The pretrib fib

[Mysteryman]

No wonder there is so much division within the Church . People can not even agree on the simplist of things that are said within the Word of God.

The Word says, that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, we come back with him, the saints.

Anyone that claims that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, and that when he does come back to this earth, that his purpose is to gather up the church. When the Word tells us that this is not his purpose for coming back ! No wonder the Word tells us, that so many hold to many different doctorines of men.

When clear scripture is compromised, then that scripture is no longer pure.

The Word clearly tells us that when the church is gathered up, we meet him in the clouds. < How much more clear can this be ?

And the Word tells us, that when Christ does come back to this earth, and places one foot on the land and the other foot on the sea, we are coming back with him. < Again, this can not be any more clear !

And even though this has nothing to do with salvation in and of itself. Clear scripture should never be compromised, just so that one can cling to a doctorine view that is clearly not in line with scripture, where clear scripture is so obvious.

Every person needs to be persuaded in their own minds. And my mind is made up !

The belief, that pre trib is a fib, < Is a fib ! Not true ! False !

 

[watchman F]

No wonder there is so much division within the Church . People can not even agree on the simplist of things that are said within the Word of God.

The Word says, that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, we come back with him, the saints.

Anyone that claims that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, and that when he does come back to this earth, that his purpose is to gather up the church. When the Word tells us that this is not his purpose for coming back ! No wonder the Word tells us, that so many hold to many different doctorines of men.

You are right His purpose for returning is not to simply gather the church. It is
#1 to marry His Bride
#2 To judge and purge this world of its wickedness.
#3 To set up His millennial reign.

Only one of His purposes is to gather the church and that would be part of #1 Marrying the Bride.

 

[watchman F]

When clear scripture is compromised, then that scripture is no longer pure.

The Word clearly tells us that when the church is gathered up, we meet him in the clouds. < How much more clear can this be ?

This is true we do meet the Lord in the air

And the Word tells us, that when Christ does come back to this earth, and places one foot on the land and the other foot on the sea, we are coming back with him. < Again, this can not be any more clear !

This is true we are coming with Christ when He comes.

And even though this has nothing to do with salvation in and of itself. Clear scripture should never be compromised, just so that one can cling to a doctorine view that is clearly not in line with scripture, where clear scripture is so obvious.

Every person needs to be persuaded in their own minds. And my mind is made up !

This is where your problem is, you have already made up your mind what you will believe so you compromise the scripture to cling to your false man made belief, even though it couldn't be more obvious that your belief doesn't line up with scripture.

 

[Mysteryman]

No wonder there is so much division within the Church . People can not even agree on the simplist of things that are said within the Word of God.

The Word says, that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, we come back with him, the saints.

Anyone that claims that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, and that when he does come back to this earth, that his purpose is to gather up the church. When the Word tells us that this is not his purpose for coming back ! No wonder the Word tells us, that so many hold to many different doctorines of men.

You are right His purpose for returning is not to simply gather the church. It is
#1 to marry His Bride
#2 To judge and purge this world of its wickedness.
#3 To set up His millennial reign.

Only one of His purposes is to gather the church and that would be part of #1 Marrying the Bride.

#1 if false

#2 is a half truth

#3 is false

There is a huge difference between when he "comes" to gather up the church, and his "return" !

At the end of the fifth seal the saints are gathered up and are under the altar !

Upon his return , this is the final battle - occures during the seventh seal . The mellenium is during the sixth seal. He reigns with the 144,000 virgins - not the saints. The final battle takes palce during the seventh seal. During the seventh seal, the wrath of God is poured out , which includes the final battle - Christ "with" the saints.

It is very simple ! and very clear !

Yes, my mind is made up with the simplicity of the Word of God.

 

[watchman F]

No wonder there is so much division within the Church . People can not even agree on the simplist of things that are said within the Word of God.

The Word says, that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, we come back with him, the saints.

Anyone that claims that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, and that when he does come back to this earth, that his purpose is to gather up the church. When the Word tells us that this is not his purpose for coming back ! No wonder the Word tells us, that so many hold to many different doctorines of men.

You are right His purpose for returning is not to simply gather the church. It is
#1 to marry His Bride
#2 To judge and purge this world of its wickedness.
#3 To set up His millennial reign.

Only one of His purposes is to gather the church and that would be part of #1 Marrying the Bride.

#1 if false

#2 is a half truth

#3 is false

There is a huge difference between when he "comes" to gather up the church, and his "return" !

At the end of the fifth seal the saints are gathered up and are under the altar !

Upon his return , this is the final battle - occures during the seventh seal . The mellenium is during the sixth seal. He reigns with the 144,000 virgins - not the saints. The final battle takes palce during the seventh seal. During the seventh seal, the wrath of God is poured out , which includes the final battle - Christ "with" the saints.

It is very simple ! and very clear !

Yes, my mind is made up with the simplicity of the Word of God.

You are clueless. The main reason Christ returns is the Marry His Bride.
John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This is the main reason he is returning to receive us into Himself.

The next reason is to purge the earth of sin.
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2nd Thess 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Lastly to rule and reign as King of kings. (we being the small k kings)
Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The sooner you cleanse your hand of the false indoctrination you have allowed into your life, and start seeing Christ as Bridegroom, Judge, and King the more acceptable you will be to receiving the truth.

 

[NJBeliever]

Hi NJB

What I think we need to do, is slow down and find a point of reference. What is said in the book of Joel and what is said in the book of Revelation should always line up. Which would include what is said in chapter 12 of Rev. as well as anything said in the gospels as well as the church epistles.

If we start with the seals. And use them as a reference point. We see without any doubt, that the saints are in heaven under the altar before the sixth seal is opened.

I disagree here. We are specifically told that these are MARTYRS. These are not just saints. These are people who have been killed for their testimony. So to think this is the raptured is incorrect. They are who the Bible says they are. Furthermore, this could not be the rapture because they are "souls." They are not yet in glorified bodies, which means the rapture has not occurred yet. I believe these are martyrs from all throughout history. Why? Because that is just the plain reading of the text.

What occurs during the sixth seal lines up with what Joel says. Joel 2:31 states clearly -- "before" the great and the terrible day of the Lord". This lines up perfectly with the comments made of the sixth seal. So the sixth seal is not the wrath of God period. And Joel prophesied that it was not as well, since the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood, is "before" the wrath of God !

Again, it's not just Joel I am citing. I am also citing Isaiah chapter 2. And seriously, I just don't get how people disagree here. The 6th Seal is clearly the fulfillment of Isaiah 2.

Since the fifth seal is clear, that the saints are already in heaven and under the altar before the events of the sixth seal. Then the gathering up had to take place before the sixth seal was opened.

Again, I don't think this is correct. We don't see the Raptured saints until Revelation chapter 7. This is why the martyrs of the 5th seal are told to "wait." God has not risen for the indignation yet. And they are given robes that they will wear at the rapture with the full church. Which is in Chapter 7.

During the sixth seal, we start to see the tribulation of God towards the earth and the inhabitants of the earth. The reason God is telling the four angels to wait, is because some things need to occur before God tells them to hurt the earth.

The sixth seal is a time of tribulation. Not only from God , but also from the evil of those of this earth. During the sixth seal, we have the 144000 virgins that are beheaded and the thousand year reign of Christ with them. (Not us)

None of this is in the Bible. It never once says that this happens during this sixth seal.

We , the Christians have already been gathered up, as explained in the book of Thessalonians. We are not to be troubled, but have comfort, that we are not going to be a part of the tribulation. The sixth seal is the tribulation, but not the great tribulation (wrath of God). WE have been gathered up by Christ , the dead in Christ and all those who are alive at his coming in the clouds.

Again, I think you are making unbiblical distinctions. When precisely are the dead in Christ gathered? I am not sure as to where you're putting that.

The second coming is during the seventh seal, during the wrath of God period. We the saints come back with Christ to this earth. Christ putting one foot on the land and his other foot on the sea.

Wow. Again, where is any of this in the Bible?? Jesus does not come back to Earth until 15 chapters later. I don't understand why we just can't read the Bible the way it's written.

The reason the period of time during the sixth seal is called the tribulation period, is because God starts to shake things up, and putting fear into those who are still here. These who are here on the earth are deceived , but not by God, as God has already revealed many things. They are decieved within their own minds, and only think that the events of the sixth seal are the great and terrible day of the Lord. As we can see , God has the four angels in place ready to go, to unleash His wrath. But God says not to hurth the earth just yet. But those here on earth have concluded in their own minds that these pre -events are that terrible day of the Lord.

Again, there is nothing to support this. Where is the sixth seal called "the tribulation period"? It's the Day of The Lord. The people themselves call it the Day of God's wrath. And people are going to die at the 6th seal. It's going to be a global earthquake that is going to move every island and mountain in the world. Imagine the Tsnuami in southeast Asia times 1000. Now that is what the Bible is saying. So this is more than God scaring people. This is wholesale destruction and millions of deaths in one event.

Again, I am not a pre-trib rapture supporter. The rapture does not precede the first seal. The first seal was opened long ago. The rapture precedes the 6th Seal, which is the signal that the Day of The Lord has started. The multitude of saints in Chapter 7 are the raptured saints. The Second Coming of Christ is after the 7th vial in chapter 19. Everyone knows Christ is coming so the notion that He comes as a "thief in the night" is incorrect and illogical. When He returns, the world will be under the delusion that they can win this battle by supporting the antichrist and Satan. But they will lose. Then Christ throws the beast and false prophet in the lake of fire and imprisons satan for 1,000 years during which Jesus Christ starts his Milennial reign. I hope that clears up my position.

 

[veteran]

[

The 7 seals declare INFORMATION, not chronological order of events.

Where does it ever say this in the Bible?

What you appear to really be saying is, "I've never thought about that before", concerning the seven seals. Maybe you've never taken a closer look at all the events in the seals, and compared them to Matt.24 and Mark 13? Our Lord Jesus was teaching the seven seals in Matt.24 and Mark 13, even before He gave His Book of Revelation through John.

Recall Rev.5 where John wept because there was none found worthy to open the book with seven seals, and then only The Lamb is found worthy to open them. The 1st seal event is entirely out of order with the trumpets, regardless of whether one believes pre-trib or post-trib. That's a hint to not treat the seals in chronological order, but to become sealed in the information they impart.

Again, where do you get this from?? There is nothing out of order with the 6th Seal. Revelation 5 is taking place right after the Ascension of Christ to Heaven. We are not told how much time transpires between the Lamb being praised and "After" when the seal is opened. But really it doesn't matter. I am not a pre-tribber so I don't believe that the end times starts with the 1st seal. But they certainly are opened in sequence (hence them being numbered). And we know Biblically, the seven angels who have trumpets do not even get the trumpets until the seventh seal is opened.

It does matter what order we go by per the seals, trumpets, and vials our Lord gave in Revelation. He gave us the three woe periods with the last three trumpets, and that shows a specific order of events that can't be mixed up or confused. It is a mistake to try and read Revelation as if each chapter follows chronologically. The visions John were given were not always given in chronological order. Six seals are given in Rev.6, yet the events of those seals are further expounded on in later Revelation chapters. Later in Rev.7 & 9, we're given a picture of the saints that are sealed with God's sealing, still on the earth. Then in Rev.12, we're told of the saints which keep the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ being persecuted by the flood that comes out of the dragon's mouth. Then in Rev.14:12-13 it's speaking of the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and have the Faith of Jesus (like the Rev.12:17 verse). And it's said blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth. What's that doing there, if all Revelation chapters flow chronologically? Even in Rev.13:7, we are told the dragon is given power to make war with the SAINTS and overcome them.

Why do you think our Lord Jesus gave the events in His Book of Revelation in such a fashion? It's so we would have to become a 'workman' in ALL of His Word first. It's so we'd have to FIRST understand the events given, and their relation to the rest of The Bible. So the new Christian gets curious, and thinks since they'd believed on Jesus and been baptized, that they automatically should be able to go into Revelation and understand it WITHOUT first studying the majority of God's Word. And what do they do? (I did this too when I first came to Christ, so I'm including myself). They think Revelation should flow progressively, each chapter's events flowing into the next chapter chronologically. After much Bible study, having to go back and actually study the rest of The Bible, one discovers the events in Revelation are not always given chronologically. Then it forces you to actually pay attention to the 'events' given. And after a while, one should see the order given with the 3 woe periods, how they align with the last 3 trumpets. THEN, one should know by that time, our Lord Jesus specifically put those woe periods in order.

It's the 7 TRUMPETS which give the proper order of events for the very end, including the timing of Christ's coming to gather us (recall the "trump" of 1 Thess.4, and the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15?). The 3 woes given with the last three trumpets serve as an anchor for the proper chronological order. The stars falling to earth and untimely figs idea is connected with the 6th seal, which is about Rev.12:6-17, a time of persecution of the saints because of Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth, and the flood that comes out of the dragon's mouth going after the saints on earth. That doesn't show Christ's coming, it shows a time of tribulation upon the saints, per Rev.12:17.

So by your logic Christ should be coming at the 7th trumpet, and yet, we don't see that happen. Dare I say the "Last Trump" is not referring to that trumpet but to the Feast of Trumpets. And again, you are just making Rev 12 and Rev 6 the same event without explaining how or where the Bible indicates this.

Well, what are the events shown in Rev.11 with the 3rd last woe period? If you'll notice, it's when the 7th trumpet sounds, and at that point all the kingdoms on earth become Christ's posession, and He begins His Milennium reign. On what 'trump' did Apostle Paul teach that the event of the resurrection and change at a twinkling of eye happens on? Didn't you notice 1 Thess.4:16 mentions a trump sounding with Christ's coming to gather His saints? All that certainly is logical, so easy a little child can understand it. And I know many young children that do... understand the resurrection and Christ's coming happens on the 7th trumpet, as written.

Now that you've provided more explanation I see that we are much farther off than just rapture models. It's just interpretation of the prophetic scriptures themselves. But again for clarity, I don't believe the first four seals are The Day of The Lord. I think they are opened now, today. And as I've stated, I believe the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord which starts at the 6th Seal.

I don't believe the first four seals are the "day of the Lord" either, nor everything mentioned in the 6th seal (like the untimely figs and falling stars event). The "day of The Lord" begins the first day of Christ's "thousand years" reign on earth. That also is when His coming to gather His saints happens, also when the resurrection happens, and also when the cup of God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked. It ends the "great tribulation", and is the event of Christ's coming to destroy that Wicked (one) of 2 Thess.2.

One of the problems many have with prophecy of the end is wrongly adding time to events at Christ's coming when our Lord showed they happen very quickly. Apostle Paul also showed that quickness when he used the expression, "twinkling of an eye" in 1 Cor.15. And he was pulling from the Old Testament prophets with that, especially Isaiah 25. In one place in Isaiah, our Heavenly Father even uses the sound a vessel makes when it's turned upside down with its contents poured out at once. The idea is that Christ's coming (i.e., what some call the rapture), the resurrection, and God's wrath upon the wicked, all occur very quickly within the same timeframe. Our Lord showed in Rev.11:13-15 the 3rd last woe period and 7th trumpet happen within the "same hour" right after the 2nd woe ends.

 

[NJBeliever]

What you appear to really be saying is, "I've never thought about that before",

Dude, I've heard this "the seals are just information" argument many times in the past. And as my questions indicates, there is no biblical warrant for that statement. So that's why I said, where is this in the Bible? The seals are just what the Bible says they, seals that are keeping a book secure and confidential. What book? The book that God was holding in his Right Hand.

It does matter what order we go by per the seals, trumpets, and vials our Lord gave in Revelation. He gave us the three woe periods with the last three trumpets, and that shows a specific order of events that can't be mixed up or confused. It is a mistake to try and read Revelation as if each chapter follows chronologically. The visions John were given were not always given in chronological order.

Again, there is absolutely no reason to come to this conclusion. The Bible tells us the exact opposite.

Revelation 1:19 19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus ordered John to write in chronological order. You have no Scripture to demonstrate why it would be okay for John to not follow this command. I never get why people just ignore this verse and say Revelation was written in some chaotic, haphazard fashion.

As for your point about saints, it does not seem that compelling. Yes, there are souls of martyrs under the altar. Yes there is a multitude of raptured saints in Chapter 7. The 144,000 being sealed are specifically on a mission from Jesus. The saints who are killed by the Beast are those who convert and refuse to take the mark. All these things are clearly stated in Revelation. it does not indicate some sort of chronological disorder.

Why do you think our Lord Jesus gave the events in His Book of Revelation in such a fashion? It's so we would have to become a 'workman' in ALL of His Word first. It's so we'd have to FIRST understand the events given, and their relation to the rest of The Bible. So the new Christian gets curious, and thinks since they'd believed on Jesus and been baptized, that they automatically should be able to go into Revelation and understand it WITHOUT first studying the majority of God's Word.

Where are you getting this from? Where are we told that Jesus made Revelation a puzzle of some sort to whet our appetites? This is just pure speculation. I don't see this in the Bible. The Word says to be a "workman" but that's in reference to studying the whole Bible.

Well, what are the events shown in Rev.11 with the 3rd last woe period? If you'll notice, it's when the 7th trumpet sounds, and at that point all the kingdoms on earth become Christ's posession, and He begins His Milennium reign. On what 'trump' did Apostle Paul teach that the event of the resurrection and change at a twinkling of eye happens on? Didn't you notice 1 Thess.4:16 mentions a trump sounding with Christ's coming to gather His saints? All that certainly is logical, so easy a little child can understand it. And I know many young children that do... understand the resurrection and Christ's coming happens on the 7th trumpet, as written.

1 Thes 4:16 discusses the Last Trump in reference to Christ coming to meet us in the clouds. Not coming to Earth (the Second Coming). And Again, the last Trump is not a reference to the trumpet judgments, it is a reference to the Last Trump of Rosh Hashanah, the Feast of Trumpets. The blowing of the Shofar is the Last Trump. Jesus already fulfilled the spring feasts in His First Coming. Now the Fall Feasts are being fulfilled. Paul, a former Pharisee is making a specific Jewish reference because he knew the readers were familiar with these things. And if you study the old Testament, you'll know that Rosh Hashanah is the only feast where the people do not know the time or day it will be begin. Not to mention that we don't even see Christ until chapter 19. So again, I think you are really off in your biblical interpretation here.

I don't believe the first four seals are the "day of the Lord" either, nor everything mentioned in the 6th seal (like the untimely figs and falling stars event). The "day of The Lord" begins the first day of Christ's "thousand years" reign on earth. That also is when His coming to gather His saints happens, also when the resurrection happens, and also when the cup of God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked. It ends the "great tribulation", and is the event of Christ's coming to destroy that Wicked (one) of 2 Thess.2.

I keep raising Isaiah 2 to you. The 6th Seal fulfills it. Which means the Day of The lord has begun. Which again means your theory is incorrect. It's just not Biblically supported. Christ's Second Coming and the Day of The Lord are 2 different events. happening at different times.

Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

This is God speaking to the dead. They are going to literally rise form the graves in the same manner Christ did. And they are going to hide in their chambers until the indignation is past. The dead in CHrist rise first. Then we go. Then the Day of The Lord. And this happens at the 6th seal.

 

[veteran]

To think that the Second Coming of Christ is unexpected is also incorrect and completely unsupported by Scripture. It's not a "thief in the night." The entire heathen world knows Christ is coming when they are waiting for Him at Megiddo. And for the 3rd time, anyone who has a bible can just follow all of the trumpets and vial judgments and know exactly what's going to happen right up until Christ comes. Which should be obvious(!). lol. But somehow despite this, you assert, that the whole world of unbelievers are going to be caught off guard even though unprecedented supernatural disasters and occurences are taking place left and right. And Christian believers, who are witnessing the sheer carnage will somehow be in danger of not realize Christ is coming and could be caught unaware?? No chance. Again, this point by itself also proves that post-tribbers are just misreading scripture.

Oh, Christ's coming will most definitely be... very unexpected... for many. That specifically is why our Lord Jesus showed His coming will be "as a thief in the night". It's specifically HIS SERVANTS that are NOT to be taken by surprise. Those who do not remain 'sober' (spiritually), and do not 'watch' as He and His Apostles warned, will be surprised at His coming. In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul iterated upon this very carefully. He said when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" shall come upon 'them'...

1Thes 5:2-7
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

You've missed a very important prophecy about HOW the tribulation peirod will actually be. If you heed authors like Hal Lindsay and the Pre-Trib theorists, you'll get a false picture of all out WWIII, complete chaos, etc. But how is then, that Paul says 'they' (the deceived) will instead be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time just prior to the "sudden destruction"? Have you not understood about the "vile person" event in Daniel, of how he is to come to power using PEACE, and CRAFT will prosper by his hand? And that's the METHOD he uses to destroy with. Does that sound like utter chaos and war just prior to Christ's coming? No.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
(KJV)

Two major metaphors I underlined there for you. One is about the idea of those who 'travail' as a woman with child, and the other is those who are 'drunken in the night'. Apostle Paul did not just make those metaphors up when he wrote that. He was pulling from the Old Testament prophets. Our Lord Jesus covered those two metaphors also in His Olivet Discourse. BOTH metaphors are about the deceived, and it includes the deceived of God's people too.

Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles covered the chaste virgin metaphor, and even showed how there will be five foolish virgins found deceived at His coming. To travail with child is a spiritual metaphor one who was familiar with OT study would catch. Same with the 'drunken in the night' metaphor too, for God first gave that in the OT prophets too. It's about being SPIRITUALLY drunken, in the 'night' (i.e., spiritual darkness). I'm not making this up (see Isa.54 & Luke 23:27-31; Isa.29:9). And it all points to being spiritually deceived.

What does all this mean per Paul in 1 Thess.5 and that "Peace and safety"? The "great tribulation" time is going to be a time of peace and safety, albeit a fake peace and safety. Our Lord Jesus showed us this also, when He said when you hear of wars and rumours of wars, don't be troubled, for the end is not yet. What's the opposite of wars and rumours of wars? A time of peace. And what is happenning right before your eyes with the idea of today's "one world government", all nations joining together? Our Heavenly Father said in Zeph.3 it is His intent to assemble the kingdoms, to join all the nations together for the end, so as to pour out His cup of wrath upon them. That means world peace, one world government, one king coming to rule over it all, but not our Rock Jesus Christ, but 'their' rock. And 'their' rock is coming to put it all together for 'them' (deceived), and give them whatever they want by taking from God's people (Joel).

All that's about the mark of the beast and beast image the dragon is to setup for false worship per Rev.13 in our near future. We're even told in Rev.13 who can make war with the beast? It follows the old Babylon pattern of what Nebuchadnezzar did. The tribulation is going to be very similar to the times like Daniel went through. The WHOLE world will be saying, "Peace and safety", thinking God has come (recall 2 Thess.2:3-4 about the false one who will be over everything and anything that is worshipped.)

But right now, today, we're seeing a contrast to that future "Peace and safety". The false prophets are even preparing the deceived just for that future Peace and safety today. The strife today is designed to make the nations give up their sovreignty in exchange for safety and to demand that "Peace and safety". So the deceived will NOT recognize that event for what it really will be, because they have not understood the "great tribulation" is not upon the deceived, but upon Christ's elect who will NOT be deceived. Rev.9 even shows us the locust army is not even to harm anyone NOT sealed with God's seal, meaning the spiritually deceived, those 'drunk in the night', who 'travail with child' ready to give birth. Our Lord Jesus wants us to REMAIN as a "chaste virgin", waiting on His return, like Paul showed. How is it that so many have not understood how important those spiritual metaphors are which our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave?

 

[NJBeliever]

Oh, Christ's coming will most definitely be... very unexpected... for many. That specifically is why our Lord Jesus showed His coming will be "as a thief in the night". It's specifically HIS SERVANTS that are NOT to be taken by surprise. Those who do not remain 'sober' (spiritually), and do not 'watch' as He and His Apostles warned, will be surprised at His coming. In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul iterated upon this very carefully. He said when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" shall come upon 'them'...

ONce again you are confusing the day of The Lord with Christ's Second Coming. Here are some Biblical points regarding Christ's Second Coming.

1. The UNSAVED heathen armies, their leaders, the antichrist, false prophet and Satan are all going to travel to the valley of megido to wait for Christ to come.

2. The Euphrates river even supernaturally dries up to prepare away for leaders of the east to make it.

3. The satanic trinity release demons who go out to get the people of the world hyped up for the fight and draw them in.

4. Any Christian or anyone with a Bible can just read the trumpet and vial judgments and know the specific order of events.

5. Or they can just start counting 7 prophetic years from the time the Beastor False Prophet confirms a covenant with the people. Or count 3 1/2 years from the abomination of desolation.

The bible completely supports people knowing Christ is coming. Clearly the unbelieving world cannot be caught off guard because they are traveling the globe to go meet Him. And any believers who are alive during the trumpets and vials will be counting the minutes to His return or just reading in their Bibles and following along. Do you really think the points I listed above are false? They're all biblical and show that this is not the "thief in the night" situation.

 

[Mysteryman]

LOL - I am wondering why all this discussing and none has figured out what a "soul" is yet ?

Maybe when you all figure out what a "soul" is, then , just maybe one can discuss in a logical manner. :D

How many of you know that God and the angels have a soul ?

 

[watchman F]

LOL - I am wondering why all this discussing and none has figured out what a "soul" is yet ?

Maybe when you all figure out what a "soul" is, then , just maybe one can discuss in a logical manner. :D

How many of you know that God and the angels have a soul ?

I am pretty sure it is just you that is confused on what a soul is. Secondly not the topic of this thread.

 

[Mysteryman]

LOL - I am wondering why all this discussing and none has figured out what a "soul" is yet ?

Maybe when you all figure out what a "soul" is, then , just maybe one can discuss in a logical manner. :D

How many of you know that God and the angels have a soul ?

I am pretty sure it is just you that is confused on what a soul is. Secondly not the topic of this thread.

Hi Watchman

Yes, I know what this thread is all about. But if one does not fully understand what a "soul" truely means, with its full understanding. Then one is just guessing when it comes to the topic of this thread.

Both you and NJB have used the word "soul" inappropiately.

In doing so, both of you are making claims that are not true.

Using biblical references, what is a soul ?

 

[watchman F]

LOL - I am wondering why all this discussing and none has figured out what a "soul" is yet ?

Maybe when you all figure out what a "soul" is, then , just maybe one can discuss in a logical manner. :D

How many of you know that God and the angels have a soul ?

I am pretty sure it is just you that is confused on what a soul is. Secondly not the topic of this thread.

Hi Watchman

Yes, I know what this thread is all about. But if one does not fully understand what a "soul" truely means, with its full understanding. Then one is just guessing when it comes to the topic of this thread.

Well then stop guessing and learn what a soul is.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Watchman

You have a dead soul theory , where dead souls go to heaven. And in your theory, you have dead souls meeting up with their immortal bodies at the return of Christ.

Hi NJB

You claim that the souls under the altar in Rev. 6:9 can't be the saints with their new bodies because they have souls. Then you go on to claim, that you believe (no scripture for your beliefs) that these are martyr's and they range from anyone in the OT that died as well as the NT that died. Then you claim that they are "souls" etc. nonesense !

You , as well as Watchman have no idea what a soul is. And since Watchman does not care. I was wonder if you would be willing to learn what a soul is , by the knowledge of the scriptures ?

Then you might be able to logically make reference to a soul, and what a soul represents.

I was just curious if you were interested in discussing this ? As it is an intricate part of your discussion based upon Rev. 6:9 ? And I would also like to ask one more time, just in case you might be interested. Did you know that God and the angels have a soul ? :yes

 

[Mysteryman]

No wonder there is so much division within the Church . People can not even agree on the simplist of things that are said within the Word of God.

The Word says, that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, we come back with him, the saints.

Anyone that claims that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, and that when he does come back to this earth, that his purpose is to gather up the church. When the Word tells us that this is not his purpose for coming back ! No wonder the Word tells us, that so many hold to many different doctorines of men.

You are right His purpose for returning is not to simply gather the church. It is
#1 to marry His Bride
#2 To judge and purge this world of its wickedness.
#3 To set up His millennial reign.

Only one of His purposes is to gather the church and that would be part of #1 Marrying the Bride.

His Return has - nothing to do with the gathering up of the saints !!

Christ and the body of Christ are already married. They just have not come together as of yet. But they are indeed married ! In a Jewish wedding/marriage, there is a time of waiting. They do not come together right after the wedding is over.

The "gathering" and the "Return" are two totally different events !

 

[watchman F]

Hi Watchman

You have a dead soul theory , where dead souls go to heaven. And in your theory, you have dead souls meeting up with their immortal bodies at the return of Christ.

My souls' not going to die. Your might in the second death, but you would have to speak on that, as for me, my soul will not die.

 

[watchman F]

No wonder there is so much division within the Church . People can not even agree on the simplist of things that are said within the Word of God.

The Word says, that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, we come back with him, the saints.

Anyone that claims that when Christ comes back to this earth, the second coming, and that when he does come back to this earth, that his purpose is to gather up the church. When the Word tells us that this is not his purpose for coming back ! No wonder the Word tells us, that so many hold to many different doctorines of men.

You are right His purpose for returning is not to simply gather the church. It is
#1 to marry His Bride
#2 To judge and purge this world of its wickedness.
#3 To set up His millennial reign.

Only one of His purposes is to gather the church and that would be part of #1 Marrying the Bride.

His Return has - nothing to do with the gathering up of the saints !!

Christ and the body of Christ are already married. They just have not come together as of yet. But they are indeed married ! In a Jewish wedding/marriage, there is a time of waiting. They do not come together right after the wedding is over.

The "gathering" and the "Return" are two totally different events !

Your are deceived, and intent on deceiving others.

 

[veteran]

What you appear to really be saying is, "I've never thought about that before",

Dude, I've heard this "the seals are just information" argument many times in the past. And as my questions indicates, there is no biblical warrant for that statement. So that's why I said, where is this in the Bible? The seals are just what the Bible says they, seals that are keeping a book secure and confidential. What book? The book that God was holding in his Right Hand.

The seals mean the opening up of something. In the case of our Lord's Book of Revelation, it means to reveal, opening up of things previously unknown, a revealing. That's the purpose of the seven seals. But the trumpets, they sound the order of battle. And then the seven vials give the judgments. No one has to have a seminary degree to understand that.

It does matter what order we go by per the seals, trumpets, and vials our Lord gave in Revelation. He gave us the three woe periods with the last three trumpets, and that shows a specific order of events that can't be mixed up or confused. It is a mistake to try and read Revelation as if each chapter follows chronologically. The visions John were given were not always given in chronological order.

Again, there is absolutely no reason to come to this conclusion. The Bible tells us the exact opposite.

There's events given INVOLVING the saints in later chapters, even way past that Rev.6 chapter of the seals. If Revelation was in chronological order, then everything should be over at the 6th seal you're wanting to stay planted upon. By what you infer, we shouldn't even need to study past Revelation chapter 6. Lot of the Pre-Trib folks even stop at Revelation chapter 4, and say everything after that is about those who are 'left-behind' to go through the tribulation. I cited several Revelation examples of events involving the saints in later chapters, which shows our Lord's Book of Revelation is layed out similar to peeling the layers of an onion.

Revelation 1:19 19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus ordered John to write in chronological order. You have no Scripture to demonstrate why it would be okay for John to not follow this command. I never get why people just ignore this verse and say Revelation was written in some chaotic, haphazard fashion.

It's not really hap-hazard, it's simply the way God teaches in His Word. Revelation is not the only Book of The Bible that follows that style. Isaiah 1 covers a summary of events that are further explained as the Book continues, the timeline constantly changing from past, present, and future. Revelation follows that same kind of style, layer after layer being peeled back. In that, Revelation's style is more like the Books of the Old Testament prophets, and less like the New Testament Books like the Gospels, or Acts, which the events do flow chronologically. So no, our Lord Jesus did not specifically tell us, or John, that what he was given to write all flowed in chronological order. That's simply your assumption.

As for your point about saints, it does not seem that compelling. Yes, there are souls of martyrs under the altar. Yes there is a multitude of raptured saints in Chapter 7. The 144,000 being sealed are specifically on a mission from Jesus. The saints who are killed by the Beast are those who convert and refuse to take the mark. All these things are clearly stated in Revelation. it does not indicate some sort of chronological disorder.

You should automatically see a problem with any doctrine that teaches some of the saints are raptured while some saints are left on earth to go through the tribulation. That idea is simply not taught in God's Word regardless of the type of mission some saints might be given. In Rev.7 with the 144,000, those are 'sealed' by God's sealing, meaning those are saints. And per Rev.9, that sealing by God is specifically against the deception that will take place during the tribulation. In other words, those represent Christ's elect servants of Israel. Those of Rev.7:9 forward represent those of the Gentiles who are sealed, out of all nations, and the Scripture shows they also come out of great tribulation, meaning, they suffered through it like those 144,000 do. That's why it mentions their washing their robes, making them white in the Blood of The Lamb. There is no "secret rapture" idea in that Rev.7 at all.

Why do you think our Lord Jesus gave the events in His Book of Revelation in such a fashion? It's so we would have to become a 'workman' in ALL of His Word first. It's so we'd have to FIRST understand the events given, and their relation to the rest of The Bible. So the new Christian gets curious, and thinks since they'd believed on Jesus and been baptized, that they automatically should be able to go into Revelation and understand it WITHOUT first studying the majority of God's Word.

Where are you getting this from? Where are we told that Jesus made Revelation a puzzle of some sort to whet our appetites? This is just pure speculation. I don't see this in the Bible. The Word says to be a "workman" but that's in reference to studying the whole Bible.

Revelation is definitely a puzzle (or riddle) to those who have NOT studied much of God's Word and don't care to do it His Way. That's not speculation, but it is even a Message in God's Word about those who stumble and become snared, Christ and His Word even becoming a 'stone of stumbling' to them, simply because they refuse line upon line study (Isaiah 28; Isaiah 8; 1 Peter 2).

Well, what are the events shown in Rev.11 with the 3rd last woe period? If you'll notice, it's when the 7th trumpet sounds, and at that point all the kingdoms on earth become Christ's posession, and He begins His Milennium reign. On what 'trump' did Apostle Paul teach that the event of the resurrection and change at a twinkling of eye happens on? Didn't you notice 1 Thess.4:16 mentions a trump sounding with Christ's coming to gather His saints? All that certainly is logical, so easy a little child can understand it. And I know many young children that do... understand the resurrection and Christ's coming happens on the 7th trumpet, as written.

1 Thes 4:16 discusses the Last Trump in reference to Christ coming to meet us in the clouds. Not coming to Earth (the Second Coming). And Again, the last Trump is not a reference to the trumpet judgments, it is a reference to the Last Trump of Rosh Hashanah, the Feast of Trumpets. The blowing of the Shofar is the Last Trump. Jesus already fulfilled the spring feasts in His First Coming. Now the Fall Feasts are being fulfilled. Paul, a former Pharisee is making a specific Jewish reference because he knew the readers were familiar with these things. And if you study the old Testament, you'll know that Rosh Hashanah is the only feast where the people do not know the time or day it will be begin. Not to mention that we don't even see Christ until chapter 19. So again, I think you are really off in your biblical interpretation here.

The "last trump" Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 is... the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Trumpets sounded for feast and holy days is one thing, but trumpets sounding the order of battle is another. In Revelation it's about the order of battle, i.e., spiritual battle. You have understood about a battle between two great armies given in Revelation for the very end of this world haven't you? With many, the popular notion that our Lord Jesus is to return some time around the Feast of Trumpets has clouded over the real purpose for the Revelation trumpets, which are about spiritual war.

I don't believe the first four seals are the "day of the Lord" either, nor everything mentioned in the 6th seal (like the untimely figs and falling stars event). The "day of The Lord" begins the first day of Christ's "thousand years" reign on earth. That also is when His coming to gather His saints happens, also when the resurrection happens, and also when the cup of God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked. It ends the "great tribulation", and is the event of Christ's coming to destroy that Wicked (one) of 2 Thess.2.

I keep raising Isaiah 2 to you. The 6th Seal fulfills it. Which means the Day of The lord has begun. Which again means your theory is incorrect. It's just not Biblically supported. Christ's Second Coming and the Day of The Lord are 2 different events. happening at different times.

Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

This is God speaking to the dead. They are going to literally rise form the graves in the same manner Christ did. And they are going to hide in their chambers until the indignation is past. The dead in CHrist rise first. Then we go. Then the Day of The Lord. And this happens at the 6th seal.

Look again at the 6th seal...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

That's the part you say proves the end of it all, with that great earthquake, sun becoming black, and moon as blood, right?

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

But what is that event, with the stars of heaven falling unto the earth like untimely figs? You can go to Isaiah 34 and find this. But what does our Lord mean in the Isaiah 34 version that His sword will also be bathed in Heaven? I'm not going to go deep into that here, but the stars falling like untimely figs is an important endtime event you're missing, and it's associated with the 6th trumpet.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

The last three verses are 7th trumpet events, the time of Christ's coming and His judgment upon the wicked. Don't just skip over the 'woe' examples I mentioned from Rev.11 in my previous post.

 

[veteran]

ONce again you are confusing the day of The Lord with Christ's Second Coming. Here are some Biblical points regarding Christ's Second Coming.

1. The UNSAVED heathen armies, their leaders, the antichrist, false prophet and Satan are all going to travel to the valley of megido to wait for Christ to come.

2. The Euphrates river even supernaturally dries up to prepare away for leaders of the east to make it.

3. The satanic trinity release demons who go out to get the people of the world hyped up for the fight and draw them in.

4. Any Christian or anyone with a Bible can just read the trumpet and vial judgments and know the specific order of events.

5. Or they can just start counting 7 prophetic years from the time the Beastor False Prophet confirms a covenant with the people. Or count 3 1/2 years from the abomination of desolation.

The bible completely supports people knowing Christ is coming. Clearly the unbelieving world cannot be caught off guard because they are traveling the globe to go meet Him. And any believers who are alive during the trumpets and vials will be counting the minutes to His return or just reading in their Bibles and following along. Do you really think the points I listed above are false? They're all biblical and show that this is not the "thief in the night" situation.

It's very clear that Satan himself knows Christ is coming. And it's also clear you haven't spoken much with today's pagans and unbelieving, for they think our Faith is but a joke. They are NOT looking for Christ's coming at all. Those will be deceived by the times. But many 'believers' will be also, and even you if you choose to omit one of the major events our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about, that of false worship to a false messiah who will work great signs and miracles so powerful, that it would almost deceive Christ's elect (i.e., those sealed by God).

How would the coming of a false messiah almost... deceive Christ's elect? That false one would have to claim he is Christ, AND do a show of great miracle working to deceive with. That's specifically what the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is to do in the last days. And Rev.11 points to the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" IN Jerusalem. Keep an eye on today's Jerusalem, for the non-believing Jews are ready to build another temple and start up animal sacrifices again. That's where false messiah will come, like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2, sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself to be God. The majority of the whole world will fall for it, as written. What's sad, is that falling away will include many Christian believers too, the metaphorical five foolish virgins who don't remain sober and watching the times and the seasons. Paul's message of the "another Jesus", with Satan disguised as an angel of light in 2 Cor.11, goes along with his warning in 2 Thess.2 about that false one.

Much of your outline does not fit this Scripture evidence...

1Thes 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(KJV)

Paul says "the day of Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

Apostle Peter also says the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". And with that, he says the heavens shall pass, and the elements shall melt, the earth also.

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

That "day of Christ" phrase Apostle Paul used is the "day of the Lord", because the Greek word for "Christ" in the manuscripts is the word 'kurios', which means 'lord'. Contrast that with the examples of Philippians 1:10 and 2:16 per the Greek.

So what's Paul's subject in those 2 Thess.2:1-2 verses? 3 things...
1. "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2. "our gathering together unto Him"
3. "the day of Christ" (which is actually "the day of The Lord" in the Greek.

I like my outline better, as it actually supports the Scripture.


Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

And then our Lord Jesus Himself says He comes "as a theif". AND, He times that with the battle of Armageddon, which also happens on that day of The Lord. Don't you think it unique that our Lord Jesus put that Rev.16:15 verse of His coming "as a theif" right there in the middle of Scripture describing the battle of Armageddon getting ready to happen? I have no doubt that was to draw our attention back to the type warnings Paul and Peter gave about His coming as a thief on the day of The Lord.

I think you need to go pray about it.