Bible Study The New Covenant

[Quantrill]

I expected you would try to go down this road. You're no longer searching for the truth, you're no longer willing to accept the truth, you just want to win an argument. But you fail to understand that the chances of you winning an argument get smaller the further you move away from the truth.

You stated that the New Covenant is between Jesus and God, and as proof you brought up the "Abrahamic Covenant". I refuted your "proof" by showing you God's own words, that the covenant was "between me and thee". I could add so much more, but seeing that you even reject God's own words, nothing I can add is going to make any difference.

Too bad you refuse to believe God. There is nothing left to say, go down your merry way and see where you will end up.

No, I brought up the Abrahamic Covenant to to show that it came into existence by God swearing upon Himself for it's fulfillment. Something you mocked previously.

I didn't say the Abrahamic Covenant was not made with Abraham. It is. I said the fulfillement of it is not based upon Abraham but upon God. This is perfectly displayed in (Gen. 15:7-17). Abraham didn't pass between the parts. God alone passed between the parts.

Feel free to add all you like.

Quantrill

 

[Tradidi]

I didn't say the Abrahamic Covenant was not made with Abraham. It is. I said the fulfillement of it is not based upon Abraham but upon God.

And I replied that a one sided deal is called a promise, but that a covenant is a two sided deal (two promises or at least one promise and one condition). Therefore, the fulfillment of a covenant depends on two sides sticking to their part of the deal. I clearly showed you those two sides in:

Genesis 17:1-4 — "And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee: and I will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell flat on his face. And God said to him: I am, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations."

And Mungo correctly remarked that there is even more to Abrahams side of the deal further on in Geneses 9-14.

If you think God can "fulfill" the covenant without Abraham sticking to his part of the deal, tell me, what is your definition of the fulfillment of a covenant? And while you're at it, what could God possibly mean when He said in Genesis 17:14: "The male whose flesh of his foreskin shall not be circumcised, that soul shall be destroyed out of his people: because he hath broken my covenant"?

Oh wait, maybe God is still fulfilling His covenant by destroying the souls that break His covenant.. Of course, now I get it, that destroying is also part of the covenant. It's a covenant with two options, either God will save you or He will kill you. Therefore, either way, the ultimate fulfillment of the covenant always depends on God, whether it's saving or killing. It's a "win-win" covenant.

Thanks, I get it now!

 

[Quantrill]

And I replied that a one sided deal is called a promise, but that a covenant is a two sided deal (two promises or at least one promise and one condition). Therefore, the fulfillment of a covenant depends on two sides sticking to their part of the deal. I clearly showed you those two sides in:

Genesis 17:1-4 — "And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee: and I will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell flat on his face. And God said to him: I am, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations."

And Mungo correctly remarked that there is even more to Abrahams side of the deal further on in Geneses 9-14.

If you think God can "fulfill" the covenant without Abraham sticking to his part of the deal, tell me, what is your definition of the fulfillment of a covenant? And while you're at it, what could God possibly mean when He said in Genesis 17:14: "The male whose flesh of his foreskin shall not be circumcised, that soul shall be destroyed out of his people: because he hath broken my covenant"?

Oh wait, maybe God is still fulfilling His covenant by destroying the souls that break His covenant.. Of course, now I get it, that destroying is also part of the covenant. It's a covenant with two options, either God will save you or He will kill you. Therefore, either way, the ultimate fulfillment of the covenant always depends on God, whether it's saving or killing. It's a "win-win" covenant.

Thanks, I get it now!

A covenant with God, and that is what we are talking about, is what God wants it to be. The fulfillment of the Covenant, which is instituted by God, is what He wants it to be.

Yes, God said 'I will multiply thee'. How did Abraham fulfill his part of the Covenant? He was 99 years old. Equally Sarah was on old woman past the point of giving birth. How did Abraham fulfill his role? Both Abraham and Sarah laughed at God for such an idea. How did Abraham 'stick to his deal'?

Circumcision was a sign of the Covenant. It pertained to the individual. It did not affect God in bringing about the fulfillment of the Covenant to Abraham.

I already showed you that Abraham did not keep his side of the supposed deal, as you say. Abraham failed. He doubted God. He tried to have a seed by a slave woman to help God along. He pawned his wife off to save his life. He laughed at God for saying he would have a son. Sarah laughed too. He offered another to not embarrass God. Oh yeah. Abraham really upheld his side...didn't he. Now what?

That which is needed for the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant is laid in (Gen. 12:1-3) The main emphasis is land, seed, blessing. Abraham had to leave UR in order for that Covenant to be established with him. Once that was done, it was now in God's hands to fulfill it. Which He will.

Your last paragraph makes no sense. God always saves or kills. So?

Quantrill

 

[Link1983]

Do you have any scriptural support for the first statement?

The New covenant is made for man..
A new and better covenant than the old!

For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant.
Hebrews 9:15 AMP

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment o | Amplified Bible (AMP) | Download T

For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment o

bible.com

I do encourage you and everyone to always read the full context of any scripture in the Bible..

 

[Link1983]

The new covenant is made for us by God. Jesus is the one who has given us the greatest gift ever given.
To be a part of it.
And to use another word used in the Bible:
It is an inheritance..

 

[Susannah]

Quantrill, in my opinion, you are very opinionated. Out of humility I usually to add words like, "in my opinion," or "I believe." But you are always so dogmatic as if you are absolutely sure you are right. This comes from your ego which is highly developed. Slow down and open your mind and heart to other points of view. Only God knows what he meant in the Bible. We are just speculating and all reading different translations. The last word is that of the Holy Spirit. God sent her to take the place of Jesus when he went home. She inspired the Scriptures. Why would she suddenly become mute and stop talking and inspiring us with new ideas. She wouldn't. As we evolve in intelligence, we are able to understand more and so she has more things to say. Have you ever read the Course of Miracles. It is about how to forgive each other. Remember, next to love in importance comes humility.

Your humble servant,
Susannah

 

[Quantrill]

Quantrill, in my opinion, you are very opinionated. Out of humility I usually to add words like, "in my opinion," or "I believe." But you are always so dogmatic as if you are absolutely sure you are right. This comes from your ego which is highly developed. Slow down and open your mind and heart to other points of view. Only God knows what he meant in the Bible. We are just speculating and all reading different translations. The last word is that of the Holy Spirit. God sent her to take the place of Jesus when he went home. She inspired the Scriptures. Why would she suddenly become mute and stop talking and inspiring us with new ideas. She wouldn't. As we evolve in intelligence, we are able to understand more and so she has more things to say. Have you ever read the Course of Miracles. It is about how to forgive each other. Remember, next to love in importance comes humility.

Your humble servant,
Susannah

No, never heard of it. And, not interested.

Are you saying your knowledge of God is due to 'evolution'? What happened to 'revelation'?

Why should I open my mind and heart to other points of view when I believe what I believe is Scriptural?

You don't trust or believe the Bible. Why should I trust any advice you are trying to give concerning it? Hint...I don't.

Quantrill

 

[Susannah]

Wow! I feel like a hurricane just blew in my window. You are so angry. Where is your humility. You are not God. You don't know everything. In my opinion.

The course of Miracles is about love and forgiveness. It could teach you a lot. But obviously all that matters is things that were written two thousand years ago. So you're welcome to your opinion. You must be a really lonely person. Your anger is contagious. Now I'm getting angry. LOL

 

[Mungo]

Surely you are familiar with the story of the birth of Jesus, are you not?

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him,
and called my son out of Egypt.





Those "houses" were broken off of the vine that they might be grafted back into to true vine.

Surely you are familiar with the story of the birth of Jesus, are you not?

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him,
and called my son out of Egypt.

As Tradidi said you need to back up a little.

Hosea is referring to Israel as a nation.
If we go back to Exodus we find God referring to Israel (the nation) as his first-born son (Ex 4:22 & 23)

Matthew then takes that as a prophecy of the Jesus. But that does not mean Jesus is Israel.

 

[Mungo]

(Heb. 8:6) says Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant. (Matt. 26:28) says Jesus blood is the basis of the New Covenant. (Heb. 7:21-22) says Jesus is the Priest of the New Covenant).

When the LORD, sware that the Messiah, would be the Priest and surety of the New Covenant, that Covenant was between the Father and Son. (Ps. 110:4) (Heb. 7:21-22). When all power and authority, (Matt. 28:18) is given to Christ, whose obedience was necessary for that Covenant to be implemented, (Rom. 5:19), then the Covenant is between the Father and the Son.

Quantrill

None of those quotes except Heb 7:21-22 mention covenant. You are trying to add 2+2 and making 10
Heb 7:21-22 only say that Jesus will be the surety of a better covenant.
Nothing there says the covenant is between Father and Son.

 

[Mungo]

No, I explained. The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son. The New Covenant is made with and for the house of Israel. It is not dependent on Israel for the fulfillment of this Covenant. It is only dependent on Christ, the Son. Just as the Abrahamic Covenant is made with Abraham, but it is not dependent on Abraham for it's fulfillment. It is depended on God.

Quantrill

You gave me your opinion that the New Covenant is between the Father and the Son. You haven't given me a single verse that says that.
If the New Covenant is between the Father and Son how can it be made with and for the house of Israel?
And what about the house of Judah mentioned in Jer 31:31?

 

[Mungo]

The New covenant is made for man..
A new and better covenant than the old!

For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant.
Hebrews 9:15 AMP

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment o | Amplified Bible (AMP) | Download T

For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment o

bible.com

I do encourage you and everyone to always read the full context of any scripture in the Bible..

The issue, which you haven't adressed is Quantrill's claim that the New Covenant is between the Father and the Son.

 

[Mungo]

That which is needed for the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant is laid in (Gen. 12:1-3) The main emphasis is land, seed, blessing. Abraham had to leave UR in order for that Covenant to be established with him. Once that was done, it was now in God's hands to fulfill it. Which He will.

Quantrill

As I suggested in post #31, Gen 12:103 were only promises not a Covenant. It was the first step towards the Covenants with Abraham. But as Tradidi showed there were things Abraham had to do. One of those was obedience both in terms of circumcision and later in sacrificing Isaac.

Subsequently all those in the Covenant had to circumcise male children on the eight day. Yes it was a sign of the Covenant but it was part of the Covenant.
This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Gen 17:10-14, RSV)

If it was not done they were cut off from the Covenant. That is why God was so angry with Moses that he hadn't circumcised his son (Ex 4:24-26)

 

[Quantrill]

Wow! I feel like a hurricane just blew in my window. You are so angry. Where is your humility. You are not God. You don't know everything. In my opinion.

The course of Miracles is about love and forgiveness. It could teach you a lot. But obviously all that matters is things that were written two thousand years ago. So you're welcome to your opinion. You must be a really lonely person. Your anger is contagious. Now I'm getting angry. LOL

I don't know how you expect my humility to be expressed. If by that you mean I need to agree with you, then I will never be humble. Of course I don't know everything. But I have access to a Book that does.

Quantrill

 

[Link1983]

The issue, which you haven't adressed is Quantrill's claim that the New Covenant is between the Father and the Son.

Yes.. this is definitely a true statement (in my personal opinion)
Yet every Christian believer have part in the new covenant through Jesus Christ.
This is its core purpose.
It's called salvation..

It's really a covenant made for us!
By a man called Jesus!

 

[Quantrill]

None of those quotes except Heb 7:21-22 mention covenant. You are trying to add 2+2 and making 10
Heb 7:21-22 only say that Jesus will be the surety of a better covenant.
Nothing there says the covenant is between Father and Son.

If the Covenant is not between the Father and the Son, who is it with? If the Covenant is not between the Father and the Son, then why is Christ's obedience necessary? If the Son is being obedient, then there is a covenant.

The exact words are not in the Bible that Adam and Eve were in a covenant relationship with God. But they were. They were given the Garden to keep. They were given laws on how they were live and what they should not do. Is that a covenant or not? (Gen. 1:28-30) (Gen. 2:15-17)

1.) Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant. (Heb. 8:6)
2.) Jesus blood is the basis of the New Covenant. (Matt. 26:28)
3.) Jesus is the Priest of the New Covenant sworn by the Father. (Ps. 110:4) (Heb. 7:21-22)
4.) Jesus is the surety or the guarantee of the New Covenant. (Heb. 7:22)
5.) Jesus obedience alone enables the New Covenant to be implemented. (Rom. 5:19)

So, again, tell me who the Father made the New Covenant with? It already exists. Israel will be brought into it, but not yet. So, who did He make it with?

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant as the Covenant is between Him and the Father. His blood is the basis for that Covenant. (Matt. 26:28) "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." How can that not be a Covenant between Christ and the Father?

It is not between man and God. The Old Covenant was between Israel and God. This is why it was necessary for the people to ratify the Covenant. (Ex. 24:7-8) Thus the Gentile world was not under the Old Covenant. Only Israel.

We as Christians don't ratify anything concerning the New Covenant. We came into that Covenant by faith in Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

The New Covenant is the renewed Covenant.

The Covenant between The Lord (Jesus) before He became flesh and Abraham. This covenant has been renewed or refreshed and has become the New Covenant.

Abraham walked in Covenant with the same Lord as we do today. His mandate for walking in Covenant relationship has not changed.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

• walk before Me and be blameless
• Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

We as Gentiles are grafted into this covenant in Christ.

We are Abraham’s descendants through faith.

• you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Romans 11:13-18


Which is why we are called sons of Abraham.


And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Genesis 17:7


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 3:7-9

• Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

• I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you

JLB

 

[Quantrill]

You gave me your opinion that the New Covenant is between the Father and the Son. You haven't given me a single verse that says that.
If the New Covenant is between the Father and Son how can it be made with and for the house of Israel?
And what about the house of Judah mentioned in Jer 31:31?

See post (56).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

As I suggested in post #31, Gen 12:103 were only promises not a Covenant. It was the first step towards the Covenants with Abraham. But as Tradidi showed there were things Abraham had to do. One of those was obedience both in terms of circumcision and later in sacrificing Isaac.

Subsequently all those in the Covenant had to circumcise male children on the eight day. Yes it was a sign of the Covenant but it was part of the Covenant.
This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Gen 17:10-14, RSV)

If it was not done they were cut off from the Covenant. That is why God was so angry with Moses that he hadn't circumcised his son (Ex 4:24-26)

Yes circumcision is a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. It was given later. The Abrahamic Covenant begins in (Gen. 12:1-3). That it will be accomplished and fulfilled by God is clear for God says clearly, "I will".

Just like the New Covenant, (Jer. 31:31-34), God declares "I will".

Just because God takes on the responsibility to fulfill these Covenants, does not mean the promises are not part of the Covenant.

Quantrill

 

[Mungo]

See post (56).

Quantrill

Post #56 does not answer the point made. You didn't even address it.