The Mystery of works with salvation: Those included vs those excluded

[RBDERRICK]

Only the works of Christ justify us, none of our own work does.

Exactly. Now you understand the difference between doing works of our own righteousness without Christ, and doing works of His righteousness through Christ.

The former are boasted by dead sinners, and the latter glorify God in righteous saints.

Tit 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Do we work FOR salvation or do we work BECAUSE OF salvation?

Remember what you just acknowledged.

The difference is not between words but between works. The judgment of God is between doing our own works without Christ, and doing His own works through Christ.

2Co 4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Confession and repentance for Jesus' sake, is for His forgiveness and salvation.

No man does anything for Jesus' sake, and not for sake of His forgiveness and salvation.

Preaching against doing anything for sake of Jesus' salvation, is preaching against doing anything for Jesus' sake.

If we are not doing anything for sake of being justified with God, we are not doing anything to please God.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Without works pleasing to God, it is impossible to have His faith.

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Making up questions about words, is a game that diverts from the judgement of works we do.

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
It is manifest, that whole volumes of explanation and endless debate is made over and issue of words, rather than the only issue of works judged by God.

God makes no difference between words of by, with, for, because, etc...pertaining to His salvaton and jsutification, but only that we repent doing our own works for Jesus' sake, and now doing His will with His Son Jesus Christ.

Phl 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Phl 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Both seemingly have everything to do with being saved and justified by Christ, but there's a world of difference between these two.

Between the two different works done, not between any words argued over to no purpose.

Whether we say for, by, with, or because, only doing the will of God abides forever.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Salvation is free and unconditional through faith alone,

I reject out of hand the gospel you preach.

My Lord only accepts unconditional surrender to His will.

No man does anything pleasing to God nor man by faith alone, which is dead to God and man.

Word games to the contrary does no good, but only for love of doctrinal and intellectual pleasure.

I no longer play the word game of useless strife, but only preach the gospel of doing God's will for Jesus' sake.

If someone wants to preach a gospel of words alone, then I reject it out of hand, and go on to busy myself with doing God's will, and not doing my own nor the devil's.

Luk 19:13
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Faithful sons of God occupy ourselves in works done for Jesus' sake. Theologians and pjilosphers occupty themselves in words done for the pleasure of it.

Act 17:21
(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

The doctrine of Christ is doing the word of the truth. The philosophy of man is for hearers and talkers only.

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Jesus didn't do any work to "please" the Father, God the Father was "well pleased" with Jesus when he was baptized,

Now we see the teaching of faith alone without works, and not saved by works, leads to the teaching of God being pleased without doing His will, and not pleased by doing His will. By doing the will of God, the Father is not pleased.

Once again we see the vanity of philosophy destroying the doctrine and faith of Jesus Christ.

Such absurdity is readily rebuked by Jesus:

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Jesus never pleased the Father by doing nothing, but only by doing those things pleasing to the Father.

The Son was not left alone, because the Son never did nothing alone. The Father leave alone, them that only believe alone, without doing anything to please God by His Son Jesus Christ.

Jhn 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

The doctrine of Jesus Christ is only known by doing it, not by assembling words together to sound like it.

2Ti 3:10
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

The doctrine of God is the manner of life, not just the manner of speech.

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The gospel of Jesus Christ is obeyed, not just agreed with in high-sounding words that look like it.

2Ti 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The gospel power of God is to live godly, not to sound godly.

Being pleased without doing His good pleasure, is just more intellectual word games to avoid the doing of it. There's nothing in it to obey. It's only useful for ear candy, that justifies not doing God's good pleasure to please Him.

2Ti 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

No one is loving God and pleasing Him, by words alone, such as how God is so 'well pleased' with them, by not doing His good pleasure.

Truly, the gospel of faith alone without works, is as dead to God, as it is empty and void of doing anything to be sons of God.

3Jo 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

We see how every argument for that gospel, is only made with words to justify it, and void of any works to actually do it.

Afterall, what is there to do, with faith alone without works, but only believe it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

BLESSING is neither. You want health and wealth, you have to work for them, work harder than non believers.

Exactly again. Such works are good to do by any person on earth in this life, including non believers that many times work harder and better than believers.

Luk 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Zec 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

And so it's not just about how we work, but why. Many do it for a corruptible crown in this life alone, but only the few do it for the everlasting incorruptible crown of Jesus Christ.

Only the works we do for Jesus' sake alone, are justified by God and abide forever.

Abraham was not found to be justified by any works of blessing to his own household, like that of others. He is only justified declared to be justified by God, in doing the work that was of God alone, because it was only done by faith in Him alone. He had no will nor desire of His own to offer up and slay his own promised son to his God.

In like manner, Jesus Christ had not will nor desire of His own to offer Himself a Lamb for God on a cross.

Luk 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Like the Son pleasing the Father, only the works done for Jesus' sake alone, are the justified works of God and His righteousness, that no man would ever boast of as with Abraham offering up Isaac, and Jesus Christ on the cross.

These are the works declared to be justified by God, because they are His alone to glory of:

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

These are the works of God we do in Christ, that we cannot even say are our's, but are only the works of God done in and through us for Jesus' sake.

1Co 10:31
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Prosperity gospel is fake because salvation is being conflated with blessing,

Exactly, and many religions practice it, including the Jews and Christians religions.

It's called progressive sanctification from dead works, with a better life of sinning less.

It's not the pure religion of Jesus Christ with whole hearted repentance and sancitification from all dead works, whether profiting in this life or not.

Luk 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Mat 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

I think you're smart enough to know the difference.

And live it and teach it. No man is justified by any works we can boast of by power of our own will, but only the works we do for Jesus' sake alone, are justified by God unto everlasting life.

1Jo 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

[RBDERRICK]

No, I wrote that your ideas are blasphemous and nonsense, not you personally.

Thank you. And yet my judgment of your ideas, you say is about you personally.

Read again what I wrote. Did I call you an out-and-out blasphemer? No, I didn't. A person and his ideas are not identical. Obviously.

Read again what I wrote. Did I call you a childish serpent? No, I didn't. Only you did.

By the way, this is the last time I'm putting up with this sort of interaction.

Fine by me. You started it, and we can finish it together.

Knock off the ad hominem or I will report you. Sheesh.

You begin an ad hominum attack, and then want to end any ad hominem turned back to you, by making an outgoing ad hominum attack.

Sweet.

 

[hawkman]

Moderator note .
1.1: Grant others the courtesy to be understood and acknowledge their views. As best as one is capable, speak truth in love.; ( Mathew 7:12, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13)
1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

 

[RBDERRICK]

To believe God is to obey Him. See Hebrews 3:14-19, Hebrews 11:6, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Romans 1:17.

So, we now preach the same thing.

Since believing is obeying, then there is no believing God without obeying Him.

The faith of God is only with obeying Him.

We now both preach the gospel of saving faith with obedience to God.

There is no gospel of God by faith alone, without obeying God.

Otherwise, believing is not obeying.

Some also preach faith is work, which I agree with, and so God's gospel of faith is with works. The gospel of faith alone, without works, is not of God's obedient faith.

Othewrwise, faith is not work.

Who said obedience is confined only to hearing? I didn't.

No one has, nor ever suggested it. I've never even heard of it before.

Believing without obeying is for hearers only, and faith without works is dead between the ears alone.

We agree with believing God is obeying God.

But obedience to God begins with faith, love and submission to Him,

True, And not only begins with, but as we agree is believing, loving, and submitting to Him.

not external acts of righteousness,

Since external acts will be done, then I would rather say not only acts of righteousness.

Mat 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Obedient faith toward God is first obeying His Spirit not to lust from the heart with the world.

1Pe 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

As we agree with Jesus, obedience and loving God is within the heart first.

Those lusting with the heart are not believing God, because they are not obeying Jesus tocleanse within first.

Believing God is obeying God. Disobeying God is not believing God. Obeying lust of the world is not believing God fro the heart.

Only the pure of heart obeying God in the Spirit, shall see God and abide forever.

We are in agreement that believing God is obeying, submitting, and humbling ourselves to God.

The sick man's faith, his trust in, these medical experts alone doesn't save him from his brain tumor, however. He must act in faith in response to what he's being told about his brain tumor and how to remedy it

Now you add external obedience to internal obedience to believing God.

And so we agree again, and now with Peter.

2Pe 1:5
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But the man's believing of the Gospel, and his kneeling down before God in prayer, and his repentance, confession, and submission of his will to God's doesn't save the man.

True. Not without obeying God to purge lust from the heart, and caste down any thoughts for sin.

Otherwise, he is not believing God, because he is not obeying God inwardly nor outwardly, but only showing a form of godliness.

Now we agree with Paul:

2Co 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Co 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

2Co 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

To his actual salvation the sin-sick man can contribute nothing.

This is confusing. First you say he is not saved by these things alone, to which I agree, if they are not accompnaied with obedient faith within.

But now you say he is saved with these things?

Also, what is an 'actual' salvation? The only salvation of Jesus is from the lust of the world first, and also from the works of the flesh.

2Pe 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Gal 5:20

Gal 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And what is this 'contributing' to salvation? Once saved by beleiving and obeying God from the heart, we don't 'contribute' any more 'purity' or 'holiness' to God's perfect cleasning within and without.

As you say, we only add to our obedient faith, those things that please God, and ensure we do not fall back into our old lusting and sinning:

2Pe 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The error of the religious was in trying to 'contribute' their own righteousness to God's righteousness outwardly, while doing nothing to have His purity and holiness inwardly. It would be the same error to contribute our own holiness thoughts within.

Rom 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Being ignorant of the inward obedient faith we preach, they sought righteousness by outward works alone, without obeying God with inward purging of the soul and heart from lust.

Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I say "No" because of the Bible passage I cited to you. Here it is:

I say yes.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I see. I'm speaking of lusting works of the flesh, not ministerial errors of doctrine, half-hearted efforts to win souls to Christ, or for honor of men.

Col 3:23
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Col 3:24
Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Every obedient believer can be in error and an 'heretick' to the Bible in some way or another, since only Jesus Christ spoke perfectly all words from His Father's own mouth.

And seeking ministerial advancement through winning of souls, is honored only by man, not God.

Col 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

This is where doing wrong in an unrighteous way of trespass against God, that all men are judged without repect of persons.

There is of course respect of persons in the body and ministery of Christ, where there are no disobedient sinners, that cannot minister on behalf of Jesus Christ. Though they may do so in name only.

And there is respect of persons among the obedient saints within the ministry of Christ, where by faithfulness to God's word and will, He gives some prophets, apostles, pastors...

And so, if you mean not 'contributing' to salvation by seeking to make ourselves more righteous and holy and pure than God inwardly or outwardly, and you see the difference between works of disobedient to God, vs errors of ministery, then we agree in all things.

 

[Tenchi]

Thank you. And yet my judgment of your ideas, you say is about you personally.

No, you weren't speaking to ideas but to types of people.

"Unless of course someone becomes a hypocrite about it...".

"The problem with self-justifers, who deny their own works condemn them, is they are also usually self-righteous self-justifiers, that judge others as guilty when they do the same thing."

"But at least I show why I characterize things taught. Unlike you, I'm not just a name-caller."

There is no attack on ideas in these statements, they are oblique personal attacks. Not so, my remarks about your ideas being nonsensical and blasphemous.

Anyway, since this is the sort of rhetorical slipperiness in which you're willing to engage, I'm not interested in continuing discussion with you.

Ciao.

 

[RBDERRICK]

As a consequence of his being born-again by the Holy Spirit, a man will, in time, begin to produce "spiritual fruit."

And in the meantime not doing the will of God, and disobeying Him.

Not tree of God is bearing bad fruit.

Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Jas 3:11
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

God's holy tree is all good. Only man's religious tree is both good and evil. Same for Jesus' living well.

A person is a Christian because of what God has done through Christ by the Holy Spirit in their life.

True. Taken out sinning away. Which is only by repenting of our sinning for His sake.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Exactly. Now you understand the difference between doing works of our own righteousness without Christ, and doing works of His righteousness through Christ.

The former are boasted by dead sinners, and the latter glorify God in righteous saints.

Tit 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Remember what you just acknowledged.

The difference is not between words but between works. The judgment of God is between doing our own works without Christ, and doing His own works through Christ.

2Co 4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Confession and repentance for Jesus' sake, is for His forgiveness and salvation.

No man does anything for Jesus' sake, and not for sake of His forgiveness and salvation.

Preaching against doing anything for sake of Jesus' salvation, is preaching against doing anything for Jesus' sake.

If we are not doing anything for sake of being justified with God, we are not doing anything to please God.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Without works pleasing to God, it is impossible to have His faith.

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Making up questions about words, is a game that diverts from the judgement of works we do.

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
It is manifest, that whole volumes of explanation and endless debate is made over and issue of words, rather than the only issue of works judged by God.

God makes no difference between words of by, with, for, because, etc...pertaining to His salvaton and jsutification, but only that we repent doing our own works for Jesus' sake, and now doing His will with His Son Jesus Christ.

Phl 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Phl 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Between the two different works done, not between any words argued over to no purpose.

Whether we say for, by, with, or because, only doing the will of God abides forever.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

I reject out of hand the gospel you preach.

My Lord only accepts unconditional surrender to His will.

No man does anything pleasing to God nor man by faith alone, which is dead to God and man.

Word games to the contrary does no good, but only for love of doctrinal and intellectual pleasure.

I no longer play the word game of useless strife, but only preach the gospel of doing God's will for Jesus' sake.

If someone wants to preach a gospel of words alone, then I reject it out of hand, and go on to busy myself with doing God's will, and not doing my own nor the devil's.

Luk 19:13
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Faithful sons of God occupy ourselves in works done for Jesus' sake. Theologians and pjilosphers occupty themselves in words done for the pleasure of it.

Act 17:21
(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

The doctrine of Christ is doing the word of the truth. The philosophy of man is for hearers and talkers only.

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Now we see the teaching of faith alone without works, and not saved by works, leads to the teaching of God being pleased without doing His will, and not pleased by doing His will. By doing the will of God, the Father is not pleased.

Once again we see the vanity of philosophy destroying the doctrine and faith of Jesus Christ.

Such absurdity is readily rebuked by Jesus:

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Jesus never pleased the Father by doing nothing, but only by doing those things pleasing to the Father.

The Son was not left alone, because the Son never did nothing alone. The Father leave alone, them that only believe alone, without doing anything to please God by His Son Jesus Christ.

Jhn 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

The doctrine of Jesus Christ is only known by doing it, not by assembling words together to sound like it.

2Ti 3:10
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

The doctrine of God is the manner of life, not just the manner of speech.

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The gospel of Jesus Christ is obeyed, not just agreed with in high-sounding words that look like it.

2Ti 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The gospel power of God is to live godly, not to sound godly.

Being pleased without doing His good pleasure, is just more intellectual word games to avoid the doing of it. There's nothing in it to obey. It's only useful for ear candy, that justifies not doing God's good pleasure to please Him.

2Ti 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

No one is loving God and pleasing Him, by words alone, such as how God is so 'well pleased' with them, by not doing His good pleasure.

Truly, the gospel of faith alone without works, is as dead to God, as it is empty and void of doing anything to be sons of God.

3Jo 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

We see how every argument for that gospel, is only made with words to justify it, and void of any works to actually do it.

Afterall, what is there to do, with faith alone without works, but only believe it.

Do we really have to debate on this FALSE DICHOTOMY of "work vs faith", man? Every good tree bears good fruit, every bad tree bears bad fruit, a tree is known for its fruit. If a tree is supposedly a good one, yet it bears bad fruit, then that's a bad tree in disguise.

 

[RBDERRICK]

God is absolutely a "respecter of persons,"

Not with judgment of good or evil works. Until you acknowledge this simple

2 Chr
And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment. {19:7} Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it:] for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Prov
{24:23} These [things] also [belong] to the wise. [It is] not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

Rom
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: {2:7} To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: {2:8} But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, {2:9} Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {2:10} But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: {2:11} For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter
{1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

If you acknoweldge God's righteous judgment of people doing the same things, then we can continue.

I don't argue with people who reject simple words of God, and try to divert the truth into something else.

Both the unjust Jews and Christians have justified themselves, while condemning others doing the same things. And the Lord God by both the prophets and the apostles condemn it.

Rom
{2:3} And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

casting the lost and unrepentant sinner into hell but giving entrance into heaven to those who have trusted in His Son as Savior and Lord. Do you deny this?

An unrepentant sinners is the one sinning against God.

Matthew
{7:21} Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Luke
{6:46} And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Only those doing the will of God are justified by the Lord. With the Lord, only those obeying Him are believing Him.

On this point, so long as you continue to preach believing God is obeying God, then we can discuss it in Scriptural detail.

But, once again, I don't argue with anyone perverting the judgment of God, nor obeying God. There is no obedience to God 'in spirit' only, while disobeying Him in works of the flesh.

Faith alone without works is dead to God, and spirit only without deads is a dead body.

James
{2:26} For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

Do you deny that God treats His children very differently than those who are not His?

Do you deny that the Father judges all children the same, when doing the same things? Including us who call on Him?

1 Peter
{1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The argument is about God judging our works with no respect of persons. Once you confirm He this truth of God's righteous judgement, then we can go on to how the Father deals with His obedient sons differently than the children of disobedience.

In the offer of salvation, God is no respecter of persons;

Correct. Any man repenting of sinning for Jesus' sake, is granted repentance unto salvation and life.

in His hatred of sin, God is no respecter of persons;

Correct. God condemns everyone sinning against Him, without respect of persons.

Psa 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

in the giving of His Spirit, God is no respecter of persons.

Of course He is. God does not give His Spirit to any worker of iniquity, regardless of what they believe about the Spirit of God.

And the conduct of those God has shown favor and grace has not been the basis for His attention.

Conduct certainly has been the basis for His judgment unto condemnation and destruction.

The 'by' verses 'with' word game is a useless diversion, that has already been debunked.

No man is favored with God by not doing His will. He favors only them doing His will.

Ps 5
{5:12} For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as [with] a shield.

Though the Israelites were often wayward and disobedient, they were always God's Chosen People,

And like all nations destroyed by God, God chose to destroy them that refused to obey Him.

He also warned them alike.

God is not a respector of persons, to judge one person differently than another doing the same things.

1 Thess
{3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

The deeds are judged the same, with the same verdict. God judges every person with equal justice under His law.

I reject any judge, whether man or god, that unjustly aquits people favorable to him, and punishes others doing the same things.
Nahum
{1:3} The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked:]
Job
Rom
{2:4} Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The Lord is longsuffering of unrighteous deeds, but never justifies them in any man.

{10:14} If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

The righteous know they are judged the same as all them doing the same. The righteous do not cover themselves from God's righteous judgment of our works by our own doctrinal injustice.

Job did not shun God judging him equally as others. He only demanded to know what evil like others he had done.

But God was not judging him guilty of any works, but only proved his faith to bless him twofold in life. As well as to purge his soul from any vain imagination, that God is an unrighteous judge of men's deeds.

He justifies all them that do His will, and He condemns all them that do not His will.

Again, exercising faith toward God is obedience to Him.

Exactly. And so long as we are not teaching inward obedience only, with outward disobedience, then we agree.

Beleiving God is obeying God in spirit, word, deed, and truth.

Disobeying God in deed, is not believing God in spirit.

1 John {3:17} But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? {3:18} My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

James 2 is not the oinly place where God declares inward faith without outward works is dead, and left alone by Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

??? I can walk through a forest at night with a flashlight, but not necessarily by the flashlight.

Ever try walkiing with a flashlight, but not by it's light?

Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Walking with Jesus is walking by His light. Anything else is foolish word games.

If I don't turn on the flashlight in my hand as I walk through the forest, I am not walking by the flashlight, only with it. The flashlight is in my hand and so it is with me, but it is not being used, so it is not by the flashlight that I am traversing the forest.

The argument is about being saved 'by' and 'with' works, that we are doing.

Walking with a flashlight in hand without working it, has nothing to do with seeing and walking by or with it's light shining.

No one is saved nor justified by nor with a Bible in hand, nor displayed on the living room table.

I don't, then, agree with your idea of making "by" and "with" synonymous.

Because you don't address the argument made, but change the parameters into something else entirely.

No man has Christ in a Bible only. No more than a Genie in a bottle.

No man has Jesus Christ without His light shining. No man walks with Jesus, except by His light.

I'm talking about things that are working.

Incredible.

Well, you've certainly produced a very confused collection of statements....

Only with them that enjoy word games more than plain words, that have no other meaning.

1 Cor
{14:32} And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. {14:33} For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I don't see that they reflect my view at all, though. They're just a mish-mash of words, as far as I can tell.

They make perfect sense to me, which is all that matters to me. I'm only interested if others can correct them, to make the teaching more perfect.

I'm not interested in proselytizing others. I'll do what I fairly can to try and be more simple and clear, but that can only goes so far.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Do we really have to debate on this FALSE DICHOTOMY of "work vs faith", man?

Not me and you. The thread exposes them that do.

It shows to what depths some people are willing to go, in order to justify themselves while not doing the will of God.

It's nothing new, and is rebuked by the Lord:

2 Tim
{6:3} If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; {6:4} He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, {6:5} Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

I always find it interesting how God has already exposed certain manners of sinful people, when they practice deceitful games to promote a lie. It began in the garden with that old serpent, and that old game is still continuing today.

And it always goes back to the same place and first lie uttered on earth:

Genesis
{3:4} And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

God has warned all men and women from the beginning, that if we disobey Him, we die to Him. The life of our soul is not upheld by our own will and power alone, but only by the Spirit of the Lord. If we are obeying Him with a clean heart, we live by Him forever. If we are disobeying with a corrupted heart, we die.

Those preaching their own faith alone, imagine they are keeping their own souls alive by their own word alone.

That can be done on earth, but ends in the grave. God will judge us all by our own works to justify and condemn, not by our own beliefs.

Every good tree bears good fruit, every bad tree bears bad fruit, a tree is known for its fruit. If a tree is supposedly a good one, yet it bears bad fruit, then that's a bad tree in disguise.

True. Or just a bad tree period. Not every evil doer on earth tries to hide their evil intents. And even fewer try to justify their disobedience to God by pseuod-doctrinal fiat.

 

[RBDERRICK]

None of them are qualified by any statement to the effect that salvation is obtained by works - but only of a God-originating sort.

Now you at least acknowledge the difference.

This qualification is of your own making

Now you can acknowledge it's the qualification God makes to be justified by doing His works by faith, and not of our own will and faith alone.

James
{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

{2:25} Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

which is why it contradicts the passages I cited that explicitly exclude good works as a means of salvation.

I.e. Your own doctrinal reading of passages, that you isolate from other passages, so as to exclude them from intruding upon saving yourself by your own faith alone.

James
{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

No one is justified - by which I mean saved and made a "new creature in Christ" - by "doing the will of God in Christ Jesus."

If man is not justified by doing the will of God, then man is justified by not doing the will of God.

If we do not abide forever by doing the will of God, then we do abide forever by not doing the will of God

Once doing the will of God is preached against to be justified by, then not doing the will of God is preached to be jsutified by.

That is the devil in the doctrine of being justified by faith alone, and not by doing any works: By doing any works, a man is therfore not justified by faith alone.

And so, doing any works must be preached against to be justified by faith alone.

The gospel of saving faith alone without works, is a decietful misnomer. It's the gospel of saving faith with sinful works.

It is by grace alone through faith alone that Salvation - who is Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2;8-9; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-13) - reconciles us to God.

Once again, the isolation of Scripture from Scripture:

Acts
{3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

No man is reconciled to God without repenting from doing unrighteous works against God.

2 Cor
{6:14} Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? {6:15} And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? {6:16} And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God;

Sinners still sinning against God with their faith alone, are only justified and reconciled to a christ of their own in fellowship with their sinful works.

Eph
{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

{4:5} For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

Faith aloners preach of their own faith, and of themselves being saved with their sinning by their their own faith alone.

They do not preach the faith of God and Jesus Christ who saves His people from there sinning and trespassing, not in them.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is, as it stands, a nonsensical remark. God's "good work" of our salvation was accomplished solely and perfectly in and through Jesus Christ.

God's work to reconcile man to Himself, is by the Son's perfect resurrection from the dead.

1 Peter
{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

God's work to condemn all sinners against Himself, is by the Son's perfect obedience unto death at the hands of sinful man.

Romans
{11:30} For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: {11:31} Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. {11:32} For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

All men that sin are condemned at the cross of Jesus, and are judged guilty of His blood. Not just those at the cross doing the wicked work.

Isaiah
{50:5} The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. {50:6} I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

And all them that repent not, but continue in wicked works, still crucify the Son unto themselves afresh.

Only them repenting of all their sinning against the Son for His mercy's sake, are freely forgiven and reconciled as a whole new creature of God in Christ Jesus.

By resurrection from the dead, the unjustly condemned Lord was victorious over all His wicked enemies, that crucified Him to death, which includes all men, since all men have sinned against Him.

He now only accepts unconditional surrended that repent for His sake. He rejects any conditional surrender of His enemies, that think to be reconciled by their own faith alone and half-hearted repentance.

Faith alone without first repenting, nor with doing the work, are crucifiers self-righteously declaring themselves innocent of Jesus' blood, because God commanded His Son to let the crucifers do so.

 

[RBDERRICK]

He ALONE is the propitiation for our sin; he ALONE is the Way, the Truth and the Life; he ALONE is the Savior (1 John 4:7-11; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5). We can contribute nothing to the entirely finished work of Jesus on our behalf.

Heb{11:1} Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Your faith alone stuff is void of substance of God, because has not evidence of faith by doing His works.

It's just cheap talk prettied up in doctrinal guise.

Prov
[As] a jewel of gold in a swine’s snout, [so is] a fair woman which is without discretion.

Rev
{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Even as men can see our faith by our works, so does Jesus judge our faith by our works.

The only time Jesus ever sees our faith, is by our works. Men can see their own faith alone without, apart from any works, but not God nor men.

Mark
{2:4} And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. {2:5} When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

{13:7} Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
Men only follow our faith by our works, never by our words of faith alone.

Men's works of continued sinning by their faith, condemns their faith as unworthy to follow in Christ Jesus.

I reject your words of saving faith alone, and especially your continued sinful works to follow to the grave.

Which is where all such salvation of man's faith alone ends. Then the righteous Lord just goes right ahead and judges us all by our works, without having any respect to what we believe about it.

Heb
{9:27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: {9:28} So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The only ones recieving the reward of righteousness with resurrection unto life, are the righteous doing His righteousness at the end.

Collosians
{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

The faith aloners with sinning unto the end, will be judged by their sinful works alone.

Galatians
{6:7} Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. {6:8} For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Works, either "secular" or "religious", are evidence of salvation.

Isaiah
{64:6} But we are all as an unclean [thing,] and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

God doesn't accept any persons' filthy works without Christ, whether secular or religious.

Only the carnal minded are blind to the difference between doing godly works in Christ Jesus, and doing works of man's will alone.

You don't work to earn your salvation, you work to SHOW your salvation.

Once works are judged to SHOW our salvation, then our salvation is judged by works SHOWN.

And secular or religious works with Christ, only show secular religions of sinners, that end in the grave.

That's a big difference between slave mentality and free man mentality,

What carnal man calls bondage to God's law, the righteous call love of His righteousness.

Psalms
{119:113} I hate [vain] thoughts: but thy law do I love. {119:163} I hate and abhor lying: [but] thy law do I love.

What sinful man calls freedom from obeying God's law, God calls rebellion:

{2:1} Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

{2:2} The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying,]{2:3} Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

{2:4} He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

and this is not very plainly stated anywhere in the bible, it's a conclusion you have to reach by yourself.

While it's true someone has to choose that liberty from bondage of God's law, it is abundantly condemned in the Bible.

Gen
{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
2 Peter
{2:19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The title "Christian" means little Christ, any godly work we do is credited to Christ who lives within us.

True. That's why we are not justified by any works we do without Christ, but only His works we do through His faith and Spirit from a pure heart of Christ.

If you work for salvation with a mentality of penance, if you work to please God,

No one is pleasing God by not working to do His will.

John
{6:28} Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

{9:4} I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Work from penance is not working to please God.

Working to please God is not by penance, but by love of God from a pure heart.

What kind of work do you have in mind when you preach this? Is cleaning the alter more justified by Him than cleaning the toilet?

I have nothing to do with your secular religious version of works of God based upon church clean up duties.

I only speak of God's works of righteousness, true holiness, and charity from a pure heart of Christ, as opposed to men's works of their own righteousness, sacrifice, and philanthopy without Christ.

If that includes sweeping or plunging anything in any building at anytime, then so be it.

1 Cor
{10:31} Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

1 Thess
{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Faith and work are two sides of the same coin, one cannot exist without the other. "Faith vs work" is a false dichotomy, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

True. Them that preach saving faith apart from justified works, preach against doing God's will so as to be justified by faith alone.

In order to be justified by faith alone, and not by works, doing any works must be preached against. Including doing the will of God.

To be saved by faith alone, it must be preached that no man may be doing good works of God. No man may do the will of God, in order to be saved by faith alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But by God's criteria, every sin is deadly, no matter how small you think it is. You violate one law, you violate all laws.

True. God commands us all to repent of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, not just some of our own choosing.

The "prosperity gospel" I mentioned was specifically referring to health and wealth, six pack abs and white picket fence. Those are certainly blessings, but only attainable through hard work, none of them comes by "faith alone", that's what I meant.

If you mean through the faith of Jesus alone, then you would do well to make sure you say so.

The doctrine of salvation by faith alone, not by works, is not doing all works by Jesus' faith alone.

I agree with progressive sanctification, what that means is conforming to the image of Christ, you become more and more like Christ and less and less like your older self.

Which is sinful man's religion, not God's pure religion.

Progressive sanctification by gradual repentance, in order to only sin less than before, is the not the whole conversion of Jesus Christ by repentance from dead works.

For all God's chosen people whose name are written in the book of life, eternal salvation is assured

This is not being saved by Jesus' faith alone, which is only given to them that repent of all their sinning for His sake alone.

You're preaching the unconditonal security of the soul being saved by one's own faith alone, with continued sinning . It end in the grave.

{3:4} Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. {3:5} He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

, your work will be tested,

So that only obedience is purified in the fire.

Disobedience deaprts from the Lord, to be punished with the sinful.

And except the prodigal repent, he shall die with the sinners unto condemnation.

Luke
{15:24} For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.