Bible Study The New Covenant

[Mungo]

Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant as the Covenant is between Him and the Father.

Moses was the mediator between Israel and God. But the Covenant was not between God and Moses.

His blood is the basis for that Covenant. (Matt. 26:28) "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." How can that not be a Covenant between Christ and the Father?

It is not between man and God. The Old Covenant was between Israel and God. This is why it was necessary for the people to ratify the Covenant. (Ex. 24:7-8) Thus the Gentile world was not under the Old Covenant. Only Israel.

Mt 26:28 doesn't say that Jesus's blood is the basis of the Covenant. It says his blood is shed for the remission of sins. That is one of the blessings of the Covenant - that our sins can be forgiven. It says nothing about the parties to the Covenant.
It seems you have no actual scriptures to support your claim.

There is another passage that your theory does not explain. Hebrews 8:8 says
“The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah;" (RSV)
How do you explain that?

We as Christians don't ratify anything concerning the New Covenant. We came into that Covenant by faith in Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

I agree with the first sentence. But we come into the Covenant by Baptism. However perhaps we should not get into another baptism thread.

Mungo

 

[Quantrill]

Moses was the mediator between Israel and God. But the Covenant was not between God and Moses.




Mt 26:28 doesn't say that Jesus's blood is the basis of the Covenant. It says his blood is shed for the remission of sins. That is one of the blessings of the Covenant - that our sins can be forgiven. It says nothing about the parties to the Covenant.
It seems you have no actual scriptures to support your claim.

There is another passage that your theory does not explain. Hebrews 8:8 says
“The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah;" (RSV)
How do you explain that?



I agree with the first sentence. But we come into the Covenant by Baptism. However perhaps we should not get into another baptism thread.

Mungo

That's why the people in Moses day had to ratify the Covenant. No such ratification exists with the Christian and the New Covenant.

If the New Covenant is not based upon Jesus blood, what is it based on? Yes, Jesus blood is the basis of the New Covenant. Jesus performance is the basis for the Covenant. That is because the continuance and blessings of that Covenant are based upon Jesus Christ. It is not based upon the people agreeing to it and ratifying it, as they did with the Mosaic Covenant. It seems you are mistaken.

That's why the people had to ratify the covenant as I showed. They agreed to the terms. Such is not the case with the Christian. He is a recipient of the benefits of the New Covenant. But he enters into it only by faith in Christ.

Concerning (Heb. 8:8), why do you ask me? Are you afraid to tell me about (Heb. 8:8). You go ahead and explain to me (Heb. 8:8) and how it disagrees with what I said. Then I will give an explanation.

Sorry, we as Christians don't come into the Covenant by baptism. Where in the world did you get that?

Quantrill

 

[Tradidi]

Covenant: an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.

To claim that the covenant would be between Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, and God, the first person of the Trinity would be saying that God is making an agreement with Himself. That would be a vow or a promise, not a covenant. For something to be a covenant it must be between two different parties, and not between God and God, as God is One.

The Covenant in the Old Testament was between God and the People of Israel, who entered into the agreement through circumcision, with Moses as the mediator between the two. God's part of the agreement was blessings and salvation, and man's part of the agreement was to keep the commandments of God. That covenant was broken on the side of the People of Israel every time they disobeyed the commandments of God.

The Covenant of the New Testament is between God and all people that enter into that agreement through baptism, with Jesus as the mediator between the two. God's part of the agreement is still blessings and salvation, and man's part of the agreement is still obedience, but this time the obedience is to a commandment that Jesus confirmed as "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself." That covenant can also be "broken" on our side by disobeying this new commandment, in other words by anything we do that is incompatible with the love of God and the love of neighbour, which we call sin.

I put "broken" in quotation marks, because St. John teaches us in 1 John 5:16 that there are two different kinds of sin: a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. The sin unto death breaks the covenant, but a sin not unto death damages or endangers the covenant.

 

[Quantrill]

Covenant: an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.

To claim that the covenant would be between Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, and God, the first person of the Trinity would be saying that God is making an agreement with Himself. That would be a vow or a promise, not a covenant. For something to be a covenant it must be between two different parties, and not between God and God, as God is One.

The Covenant in the Old Testament was between God and the People of Israel, who entered into the agreement through circumcision, with Moses as the mediator between the two. God's part of the agreement was blessings and salvation, and man's part of the agreement was to keep the commandments of God. That covenant was broken on the side of the People of Israel every time they disobeyed the commandments of God.

The Covenant of the New Testament is between God and all people that enter into that agreement through baptism, with Jesus as the mediator between the two. God's part of the agreement is still blessings and salvation, and man's part of the agreement is still obedience, but this time the obedience is to a commandment that Jesus confirmed as "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself." That covenant can also be "broken" on our side by disobeying this new commandment, in other words by anything we do that is incompatible with the love of God and the love of neighbour, which we call sin.

I put "broken" in quotation marks, because St. John teaches us in 1 John 5:16 that there are two different kinds of sin: a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. The sin unto death breaks the covenant, but a sin not unto death damages or endangers the covenant.

Nice observation. And that is what God did.

(Heb. 6:13) "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by Himself...."

The fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant is based on God alone. Not man.

Quantrill

 

[Tradidi]

Nice observation. And that is what God did.

(Heb. 6:13) "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by Himself...."

The fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant is based on God alone. Not man.

Quantrill

Genesis 17:1-4 — "And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee: and I will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell flat on his face. And God said to him: I am, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations."

God made a Covenant between Himself and Abraham, a "covenant between me and thee" and "my covenant is with thee".

Abraham's part of the deal was to "walk before me, and be perfect".

God's part of the deal was His promise "I will multiply thee exceedingly" and "thou shalt be a father of many nations".

God's part of the deal is called a promise, because it is the part of one side of the covenant, not the covenant itself. In other words, a covenant is made of two promises by two parties (or at the very least, one promise and one condition).

The fulfillment of God's side of the covenant depends on God alone. The fulfillment of Abraham's side of the covenant depends on Abraham alone (but as always, with the help of God's grace).

 

[Quantrill]

Genesis 17:1-4 — "And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee: and I will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell flat on his face. And God said to him: I am, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations."

God made a Covenant between Himself and Abraham, a "covenant between me and thee" and "my covenant is with thee".

Abraham's part of the deal was to "walk before me, and be perfect".

God's part of the deal was His promise "I will multiply thee exceedingly" and "thou shalt be a father of many nations".

God's part of the deal is called a promise, because it is the part of one side of the covenant, not the covenant itself. In other words, a covenant is made of two promises by two parties (or at the very least, one promise and one condition).

The fulfillment of God's side of the covenant depends on God alone. The fulfillment of Abraham's side of the covenant depends on Abraham alone (but as always, with the help of God's grace).

The fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant depends on God alone. This is why He sware by Himself.

When you say "with the help of God's grace' you immediately negate 'alone'. You immediately acknowledge it is all of God.

That it was made with Abraham, yes. That Abraham needed to leave Ur and go to Palestine, yes. Abraham continued to grow and mature as a believer, though failing constantly. Even in the verses you mentioned, Abraham laughed in the face of God...as did Sarah. (Gen. 17:17, 18:12) And he offered Ishamael instead. (17:18)

Seems like he was having a hard time doing his part. But, it didn't matter. The fulfillment of the Covenant was based upon God. And so it is in place still today and forever.

As to the New Covenant, the Christian comes into it. He is a recipient of it when he places faith in Christ. No terms for him to agree to in order to fulfill the Covenant. Of course in order to experience the blessings involved ones walk is all important. But those are not part of an agreement to establish and maintain the New Covenant. The establishment of the New Covenant was based upon the obedience of One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:19)

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

It's important to note that the New Covenant was promised to Israel. See (Jer. 31:31-34) And in these verses God says repetitively "I will". "I will make a new covenant", "I will put my law in their inward parts", "I will forgive their iniquity", "I will remember their sin no more"

He then makes a promise, much like as He sware on Himself concerning the Abrahamic Covenant. In (Jer. 31:35-37) He states that He would always be faithful to Israel. Only if the Sun and Moon ceased, and the heaven could be measured would Israel cease as a nation before Him.

The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel. But it is not dependent on them for the fulfillment of it. It is dependent on them, in order to experience the blessings of that Covenant, to be in a right relationship with God. The New Covenant is in place already, but Israel as a nation has yet to come into it. Some individuals have, yes. But I am talking about Israel as a nation.

So, even though Israel is a dispersed and rebellious nation, before God she is still a nation. And due to the promise He made in (Jer. 31), we know He will accomplish it and bring Israel into the New Covenant.

Quantrill

 

[Susannah]

I believe the new covenant is between God and mankind. Christ was the sacrifice God made to seal the covenant.

 

[Mungo]

That's why the people in Moses day had to ratify the Covenant. No such ratification exists with the Christian and the New Covenant.

If the New Covenant is not based upon Jesus blood, what is it based on? Yes, Jesus blood is the basis of the New Covenant. Jesus performance is the basis for the Covenant. That is because the continuance and blessings of that Covenant are based upon Jesus Christ. It is not based upon the people agreeing to it and ratifying it, as they did with the Mosaic Covenant. It seems you are mistaken.

That's why the people had to ratify the covenant as I showed. They agreed to the terms. Such is not the case with the Christian. He is a recipient of the benefits of the New Covenant. But he enters into it only by faith in Christ.

Concerning (Heb. 8:8), why do you ask me? Are you afraid to tell me about (Heb. 8:8). You go ahead and explain to me (Heb. 8:8) and how it disagrees with what I said. Then I will give an explanation.

Sorry, we as Christians don't come into the Covenant by baptism. Where in the world did you get that?

Quantrill

Let's go back to the start of this conversation and leave the diversions for now.

You stated "The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son".
I asked " Do you have any scriptural support for the first statement?"
The only scriptural support you provided was Heb 8:6 which does not say what you claimed.

Have you any scriptural support or is it just your opinion?

 

[Mungo]

The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel.

Quantrill

You stated earlier "The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son". Have you changed your mind?

 

[Mungo]

Covenant: an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.

In the Ancient Near East (ANE), some covenants may have involved agreements but the main purpose of the covenant was to bring the parties to the covenant into a relationship - some say stronger than a blood relationship.

There were three types of covenant:
1. A parity covenant between two people or groups of roughly equal sranding. Such a covenant was made between David and Jonathan (1Sam 18:3).
2. A suzerainty covenant between a great lord and his vassals. There were two types of these:
a) A grant or promise covenant where the great lord said " I will do this..." Such a covenant was that between God and Abraham.
b) A conditional covenant where there were obligations on the vassals. Such a covenant was that between God and Israel at Sinai.

 

[ezrider]

You stated earlier "The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son". Have you changed your mind?

Do you know that Jesus is referred to as Israel my Son?

 

[Mungo]

Do you know that Jesus is referred to as Israel my Son?

No I didn't.
Verse please.

But in any case Jer 31:31 that Quantrill referred to does not say "Israel" or "house of Israel" as he claimed but "house of Israel and house of Judah"

 

[Tradidi]

The fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant depends on God alone. This is why He sware by Himself.

When you say "with the help of God's grace' you immediately negate 'alone'. You immediately acknowledge it is all of God.

I expected you would try to go down this road. You're no longer searching for the truth, you're no longer willing to accept the truth, you just want to win an argument. But you fail to understand that the chances of you winning an argument get smaller the further you move away from the truth.

You stated that the New Covenant is between Jesus and God, and as proof you brought up the "Abrahamic Covenant". I refuted your "proof" by showing you God's own words, that the covenant was "between me and thee". I could add so much more, but seeing that you even reject God's own words, nothing I can add is going to make any difference.

Too bad you refuse to believe God. There is nothing left to say, go down your merry way and see where you will end up.

 

[ezrider]

No I didn't.
Verse please.

Surely you are familiar with the story of the birth of Jesus, are you not?

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him,
and called my son out of Egypt.

But in any case Jer 31:31 that Quantrill referred to does not say "Israel" or "house of Israel" as he claimed but "house of Israel and house of Judah"

Those "houses" were broken off of the vine that they might be grafted back into to true vine.

 

[Mungo]

I expected you would try to go down this road. You're no longer searching for the truth, you're no longer willing to accept the truth, you just want to win an argument. But you fail to understand that the chances of you winning an argument get smaller the further you move away from the truth.

You stated that the New Covenant is between Jesus and God, and as proof you brought up the "Abrahamic Covenant". I refuted your "proof" by showing you God's own words, that the covenant was "between me and thee". I could add so much more, but seeing that you even reject God's own words, nothing I can add is going to make any difference.

Too bad you refuse to believe God. There is nothing left to say, go down your merry way and see where you will end up.

Interestingly one source I read said that God made three covenants with Abraham. In Gen 12:1-3 he makes three promises:
"I will make of you a great nation, [promise 1]
and I will bless you, and make your name great, [promise 2]
so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves.” [promise 3]

Later he raised each promise to a covenant - Gen15, 17, 22 respectively.
In the one you mentioned earlier (Gen 17:1-4) there is more for Abraham to do than "walk before me, and be perfect ". Read verses 9-14.

 

[Quantrill]

I believe the new covenant is between God and mankind. Christ was the sacrifice God made to seal the covenant.

The New Covenant is dependent only on Jesus Christ for it's fulfillment. It is not a Covenant made with all mankind. It is made with Israel. (Jer. 31:31) "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah."

All mankind definitely are recepients of this Covenant, if they come to Christ by faith.

In other words, the Old Covenant, the Law, was to Israel. The New Covenant is not to the Church, but to Israel also. But we who believe, come into that Covenant, that Israel up to this time has rejected as a nation.

There are no terms for you to agree on in order to ratify the New Covenant. You enter into only by faith in Jesus Christ.

Israel hasn't yet come into that Covenant. But...she will.

Quantrill

 

[Tradidi]

Do you know that Jesus is referred to as Israel my Son?

Surely you are familiar with the story of the birth of Jesus, are you not?

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him,
and called my son out of Egypt.

I think you need to back up a little. There's an Equivocation fallacy being used here.

The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel.

You stated earlier "The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son". Have you changed your mind?

Do you know that Jesus is referred to as Israel my Son?

Jacob is the first one to be called Israel. (Genesis 32:27-28, 35:10) Later on the people of Israel, or the nation of Israel were also called Israel. (Deuteronomy 27:9) And in Matthew 2:13 Jesus is portrayed as the fulfillment of the Old Testament type of Israel.

So we have one word that can refer to three different persons/people. But Quantrill's original quote clearly said "the house of Israel", so he was NOT referring to Jacob as Israel or to Jesus as Israel, but to the people of Israel.

Therefore, Mungo's observation was quite valid: has Quantrill changed his mind?

 

[Quantrill]

Let's go back to the start of this conversation and leave the diversions for now.

You stated "The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son".
I asked " Do you have any scriptural support for the first statement?"
The only scriptural support you provided was Heb 8:6 which does not say what you claimed.

Have you any scriptural support or is it just your opinion?

(Heb. 8:6) says Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant. (Matt. 26:28) says Jesus blood is the basis of the New Covenant. (Heb. 7:21-22) says Jesus is the Priest of the New Covenant).

When the LORD, sware that the Messiah, would be the Priest and surety of the New Covenant, that Covenant was between the Father and Son. (Ps. 110:4) (Heb. 7:21-22). When all power and authority, (Matt. 28:18) is given to Christ, whose obedience was necessary for that Covenant to be implemented, (Rom. 5:19), then the Covenant is between the Father and the Son.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You stated earlier "The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son". Have you changed your mind?

No, I explained. The New Covenant is between the Father and the Son. The New Covenant is made with and for the house of Israel. It is not dependent on Israel for the fulfillment of this Covenant. It is only dependent on Christ, the Son. Just as the Abrahamic Covenant is made with Abraham, but it is not dependent on Abraham for it's fulfillment. It is depended on God.

Quantrill