The Mystery of works with salvation: Those included vs those excluded

[RBDERRICK]

I will respond in different posts in order to focus more on each point.

Only the works of Christ justify us, none of our own work does.

Only the works we do in Christ Jesus justify us. Christ is doing no work in nor through anyone, that is still doing their own dead works alone.

Do we work FOR salvation or do we work BECAUSE OF salvation?

With God, the distinction is without a difference, when doing His works in Christ Jesus.

2Co 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Godly repentance is unto, for, and with salvation.

Only self-justifiers make for themselves a doctrinal difference between saving faith and works of faith. It seeks to separate being justified by God apart from doing the will of God.

1Jo 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Mat 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

In the end, only those doing His will, shall walk and abide with Him forever.

We can vainly try to indoctrinate ourselves spiritually into the family of God by our own faith alone, but only those doing the will of the Father are known obedient sons of His household.

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Both seemingly have everything to do with being saved and justified by Christ, but there's a world of difference between these two.

The only difference God makes between His faith and works, are man's own works to boast of, which are excluded, and doing God's works that only glorify His Son, which are never excluded from Jesus' own faith.

We see here a continued unwillingness to acknoweldge the clear Bible difference between works justified by God, and works not justified by God.

God only preaches against doing our own works alone to be justified by Him. Many self-justifiers of any religion preach against any works to be jusified by God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Salvation is free and unconditional through faith alone,

And so we see the gospel of faith alone, which is dead to God.

It's is indeed a mystery how otherwise normal comprehension, can be set aside to directly oppose plain words written in a book, when it's the Book of God.

That is, until we see it is as old as the serpent in the garden, openly lying against God's sure word:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

is neither. You want health and wealth, you have to work for them, work harder than non believers. Prosperity gospel is fake

Which is preached in the gospel of progressive sanctification for sinning less than before, but never ceasing to sin for Jesus' sake alone.

It's man's half-hearted religion with benefits in this life only.

1Co 9:25
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

because salvation is being conflated with blessing, I think you're smart enough to know the difference.

The blessing of eternal salvation is with repenting from doing dead works of our own for Jesus' sake alone.

The blessing and fruit of the Spirit in living pleasing to God, is through thick and thin, the good times and the bad.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Jesus didn't do any work to "please" the Father,

Really! There always comes a point where error oversteps itself: The effrot to justify oneself apart from works, now leads to Jesus not doing anything to please the Father.

This is where ad absurdum is supplied by itself.

Now we see the doctrine of saving faith alone without works, leads to a doctrine of pleasing God without doing His will.

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Once again it ought go without saying, but God ensures no man can say otherwise without lying: Jesus pleased the Father by doing the will of the Father. God is never pleased by faith alone, but only by doing His works by His faith.

Act 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

There is no faith of Jesus pleasing to the Father, without doing His good pleasure.

Psa 51:18
Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1Th 4:1
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Though we give God the glory for doing His good works through Jesus Christ, we do them with the Son, even as Jesus did them with His Father.

1Jo 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Truly, the mystery of iniquity is the mystery of making works and walking separate from faith and spirit:

Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God the Father was "well pleased" with Jesus when he was baptized,

Because from a child he always did those things pleasing to Him. The declared justification from God was by the life He lived unto the Lord from His youth, without fail.

Heb 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

that was the beginning of his ministry, he hadn't done any miraculous work yet.

So now the only works please God, are only miracles.

This is the blindness of sign-seekers only. They don't see the true works pleasing to God in righteous and holy living.

1Pe 1:15
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Psa 119:2
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

Pro 8:32
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Only the works we do in Christ Jesus justify us. Christ is doing no work in nor through anyone, that is still doing their own dead works alone.

The title "Christian" means little Christ, any godly work we do is credited to Christ who lives within us.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

With God, the distinction is without a difference, when doing His works in Christ Jesus.

There is a profound difference, the difference between a free man and a slave, one is born in freedom, the other is born in bondage. If you work for salvation with a mentality of penance, if you work to please God, then no matter how much work you do, how godly it seems, that's not work in Christ Jesus.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal. 4:21-26)

The only difference God makes between His faith and works, are man's own works to boast of, which are excluded, and doing God's works that only glorify His Son, which are never excluded from Jesus' own faith.

We see here a continued unwillingness to acknoweldge the clear Bible difference between works justified by God, and works not justified by God.

God only preaches against doing our own works alone to be justified by Him. Many self-justifiers of any religion preach against any works to be jusified by God.

What kind of work do you have in mind when you preach this? Is cleaning the alter more justified by Him than cleaning the toilet?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And so we see the gospel of faith alone, which is dead to God.

It's is indeed a mystery how otherwise normal comprehension, can be set aside to directly oppose plain words written in a book, when it's the Book of God.

That is, until we see it is as old as the serpent in the garden, openly lying against God's sure word:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

Faith and work are two sides of the same coin, one cannot exist without the other. "Faith vs work" is a false dichotomy, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

Which is preached in the gospel of progressive sanctification for sinning less than before, but never ceasing to sin for Jesus' sake alone.

It's man's half-hearted religion with benefits in this life only.

But by God's criteria, every sin is deadly, no matter how small you think it is. You violate one law, you violate all laws. The "prosperity gospel" I mentioned was specifically referring to health and wealth, six pack abs and white picket fence. Those are certainly blessings, but only attainable through hard work, none of them comes by "faith alone", that's what I meant. I agree with progressive sanctification, what that means is conforming to the image of Christ, you become more and more like Christ and less and less like your older self.

The blessing of eternal salvation is with repenting from doing dead works of our own for Jesus' sake alone.

The blessing and fruit of the Spirit in living pleasing to God, is through thick and thin, the good times and the bad.

For all God's chosen people whose name are written in the book of life, eternal salvation is assured, your work will be tested, the result determines your REWARD in the afterlife. Even if your work is burned to nothing, you're still saved. Work doesn't qualify your salvation, lack of work doesn't disqualify you from salvation, but there'll be a painful lesson for those whose work fail to stand the test of fire.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)

Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. (Rev. 2:22)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Really! There always comes a point where error oversteps itself: The effrot to justify oneself apart from works, now leads to Jesus not doing anything to please the Father.

This is where ad absurdum is supplied by itself.

Now we see the doctrine of saving faith alone without works, leads to a doctrine of pleasing God without doing His will.

Then please enlighten me, what good works had Jesus done to please the Father when he was baptized at about 30? Studying at the synagogue with the Pharisees whom he harshly condemned later with seven woes?

So now the only works please God, are only miracles.

This is the blindness of sign-seekers only. They don't see the true works pleasing to God in righteous and holy living.

"Righteousness" and "holy living" are in the character, those are not based on behavior or developed through performance, no amount of work could make you righteous or holy. God was pleased with Jesus for who HE IS, not what he did or would do.

 

[RBDERRICK]

1 John 2:17
17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

Where in this verse does John say, "By doing the will of God we abide forever"? He doesn't.

This is your spin on his words. John says only that those who abide forever do God's will.

This is interesting.

I say only those doing the will of God, are abiding forever. You say those abiding forever, are only doing the will of God.

I don't see any difference.

1Jo 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

It fits perfectly with those abiding in Him are only those walking as He walked. And only those walking as He walked, are abiding in Him.

Right?

 

[Tenchi]

This is interesting.

I say only those doing the will of God, are abiding forever. You say those abiding forever, are only doing the will of God.

I don't see any difference.

No, this isn't what I wrote.

The apostle John never wrote that BY doing the will of God, believers abide forever. Instead, he wrote that those who are doing the will of God abide forever. What's the difference? It's the difference between an apple tree being an apple and so producing fruit and an apple tree being an apple by means of producing fruit. Is an apple tree an apple tree because it produces apples? No. It must first be an apple tree in order to bear apples. Likewise, is a Christian a Christian because he produces spiritual fruit? No. He must first be a Christian in order to produce such fruit.

So, then, when John wrote,

1 John 2:17
17 ...whoever does the will of God abides forever.

he is not describing the means of "abiding forever" but a characteristic of one who "abides forever."

 

[RBDERRICK]

No, this isn't what I wrote.

The apostle John never wrote that BY doing the will of God, believers abide forever. Instead, he wrote that those who are doing the will of God abide forever. What's the difference? It's the difference between an apple tree being an apple and so producing fruit and an apple tree being an apple by means of producing fruit. Is an apple tree an apple tree because it produces apples? No. It must first be an apple tree in order to bear apples. Likewise, is a Christian a Christian because he produces spiritual fruit? No. He must first be a Christian in order to produce such fruit.

So, then, when John wrote,

1 John 2:17
17 ...whoever does the will of God abides forever.

he is not describing the means of "abiding forever" but a characteristic of one who "abides forever."

Ok. So now I see the difference you make, which is in the context of being saved by faith apart from works.

I.e. the Christian tree remains a Christian tree by faith alone, apart from the works being produced?

A Christian abides forever by faith alone, apart from doing the will of God or not?

Or, a Christian abides forever by faith alone, and is always doing the will of God by believing in Him, apart from works being done?

I don't believe any of this at all. Do you? Or would you say the same thing, but differently?

 

[RBDERRICK]

The apostle John never wrote that BY doing the will of God, believers abide forever.

This is a phony grammatical correction. The the subject of the verse is doing the will of God, and abiding forever is the object dependent on the subject doing the will of God.

Likewise, is a Christian a Christian because he produces spiritual fruit? No. He must first be a Christian in order to produce such fruit.

The pretence of 'grammatical discipline' is to insert a subject not spoken of, to replace the one given by God. It has all the subtlety of a childish serpent.

By replacing the verb doing the will of God, with a noun being a Christian, then being a Christian becomes the sole subject necessary to abiding forever.

No, this isn't what I wrote.

The apostle John never wrote that BY doing the will of God, believers abide forever. Instead, he wrote that those who are doing the will of God abide forever. What's the difference? It's the difference between an apple tree being an apple and so producing fruit and an apple tree being an apple by means of producing fruit. Is an apple tree an apple tree because it produces apples? No. It must first be an apple tree in order to bear apples. Likewise, is a Christian a Christian because he produces spiritual fruit? No. He must first be a Christian in order to produce such fruit.



he is not describing the means of "abiding forever" but a characteristic of one who "abides forever."

The means becomes being a Christian alone, where doing the will of God becomes an unneccesary adjective and 'characteristic', which we see in a Christianity characterized by doing the will of God at times, and not doing the will of God at times.

I.e. the lone noun faith is necessary to being a Christian and abiding forever, where works are an unnecessary byproduct.

And voila: Being a Christian is not by doing Christ's will, but only by faith alone. It is now extended to abiding forever, is not by doing God's will, but only by being a Christian alone.

Being a Christian by faith is all that matters to abide forever, not doing Christ's will.

And so, we are only judged by what we believe, and not by our works. Which of course is another rejection of plain Scripture.

1Pe 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Only being a tree is necessary to live, with lip service given to bearing unnecessary fruit, while God judges the fruit born as being unto life or unto death:

Gal 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Gal 6:8

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
As Jesus says, the tree is nothing without the fruit, and the fruit judges the tree of what sort it is:

Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

All of the Bible from the beginning is preaching the sure truth, that a man's works judge the man, while sinful man decieving himself, declares a man is only what he believes he is, despite the works he does.

Jas 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The lie is, I'm a Christian only because I believe I am, not because of what I am doing. I am abiding forever only because I believe I am, not because I am doing the will of God.

Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Nope. There is no salvation by our works of any kind. There is only one Savior.

The only one and true Savior does not exclude His own works from His own salvation, and especially not from His own justification by judgement of works.

Only another christ of another gospel saves and justifies men, without doing the will of God.

Repentance is a thing of the mind,

Repentance of man is only a thing of the mind. Repentance of God is of both mind and deed together, even as loving God is in deed and in truth, and not in mind only.

Isa 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

God's commands are always from dead unrighteous works of man, because God does not will that the unrighteous perish in their sins and trespasses.

Only sinful man justifies himself by hearing and repenting of the mind alone, without repenting with a whole heart from all sinful deeds.

Mind repentance alone is as dead to God, as faith alone.

it is a change of understanding, of thought, it is not good works.

Not good works is indeed the preaching of unrepented trespassers against God.

Not repenting of works, is why the unrepentant preach self-justification by what they believe alone.

Repentance may produce good works

Sinful man's repentance of the mind may or may not produce good works, and may even produce less dead works. But they are still filthy rags to God, because they are still from the old heart of lust doing both good and evil.

The half-hearted repentance of doing more good and less evil, is not the pure religion of Jesus Christ.

So, then, whatever "repentance" you think you're preaching it is not biblical repentance.

The repentance I know I am preaching is God's in the Bible. You reject God's commanded repentance from all transgressions, in order to hold to your own kind of repentance.

It only changes the truth of God into a lie for yourself. Not for me. And I only suffer it being preached to me until I have rebuked it a couple of time by Scripture.

Here, Paul clearly indicates the opposite of what you're proposing. It was by God's grace Paul was what he was and that grace, once bestowed, produced Paul's labor for the Lord. In other words God's grace caused Paul's labor; Paul's labor did not obtain God's grace.

Paul's repentance from his old life did obtain mercy from the Lord.

Heb 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So does everyone that repents God's way from the heart for Jesus' sake.

The mercy sinful man obtains for himself, is by doctrinally justifying himself for not repenting from all his sins and trespasses. Which always ends in the grave.

Isa 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

For every truth of God, there is always a lie of the devil, whether it pertains to repentance, covenant, mercy, grace, justification, righteousness...

 

[Tenchi]

Ok. So now I see the difference you make, which is in the context of being saved by faith apart from works.

I.e. the Christian tree remains a Christian tree by faith alone, apart from the works being produced?

A Christian abides forever by faith alone, apart from doing the will of God or not?

Or, a Christian abides forever by faith alone, and is always doing the will of God by believing in Him, apart from works being done?

I don't believe any of this at all. Do you? Or would you say the same thing, but differently?

A person is a Christian because of what God has done through Christ by the Holy Spirit in their life. As Paul wrote, Jesus is the born-again person's redemption, sanctification and justification. He is all of these things for the one who comes to God through him for cleansing and forgiveness. And so, as Paul wrote, no man can boast of contributing anything to the perfect, fully completed work of Christ. All the repentant sinner can do is receive the gift of salvation by faith. (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:6-11; Romans 10:9-10).

As a consequence of his being born-again by the Holy Spirit, a man will, in time, begin to produce "spiritual fruit." This "fruit," however, is the effect, or consequence, of being born-again, not the means whereby they are born-again. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree; it doesn't bear apples in order to be an apple tree.

This is a phony grammatical correction. The the subject of the verse is doing the will of God, and abiding forever is the object dependent on the subject doing the will of God.

??? This is a...confused statement.

1 John 2:17
17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

It must be assumed that what John means here is that, by doing the will of God, a person will abide forever. John didn't actually write this, however. His parallelism in the verse contrasts the world that is passing away with the person who abides forever. What marks such a person? That they do God's will. This is all John indicated in the verse. There is no "by doing" in it.

The pretence of 'grammatical discipline' is to insert a subject not spoken of, to replace the one given by God. It has all the subtlety of a childish serpent.

If you're going to make such an ugly personal attack on a fellow poster, you'll be reported. I am neither childish nor a serpent.

Also it's been my observation that the man who must resort to personal attacks in defending his view indicates in doing so that his defense of his view has failed.

The means becomes being a Christian alone, where doing the will of God becomes an unneccesary adjective and 'characteristic', which we see in a Christianity characterized by doing the will of God at times, and not doing the will of God at times.

??? The person in whom the Spirit dwells, who lives in daily, conscious submission to the Spirit, does not live an on-again, off-again sort of life spiritually. The "key" to such a life, though, is not obedience to God's commands but humble, loving submission to the control of the Spirit (Romans 6:13-22; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5:6).

And voila: Being a Christian is not by doing Christ's will, but only by faith alone. It is now extended to abiding forever, is not by doing God's will, but only by being a Christian alone.

Being a Christian, trusting in Christ as Savior and submitting to him as Lord, is doing God's will.

Being a Christian by faith is all that matters to abide forever, not doing Christ's will.

But, again, trusting in Christ is doing God's will. It is the necessary first step of obedience to God out of which all other acts of obedience must arise.

And so, we are only judged by what we believe, and not by our works

The Christian's works are judged, but not the Christian him/herself. Read 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. They have an Advocate with the Father, you see, their Redeemer and Justifier, Jesus Christ. (1 John 2:1)

Only being a tree is necessary to live, with lip service given to bearing unnecessary fruit,

Real spiritual life inevitably results in spiritual fruit. But that life must exist before the fruit it produces. The fruit cannot produce spiritual life. This would have everything backward spiritually.

All of the Bible from the beginning is preaching the sure truth, that a man's works judge the man

But I've shown that this just isn't so - from the Bible. You are preaching the false Gospel of works-salvation, however you try to cloak this fact in odd stipulations about the source of one's saving works. But there is only one Savior who has done it all. You can only receive his gift; you can't earn it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

A person is a Christian because of what God has done through Christ by the Holy Spirit in their life. As Paul wrote, Jesus is the born-again person's redemption, sanctification and justification. He is all of these things for the one who comes to God through him for cleansing and forgiveness. And so, as Paul wrote, no man can boast of contributing anything to the perfect, fully completed work of Christ. All the repentant sinner can do is receive the gift of salvation by faith. (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:6-11; Romans 10:9-10).

As a consequence of his being born-again by the Holy Spirit, a man will, in time, begin to produce "spiritual fruit." This "fruit," however, is the effect, or consequence, of being born-again, not the means whereby they are born-again. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree; it doesn't bear apples in order to be an apple tree.

Thanks. I can ferret out your answers to the questions:

"The Christian tree remains a Christian tree by faith alone, apart from the works being produced?"

"A Christian abides forever by faith alone, apart from doing the will of God or not?"
"A Christian abides forever by faith alone, and is always doing the will of God by believing in Him, apart from works being done?"

As a consequence of his being born-again by the Holy Spirit, a man will, in time, begin to produce "spiritual fruit."

This says yes to the first two questions.

First, A Christian tree is a Christian tree by faith alone, however much 'time' it takes to begin obeying God, which includes those continued times of disobeying God again.

(If you don't agree, then you can show how being Chrstian tree for a time, before obeying God, doesn't mean being a Christ tree while disobeying God.)

Secondly, all Christian trees abide forever by faith alone, whether doing the will of God at times or not.

(If you don't agree, then you can show how Christian trees abide forever, while not yet doing the will of God, and when not doing the will of God at times again.)

There's still one more, if you want to answer it.

"A Christian abides forever by faith alone, and is always doing the will of God by believing in Him, apart from works being done?"

Some have said yes, that they are always doing the will of God by believing in Him alone, apart from what they are doing at the time, whether good or evil.

 

[RBDERRICK]

??? This is a...confused statement.

Ok. I thought you were trying to disagree with my reading of the verse, based on some sort lack of comprehension in sentence structure.

No problem.

1 John 2:17
17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

It must be assumed that what John means here is that, by doing the will of God, a person will abide forever.

No, it's read by it's sentence structure. Grammatical comprehension is not by assumptions, but by rule.

I'll try again: Doing the will of God and abiding forever are grammatically united in the sentence, so that one cannot be without the other.

Doing the will of God is written first, making it the subject, with abiding forever becoming the predicate. In grammatical rule, a predicate depends on what the subject is doing: Abiding forever is dependent upon doing the will of God.

Therefore, by standard sentence structure alone: By doing the will of God, we abide forever. Or equally, we abide forever by doing the will of God.

The verse does not say, as you want it to, that whosever abiding forever is doing the will of God. As though doing the will of God is only by abiding forever.

You have changed the sentence structure, so that abiding forever is no more dependent on doing the will of God.

It's in order to preach your gospel of saving faith alone, and not dependent on works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If you're going to make such an ugly personal attack on a fellow poster, you'll be reported. I am neither childish nor a serpent.

Really.

This is out-and-out blasphemy.

Nonsense. Utter nonsense. And blasphemous, to boot.

So by your standard, I am utter nonsense and a blasphemer. I mean, an out-and-out blasphemer.

Rom 2:21
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

You see. I normally don't care about personal attacks due to disagreement, and just dismiss it out of hand. I'm so used to it, especially from faith without works preachers, that I've gotten used to it. Unless of course someone becomes a hypocrite about it, and out of desparation theatens to silence me.

The probelm with self-justifers, who deny their own works condemn them, is they are also usually self-righteous self-justifiers, that judge others as guilty when they do the same thing. And do it first. (And I don't even condemn others for personal attackes, because I don't take petty offences personal.)

And in this case, we have a practical learning lesson from the Bible. Self-justifiers condemn others that do the same thing as themselves, but do not condemn themselves for doing it, first.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Also it's been my observation that the man who must resort to personal attacks in defending his view indicates in doing so that his defense of his view has failed.

Tell me about it.

But at least I show why I characterize things taught. Unlike you, I'm not just a name-caller.

By the way, is an out-and-out blasphemer like a really out-there blasphemer?

The Bible just sticks with blasphemer as bad enough. The Lord doesn't need hyperbole to try and make a charge stick:

Jde 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The "key" to such a life, though, is not obedience to God's commands


Being a Christian, trusting in Christ as Savior and submitting to him as Lord, is doing God's will.

Bingo. You win the trifecta. You now say yes to doing the will of God by believing in Him alone, not by obeying Him.

Since the sumbission your preach is not by obeying Him, then neither is doing His will.

Doing the will of God is not by obeying Him, but only by faith alone.

Faith alone is now doing the word, and obedience is now being a hearer only.

In order to do the word of being justified by faith alone, and not by works, one must not do any works, but only do the believing.

Sooner or later the ad absurdum limit is reached.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The Christian's works are judged, but not the Christian him/herself.

Yes, this is agreement with a 4th question, that I would normally ask of faith alone preachers: "Are you condemned as others, when doing the same as others?"


You say no. You preach a God that is a respecter of your person, when judging your works. Only other persons are condemned, when doing the same unrighteous things as you.

My God judges us all by our works the same as any other, without any respect of persons.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It must be assumed that what John means here is that, by doing the will of God, a person will abide forever. John didn't actually write this, however. His parallelism in the verse contrasts the world that is passing away with the person who abides forever. What marks such a person? That they do God's will. This is all John indicated in the verse. There is no "by doing" in it.

Let's review the doctrine of justification not by works, not by obedience, not by doing the will of God, but only by faith.

Is not by faith also with faith? Yes. By faith is also with faith. And by faith is always with faith, and never without faith.

Therefore, by definition of 'by' faith, being always with faith, then 'not by' works is always without works. Else 'by' faith is not always with faith, since 'not by' works is not always without works.

Which is why it's also called being saved by faith without works, being not by works.

And yet, do they not also preach salvation by faith with works following? Yes. Therefore, salvation with faith is by works following.

If by faith is always with faith, then not by works is never with works. No man can be saved with works following, if never saved by works following, else no man can ever be saved by faith and always with faith.

And so, we see the ad absurdum of playing the word game 'by' vs 'with'.

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

If abiding forever is with doing the will of God, then abiding forever is by doing the will of God.

God uses the same word when speaking of 'by' and 'with' pertaining to faith and works. God never makes any difference between being saved by faith and with faith, nor by works and with works.

If any man is saved by faith with works following, then that man is justified with faith by works following.

Ephesians 8:9 does not say "...not of dead works, lest any man should boast..." only works, unqualified and thus universal. All works of whatever kind have no salvific value.

And the only works excluded by salvation and with justification, are works of man's own righteousness that he can boast of. God does not exclude from His salvation and justification His own good works done by believers in Christ Jesus.

Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Otherwise, no man is ever saved nor justified 'with' works obedient to God's will, at any time.

The gospel of faith, not by works, is the gospel of faith not with works. And it excludes any works at any time with being saved, including doing the will of God.

The true God does not preach against obeying Him and doing His own will, in order to be saved by faith alone, without works.

 

[Tenchi]

So by your standard, I am utter nonsense and a blasphemer. I mean, an out-and-out blasphemer.

No, I wrote that your ideas are blasphemous and nonsense, not you personally. Many are those who have held such ideas and been otherwise sensible, well-reasoned folk.

You see. I normally don't care about personal attacks due to disagreement,

But the remarks you posted from me described the ideas you were putting forward, not you, personally. Your words, however, were not to my ideas but to me and were, therefore, an ad hominem attack.

Unless of course someone becomes a hypocrite about it, and out of desparation theatens to silence me.

See? Here's another personal attack. Do you not understand how to deal with ideas separately from those who have offered them? It seems not.

The probelm with self-justifers, who deny their own works condemn them, is they are also usually self-righteous self-justifiers, that judge others as guilty when they do the same thing. And do it first. (And I don't even condemn others for personal attackes, because I don't take petty offences personal.)

??? You seem to be getting quite up-in-arms about something you're saying here your inured to... And, ironically, your doing so because you've not distinguished between comments about your ideas and comments about you. Look, though, how nasty you've become as a result of your failure to make careful distinctions. Now, I'm not only a "childish serpent," but a "hypocrite," and a "self-righteous self-justifier," too. Yes, clearly, you don't care about personal attacks...

Tell me about it.

You're doing fine without my help. Everything you've written illustrates a failed perspective.

But at least I show why I characterize things taught. Unlike you, I'm not just a name-caller.

And more ad hominem. See above.

By the way, this is the last time I'm putting up with this sort of interaction. Knock off the ad hominem or I will report you. Sheesh.

By the way, is an out-and-out blasphemer like a really out-there blasphemer?

Read again what I wrote. Did I call you an out-and-out blasphemer? No, I didn't. A person and his ideas are not identical. Obviously.

The Bible just sticks with blasphemer as bad enough. The Lord doesn't need hyperbole to try and make a charge stick:

Says the one who has responded (wrongly) with "self-righteous self-justifier," "hypocrite," and "name caller" (in addition to "childish serpent"). What was that you had quoted from Romans 2? Something about not doing the very thing you instruct others not to do? Wow.

Bingo. You win the trifecta. You now say yes to doing the will of God by believing in Him alone, not by obeying Him.

To believe God is to obey Him. See Hebrews 3:14-19, Hebrews 11:6, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Romans 1:17.

Since the sumbission your preach is not by obeying Him, then neither is doing His will.

To submit to God is to obey Him.

James 4:6-7
6 ..."God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
7 Submit therefore to God...

Doing the will of God is not by obeying Him, but only by faith alone.

Exercising faith in God, in Christ, is an act of obedience. You have a very confused conception of what it is to obey God...

Faith alone is now doing the word, and obedience is now being a hearer only.

Who said obedience is confined only to hearing? I didn't. But obedience to God begins with faith, love and submission to Him, not external acts of righteousness, like giving to charity, or going to church, or teaching a Sunday School class.

Matthew 22:36-37
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (See also: 1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Romans 12:1
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

In order to do the word of being justified by faith alone, and not by works, one must not do any works, but only do the believing.

Sooner or later the ad absurdum limit is reached.

Maybe an analogy will help. If a man dying of brain cancer believes his g.p. who tells him he has cancer and goes to see an oncologist who tells him he needs brain surgery to remove a cancerous tumor and that man believes his oncologist and ends up having the surgery, has the sick man's faith in his g.p., doctor, and brain surgeon resulted in him doing nothing? No. He's acted on the things he's been told by these medical experts, going from one to the next in seeking rescue from his tumor.

The sick man's faith, his trust in, these medical experts alone doesn't save him from his brain tumor, however. He must act in faith in response to what he's being told about his brain tumor and how to remedy it, which moves him from one medical expert to the next, as he believes and follows their medical direction. In the end, though, the man is on an operating table waiting to be saved from his brain tumor by the brain surgeon. The sick man can't contribute anything to what the surgeon must do to save him; he must simply lay on the operating table and receive the saving work of the surgeon.

All the sick man's faith has done, all his going from one medical expert to the next has accomplished, ultimately, is to move him into the orbit of the brain surgeon who, alone, without the sick man's help, can save him. The sick man can believe as hard as he is able and wait for weeks on the operating table to be saved, but if the brain surgeon doesn't do his saving, surgical work upon the sick man, the sick man will die. So, then, the sick man has exercised faith in what he was told about his cancerous tumor; he has acted in manifestation of that faith, going from medical expert to medical expert; he has laid himself down on an operating table, even, but none of these things save him. They merely bring him to the brain surgeon who can save him. And if the brain surgeon doesn't do his saving work on the sick man, despite all that the man has done to arrive at the place where the surgeon can save him, the sick man will die.

In the same way, the sinner who has heard the Gospel, realizes he needs saving from his "sin tumor" and believes it, may come before God in prayer, kneeling down at God's feet in humble repentance, confession and submission. But the man's believing of the Gospel, and his kneeling down before God in prayer, and his repentance, confession, and submission of his will to God's doesn't save the man. To his actual salvation the sin-sick man can contribute nothing. Only the Great Physician, Jesus Christ the Savior, can save him. All that his believing, and praying and repentance, confession and submission do are place him before the Great Physician in a circumstance where his "sin tumor" can be removed by the Great Physician. Of this removal, the sin-sick man is only a recipient; he has no active role to play in the atoning, redemptive, justifying work of the Savior.

None of this is absurd, but is, essentially, what the Bible says are the facts of the matter concerning our salvation. I've already offered Scripture in earlier posts showing this is so.

Yes, this is agreement with a 4th question, that I would normally ask of faith alone preachers: "Are you condemned as others, when doing the same as others?"


You say no.

I say "No" because of the Bible passage I cited to you. Here it is:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Tenchi]

You preach a God that is a respecter of your person, when judging your works. Only other persons are condemned, when doing the same unrighteous things as you.

God is absolutely a "respecter of persons," casting the lost and unrepentant sinner into hell but giving entrance into heaven to those who have trusted in His Son as Savior and Lord. Do you deny this? Do you deny that God treats His children very differently than those who are not His? Do you deny God treated His Chosen People, the Jews, very differently in the OT than the pagan nations all around them? Do you deny that God treated Gideon differently than the Midianites God had him fight and defeat? Do you deny that God treated Moses and the Israelites differently than He treated the Egyptians whom He afflicted with plagues and death?

In the offer of salvation, God is no respecter of persons; in His hatred of sin, God is no respecter of persons; in His extension of the offer of His love, mercy and grace, God is no respecter of persons; in the giving of His Spirit, God is no respecter of persons. But this doesn't mean God hasn't acted in the manner described above, dealing with people very differently, at times, treating some with kindness, protection and provision and others with wrath, destruction and death.

And the conduct of those God has shown favor and grace has not been the basis for His attention. Though the Israelites were often wayward and disobedient, they were always God's Chosen People, special recipients of unique, divine promises and protection. Though Moses was imperfect in his leadership - a murderer, in fact - he was still used by God to bring the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt, given special authority and experiences with God no leader of any pagan nation ever enjoyed. Though Peter, a blustering, rash loudmouth, denied Christ three times, he remained one of the Twelve, and was invested by God with special supernatural power and authority in establishment of the Early Church.

Let's review the doctrine of justification not by works, not by obedience, not by doing the will of God, but only by faith.

Again, exercising faith toward God is obedience to Him.

Is not by faith also with faith? Yes. By faith is also with faith. And by faith is always with faith, and never without faith.

??? I can walk through a forest at night with a flashlight, but not necessarily by the flashlight. If I don't turn on the flashlight in my hand as I walk through the forest, I am not walking by the flashlight, only with it. The flashlight is in my hand and so it is with me, but it is not being used, so it is not by the flashlight that I am traversing the forest. I don't, then, agree with your idea of making "by" and "with" synonymous.

All human beings, saved or not, have the capacity for faith and employ it daily in a multitude of ways. So all people encounter the Gospel with faith in their possession. But not all people respond to the Gospel positively and by exercise of their faith in it, are saved by the Savior.

And yet, do they not also preach salvation by faith with works following? Yes. Therefore, salvation with faith is by works following.

??? No. See above.

And so, we see the ad absurdum of playing the word game 'by' vs 'with'.

Well, you've certainly produced a very confused collection of statements.... I don't see that they reflect my view at all, though. They're just a mish-mash of words, as far as I can tell.