner of 'one can live like the devil as long as one gives regular lip service' is irresponsible at best and destructive at worst. This silly misrepresentation of OSAS is possibly leading many people astray because they don't know any better.

So many of the supporters of OSAS seem to be more absorbed in 'self' than they are on the well-being of others. So, if the 'more scholarly' among us can look beyond themselves for a few seconds ...just think about it from the other person's perspective. Caution is required when promoting this man-made term (OSAS) as opposed to one's using it with such irresponsible abandon.

Read the Bible for truth and understand the born of God, born again process. It is not dependent upon man, but is solely dependent upon God. If your God is not powerful enough, you will be lost and on your way to hell. My God promised me that if I was born again, I woule enter the Kingdom of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

 

[John the Baptist]

What is needed is the Word of Christ! Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16, and this is all inclusive! not mans talk. :
---John

 

[Solo]

I wish we could pin you folks down on this issue once and for all. So, I'll simply ask a question in the hope of getting a simple answer. Are we to believe that your new nature and the fact that the law is written on your heart has you obedient to the commandments of God? If so, why then don't you like the word 'follow' if that is what you're actively doing anyway? Perhaps I'm just thick.

Incidentally, the 'law in their hearts' is not a New Covenant doctrine. It IS found elsewhere in the OT. Try Isaiah 51:7. And, the Sabbath-command seems to be included in 'the heart' doctrine (Isaiah 58:13-14). And THAT one is the problematic one to begin with, isn't it?

If Jacob is your father, knock yourself out one day a week.

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. Isaiah 58:13-14

If God is your father, then love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength all seven days of the week, ceasing from doing your own pleasure, delighting in the Lord, honoring him doing all things his way, not seeking your own pleasure or speaking your own words, but follow Jesus as he was about the business of his Father every day of the week.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

 

[Solo]

Incidentally, the 'law in their hearts' is not a New Covenant doctrine. It IS found elsewhere in the OT. Try Isaiah 51:7. And, the Sabbath-command seems to be included in 'the heart' doctrine (Isaiah 58:13-14). And THAT one is the problematic one to begin with, isn't it?

*****
But surely you know that for the "law to be written in the heart" necessitated the New Birth? ---John

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:25-28

 

[Merry Menagerie]

As long as you lack the understanding of all this - then you will always think that OSAS theology is false and of the devil.
_________________

Well then, you tell the universe in the heavenly record books, what 2 Peter 2:19-22 was 'inspired' by the Holy Spirit to be saying??
And verse 19 sounds exactly like what OSAS state, that one can never fall from grace. And not only that, but they also say that the Holy Spirits inspiration in these verses are not truth! Dangerous indeed! Hebrews 6:6

Now: You say, 'As long as you lack understanding of all this-then you will..' OK, it is for you to straighten my understanding out with bible 'inspired' facts! See Luke 12:47-48

---John

Again you do not understand the theology. Those verses you quote fit nice and neatly in the 'preservation of the saints' doctrine.

It is dangerous to not take ALL THE BIBLE as doctrine and leave out other bits. Basically by you saying that those scriptures contradict the OSAS doctrine - you are calling God a liar. I, on the other hand, believe that those scriptures support the basis of OSAS. In fact there is not one scripture that you can throw me that will contradict the OSAS theology. Good try anyway