n2thelight
Member
The nation of Israel is the fig tree,thus 1948 is significant.....
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The Pre Tribulation Rapture: Fact or Fiction?
- Thread starter Jason Borrego
- Start date
The nation of Israel is the fig tree,thus 1948 is significant.....
jasoncran
Member
in context that is about when the times are nigh. it also says in the same verse when ye shall all these things look up for thy redemption is nigh. one of verse says that the city of Jerusalem is desolated. all means all.
Luke also is talking about the same thing.
both mention that fig tree.
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke also is talking about the same thing.
both mention that fig tree.
Hello,
Like I said I just wanted to throw in some thoughts.
I do believe that I cannot offer much more to you.
The study of the rapture is a pretty in depth study and needs to start from the right Biblical perspective. And that perspective is the distinctions between Israel and the Church.
If one does not see the distinctions of these 2 groups, it will be impossible to have a true study on the rapture.
The reason I say this is because of the "elect" that you mention. I believe that the "elect" that you mention are Jews and unbelievers that came to believe after the church was raptured out(tribulation saints). And if we can not agree on that, our discussion falls apart and can Go no further.
Thanks nice to know your not alone...
Distinctions Between Israel and the Church:
Israel
Church
Shadow Christology
Historical Christology
Covenants
Baptism of the Spirit
Jewish Client Nation
Gentile Client Nations
Old Testament Canon
New Testament Canon
Shekinah Glory indwelt the Holy of Holies
Every Believer indwelt by the Shekinah Glory
1% were endued with power
100% Availability of divine power
Faith Rest Drill
Filling of the Spirit
JHWH-Jehovah Elohim
Iesou Christou-Jesus Christ
Limited spiritual gifts
Every believer has a spiritual gift
Levitical Priesthood
Universal Royal Priesthood
Mosaic Law
Mystery Doctrine
Ritual Plan of God
XXII. Plan of God for the Church Age
Earthly Promises
Heavenly Citizenship
New Racial Species
New Spiritual Species
Prophecy
No Prophecy-Historical Trends
Visible Heroes
Invisible Heroes
Extraordinary believer
Ordinary believer
Incomplete Canon of Scripture
Completed Canon of Scripture
Visible signs preceding 2nd Advent
No visible signs preceding Rapture
There are 7 great features that are distinct in each of these unconditional covenants to Israel: (1) Israel will be a nation forever. (2) Israel will possess a significant portion of land forever. (3) Israel will have a King ruler over her forever. (4) Israel will have a throne from which Christ will ruler, forever. (5) Israel will have a kingdom forever.
God will make a New Covenant with them in the future. As a result of this New Covenant, there will be abiding blessings.
The New Covenant with Israel was based upon the voluntary death of the impeccable humanity of Christ in hypostatic union. Luke 22:20, “And in the same way {He took} the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” 1 Cor 11:25, “In the same way {He took} the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it}, in remembrance of Me.” The Lord Jesus Christ is the mediator of this New Covenant to Israel. Heb 12:24a, “and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.”
Israel is always promised earthly things....the new earth.
The Church is always promised heavenly things.....the new heavens.
I pretty much line up with you. If we cannot see the Distinct policy differences God has with the Church and Israel, Each side of the argument has no chance to go anywhere.
Was Noah less a child of God then Abraham? Was Abraham less a child of God then Paul? Was Luke the Greek less a child of God then Noah Abe or Paul?
Jason has Jewish blood by birth is he more Christian , more a child of God then I?
I see a continuance God talking with Adam .... God talks with us .... He has had His people from the beginning. Abraham did not over ride Noah... and on down the line...
IT was never the blood in our veins it is/was the Blood of The Lamb
Jason has Jewish blood by birth is he more Christian , more a child of God then I?
I see a continuance God talking with Adam .... God talks with us .... He has had His people from the beginning. Abraham did not over ride Noah... and on down the line...
IT was never the blood in our veins it is/was the Blood of The Lamb
There is no distinction between the true Israel and the church. Paul said in Romans chapter 11 that Gentile believers are grafted into Israel. Paul said in Galatians 3:29 that all in Christ inherit the promises made to Abraham. So why do you go against what Paul says? You believe the "elect" to be unbelievers??? That is absurd. Unbelievers are judged and cast into hell...the elect are the children of God who are granted eternal life.
1
10s3r
Guest
Every use of the word "elect" in the New Testament always refers to Christians...never to non-Christian Jews. Check this out for yourself if you wish, in the following verses using "elect." (chosen same word)
Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
Revelation 17:14
This list of evidence doesn't seem to matter to pre-tribulationist. They refuse to accept the elect of Matthew 24 as Christians.
My good brother.....brother John said,
My good brother.....brother John said,
We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7), that it entails angels gathering Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14), that the gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17), and that God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe this verse is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why? Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation."
Rather than humbly accepting a post-tribulation rapture, then, and rather than admitting that the Bible has concrete language to that end, they attempt to undermine all by altering the meaning of one word, "elect," so that it becomes a reference to the Jews alone, and not at all to Christians. The Church is thereby removed from the text and, therefore, from the event completely. This is serious infringement; the entire discourse here on the end times is affected...we are no longer led to view the bulk of Matthew 24 as a warning for Christians, but solely for Jews.
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n2thelight
Member
Can a rapturist please explain to me,how this rapture could happen at any moment,when Christ told us everything that must and shall happen before His return????
Now I know there will be some who will say,those things were for His second coming,which you all say is different than the rapture...If that's the case why the warnings,if you all not gonna be here????
Now I know there will be some who will say,those things were for His second coming,which you all say is different than the rapture...If that's the case why the warnings,if you all not gonna be here????
n2thelight
Member
The elect are and were the most important people God put on this earth,they were chosen before the foundation of this world,to be used by God to insure His Word comes to pass exactly as it is written......There is no way in the world an elect of God can be anything other than a Christian....
Take a look at the below verses and tell me how you can believe that they are not Christian,not only Christian,but sealed with the word of God......
Ive said on a number of posts,that the trib will be all about deception,it will be a deception so great that had God not shortened the time,even they would believe the lie,and that lie is satan pretending to be Christ........
Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
"Those days" are the days of this tribulation. If God did not shorten the time and reign of the Antichrist, no man in the flesh body would be spiritually saved, and not deceived by Satan the Antichrist. Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that this time of the Antichrist, the desolator, was one half of one week of years. That is one half of seven years, and it has been shortened to five [5] months.
Revelation 9:5; "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man." God lets us know not only that it will be five months, but that it will be specific five months. It will be the five months of the locust. May through September.
Ephesians 6 tells us the purpose that God's elect will be on earth, and it will be to fight against Satan, and those wicked spiritual powers. That is why you need the spiritual armor on and in place, for the warfare will be a spiritual battle, fought will words and ideas, it will be fought with the very word of God, for Satan will twist that Word, to make it a lie, when he and his forces use it against you.
Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."
Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
When Satan appears, he will come showing all his supernatural wonders. As it is written in Revelation 13:113, 14; "And he [Satan, the Antichrist] doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire [lightning bolts] come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." [13] "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast should be killed." [14]
Satan is an supernatural person, as we saw from Ezekiel 28, and you can stand against him if you are prepared from the word of God. He tells us not to fret and worry, and not to even premeditate our words, when called up to give account of ourselves, for the Holy Spirit will place the words within our mouths, and give is the words to say at the right time.
A non Christian will not be able to do what needs to be done in these end times!!!!!And flying away is not one of them!!!!!!
In 1 Thess. 4:15-17 it says, “15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming(3952) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You will see “the” before the word “coming.” This makes the “coming” a definite article which is singular. In contrast as if it were “a coming” it would mean one of many comings.
The Greek word for “coming” used here is Parousia and means Advent. The Strong’s Concordance number is 3952. In the Merriam Webster dictionary the word Advent as used in the bible means, “The Second Coming of Christ.”
This Advent or Parousia of Christ in 1 Thess. 4:15-17 is commonly known as the Rapture of the Church and is the definite article. Everytime you have this particular word used it must be held to the single event of the rapture. Let's see where else we find it in the bible.
.
The word Parousia is used 18 times when relating to Christ in the New Testament and every time used it refers to the Rapture event as established in verse 15 where we can see it as a definite article.
If we now look in 2 Thess. Chapter 2 it reads, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
We see the Parousia of Christ used twice here. I want you to take a look at verse 8. Jesus is going to also take care of Wicked 459 (Lawless) , the Anti-Christ at the same time He raptures us up to Himself. The word used here “destroy”2673 means to render idle or useless. So that doesn’t mean that Jesus is going to kill the Anti-Christ. It only means that He is going to incapacitate him.
Seeing that this Rapture event takes place while the Anti-Christ is revealed and already on the scene tells us that the event takes place at a minimum of the middle of the seven year tribulation period of later. This way we can see the timing of the Rapture in relationship to the seven year period.
Just a side note: the word Parousia is not found anywhere in Revelation chapter 19 when Christ returns to earth with His army. Logically so because the Rapture has already taken place before that time so the word representing it is not found.
FYI
The 18 places Parousia is used in the New Testament in reference to Jesus:
Matt 24: 3,27,37,39,48 1 Co 15:23 1 Thess 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 15:23 2 Thess 2:1,8
James 5:7,8 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12 1 John 2:28
The way I see it is prepare for the worst and hope for the best. If it's pre-trib great but if not at least we are prepared for it. Also only the last part of the seven years is God's wrath which we are not to experience. Prior to that it's Satan's wrath
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You will see “the” before the word “coming.” This makes the “coming” a definite article which is singular. In contrast as if it were “a coming” it would mean one of many comings.
The Greek word for “coming” used here is Parousia and means Advent. The Strong’s Concordance number is 3952. In the Merriam Webster dictionary the word Advent as used in the bible means, “The Second Coming of Christ.”
This Advent or Parousia of Christ in 1 Thess. 4:15-17 is commonly known as the Rapture of the Church and is the definite article. Everytime you have this particular word used it must be held to the single event of the rapture. Let's see where else we find it in the bible.
.
The word Parousia is used 18 times when relating to Christ in the New Testament and every time used it refers to the Rapture event as established in verse 15 where we can see it as a definite article.
If we now look in 2 Thess. Chapter 2 it reads, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
We see the Parousia of Christ used twice here. I want you to take a look at verse 8. Jesus is going to also take care of Wicked 459 (Lawless) , the Anti-Christ at the same time He raptures us up to Himself. The word used here “destroy”2673 means to render idle or useless. So that doesn’t mean that Jesus is going to kill the Anti-Christ. It only means that He is going to incapacitate him.
Seeing that this Rapture event takes place while the Anti-Christ is revealed and already on the scene tells us that the event takes place at a minimum of the middle of the seven year tribulation period of later. This way we can see the timing of the Rapture in relationship to the seven year period.
Just a side note: the word Parousia is not found anywhere in Revelation chapter 19 when Christ returns to earth with His army. Logically so because the Rapture has already taken place before that time so the word representing it is not found.
FYI
The 18 places Parousia is used in the New Testament in reference to Jesus:
Matt 24: 3,27,37,39,48 1 Co 15:23 1 Thess 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 15:23 2 Thess 2:1,8
James 5:7,8 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12 1 John 2:28
The way I see it is prepare for the worst and hope for the best. If it's pre-trib great but if not at least we are prepared for it. Also only the last part of the seven years is God's wrath which we are not to experience. Prior to that it's Satan's wrath
n2thelight
Member
We are not to fear satan,or anyone else that can kill the flesh,only Him who can destroy both body and soul,point being,satan has no wrath ,it's all about deception.....satan cannot force anyone to worship him,people will do so by choice,as they will think he is Christ......
Nicely put, hope you don't mind that I add this...
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
What I mean about Satan's wrath for the first half of the seven years is found in Revelation 13:7-8, " It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Satan will posses the Anti-Christ and come after the saints and overcome them. We will be around for this as this is not God's wrath that comes later. We will refuse to worship the Anti-Christ and he will be gunning for us, probable him and the rest of the world.
:toofunny I have asked them the same thing and just get blank stares.
n2thelight
Member
Your first mistake is in thinking that satan will posses the antichrist,somehow,thinking the a/c to be a mere man,that's a big error...satan is the antichrist,satan comes to earth pretending to be Christ live and in person,along with his angels...This happens after he gets kicked out of heaven by Michael......
The only people satan will kill are the two witnesses, 3 1/2 days after that Christ returns......Those who kill during this time are those that think they do God a favor
John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."
satan can't go around killing people,while at the same time having them believe he is Christ,who would be deceived?
People really don't understand the gravity of the situation,it's not physical,it's all spiritual....I know I keep saying this over and over but I must say it again....It's all about deception!!!!!!
This deception will be so great that had God not shortened the time,every one on earth would be deceived.....The whole world will worship satan,not out of fear but because they will think that he is in fact Christ......
You wanna see people gunning for christians try China,Russia,Middle East,christians have always had groups gunning for them,that's nothing new...This is spiritual warfare
Within Revelation chapter thirteen there is a great deal of symbolism used. It reveals the coming into existence of a one world system, and at the completion of its growth, that world wide system is ruled by Satan the Antichrist, in a religious capacity. In fact, most of the Christian world will actually think that Satan is Jesus Christ. God uses this symbolism so that those who really don't care to study Scripture, will be deceived.
This chapter speaks of two beasts, but when we separate the two beasts, we see one is a political beast, while the second and last beast is a religious beast. The political beast is a political system, and today it is alive and ruling under the name of "One-worldism". It's title is called the "United Nations". It is under the banner of the United Nations, and it's governing agencies the the entire world is getting together; to work for their so-called "peace".
There will be a one world system ,and it will fall apart,this is the deadly wound,when satan arrives pretending to be Christ,he will heal that wound...
Skrumpelnubb
Member
What if the first beast is the islamic messiah Al Mahdi and the second beast is the islamic Jesus "Isa"? Do you know what the muslims themselves believe those two will do when they arrive? You can search the internet for that information.
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