The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

That's all? Of course Romans 4:16-22 talks about Genesis 17. Aren't you going to talk about what I actually said about it? You're not taking the argument to the next logical point of contention which I expected you to do , and which I am ready for.

OK, I wouldn't want to disappoint ...I'll try to get to it a bit later. Time for Mass here on the west coast.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You disregard the foreshadowing of the Gospel message as seen in Genesis 12, whereby Gentiles as represented by uncircumcised Abraham, are initially made righteous, justified by faith.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:5-9

Just as Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him as righteousness, is a reference to Genesis 15, so In you all the nations shall be blessed, is a reference to Genesis 12, and is clearly justification by faith, declared righteous, for it was the first time Abraham was justified.


JLB

I regard the fact that it doesn't say Abraham was justified in Genesis 12. If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
dadof10's whole point is to show us he was, even though it doesn't say in plain words that he was. He said himself he's arguing inference here.

 

[Kidron]

No. I said faith is the conduit through and by which we receive redemption (Romans 5:1-2 NIV). If you truly understood this, why are you saying what you are above?

No, actually i said the Blood Atonement saves us, and our Faith has nothing to do with that after it happens.
That faith is the conduit, that releases the finished work of the cross.
Thats what i said.
What you are explaining, is what i said you would say when i just told JLB what you would say....> is... that we get the salvation, but its not finished unless we keep our faith to the end, which finishes it.
Thats your one endless loop track, JB. > we keep ourselves saved by faith.
And i tell you that the blood atonement keeps you saved and not your faith.
All your faith does is release God to reconcile you back to him, and then HE keeps you saved = because you are now bought back (redeemed) by the blood of Jesus.
So THAT is what keeps you saved., and only that., JB.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, actually i said the Blood Atonement saves us, and our Faith has nothing to do with that after it happens.
That faith is the conduit, that releases the finished work of the cross.
Thats what i said.
What you are explaining, is what i said you would say when i just told JLB what you would say....> is... that we get the salvation, but its not finished unless we keep our faith to the end, which finishes it.
Thats your one endless loop track, JB. > we keep ourselves saved by faith.
And i tell you that the blood atonement keeps you saved and not your faith.
All your faith does is release God to reconcile you back to him, and then HE keeps you saved = because you are now bought back (redeemed) by the blood of Jesus.
So THAT is what keeps you saved., and only that., JB.

No faith means no access to the one and only thing that makes us righteous--the finished work of Christ presented on the altar to God in heaven continually interceding on behalf of the believer (not the unbeliever).

"23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office;24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:23-25 NIV)

What doesn't have to be done over and over and over again is the giving of the sacrifice. But according to the passage above, the intercession associated with that one-time sacrifice is ongoing and held in place on our behalf by our continuing faith ('those who come to God through him'). Stop having faith and the continual life of intercession Jesus always lives before the Father on behalf of those who come to God through him stops being applied to their account.

 

[childeye]

No, actually i said the Blood Atonement saves us, and our Faith has nothing to do with that after it happens.
That faith is the conduit, that releases the finished work of the cross.
Thats what i said.
What you are explaining, is what i said you would say when i just told JLB what you would say....> is... that we get the salvation, but its not finished unless we keep our faith to the end, which finishes it.
Thats your one endless loop track, JB. > we keep ourselves saved by faith.
And i tell you that the blood atonement keeps you saved and not your faith.
All your faith does is release God to reconcile you back to him, and then HE keeps you saved = because you are now bought back (redeemed) by the blood of Jesus.
So THAT is what keeps you saved., and only that., JB.

You sound like you're saying this.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

For what it's worth, I think Jethro Bodine is discussing faith in a relative manner, and you are discussing it in an absolute manner, which forms semantically driven differences. And perhaps visa versa when applicable.

 

[JLB]

I regard the fact that it doesn't say Abraham was justified in Genesis 12. If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:7-8


Here we have the word justified being directly correlated to Genesis 12, which foreshadowed the Gospel, and Abraham's action of obedience leaving us an example of Gentiles who would come after him and walk in the obedience of faith and be justified like Abraham.

I'm sorry you missed that clear and irrefutable connection of being justified by faith in Genesis 12.

At this point, since you have used the unbiblical phrase "believing all by itself" justifies... you can only disregard and deny what the bible so plain says.

In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, comes from Genesis 12, and typtifies the obedience of faith in the Gospel message.

foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand..

Abraham turned away from his former life and obeyed the Lord.

Abraham was justified by faith, [declared righteous], when he left his fathers house and went out to a land not knowing.

We are justified by faith when we obey the Gospel by repenting and confessing Jesus as Lord.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:7-8


Here we have the word justified being directly correlated to Genesis 12, which foreshadowed the Gospel, and Abraham's action of obedience leaving us an example of Gentiles who would come after him and walk in the obedience of faith and be justified like Abraham.

I'm sorry you missed that clear and irrefutable connection of being justified by faith in Genesis 12.

At this point, since you have used the unbiblical phrase "believing all by itself" justifies... you can only disregard and deny what the bible so plain says.

In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, comes from Genesis 12, and typtifies the obedience of faith in the Gospel message.

foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand..

Abraham turned away from his former life and obeyed the Lord.

Abraham was justified by faith, [declared righteous], when he left his fathers house and went out to a land not knowing.

We are justified by faith when we obey the Gospel by repenting and confessing Jesus as Lord.



JLB

The problem with your inference that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, and was then (supposedly) re-justified in Genesis 15 is what I told dadof10: It's not only impossible to be justified twice (Hebrews 6:4-6), but it is also unnecessary (for the person who has faith) to be re-justified (Hebrews 10:14).

Just follow along with my discussion with dadof10.

 

[smaller]

This is not a "counter", this is a farce. Catholic, Orthodox and ALL Protestant denominations hold that Abraham NEEDED to be and WAS justified.

Not one engagement with God in Christ and Abraham is any different in the spiritual senses than with ALL whom God has called in their hearts.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

No man is capable of stopping any of God's Actions.

You and your ilk are such a tiny minority that it's not even worth arguing the point. Scripture says he was justified. That point isn't even arguable, so I'm not going to. It's a waste of time.

Hmmm? "Me and my ilk?" Have I measured any "ills" to you? No.

Keep working. I'm sure you and your group of sinners are 100% right.

I took the route that I am wrong, but it is honest. And honesty is from God in Christ.

 

[ezra]

Again, I know what you think justified means. Looking at the evidence I presented in the OP and to Jethro above, do you think that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12? If not, why not?

JUSTIFICATION
https://www.mywsb.com/reader

Divine, forensic act of God, based on the work of Christ upon the cross, whereby a sinner is pronounced righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. The doctrine of justification is developed most fully by the Apostle Paul as the central truth explaining how both Jew and Gentile can be made right before God on the exact same basis, that being faith in Jesus Christ. Without this divine truth, there can be no unity in the body of Christ, hence its centrality to Paul’s theology of the Church and salvation. once again i ask you to show works as being justified {do you think that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12?} he was acting upon faith 6And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. .you have to remember at this point he was only Abram. when he became ABRAHAM in chapter 17 .we dont know the exact time frame . .it really dont matter what i or you think at what time he was justified .the justification come from God. not what Abraham did . beyond that if you feel you can be justified by works so be it. work away

 

[dadof10]

JUSTIFICATION
https://www.mywsb.com/reader

Divine, forensic act of God, based on the work of Christ upon the cross, whereby a sinner is pronounced righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. The doctrine of justification is developed most fully by the Apostle Paul as the central truth explaining how both Jew and Gentile can be made right before God on the exact same basis, that being faith in Jesus Christ. Without this divine truth, there can be no unity in the body of Christ, hence its centrality to Paul’s theology of the Church and salvation. once again i ask you to show works as being justified {do you think that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12?} he was acting upon faith 6And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. .you have to remember at this point he was only Abram. when he became ABRAHAM in chapter 17 .we dont know the exact time frame . .it really dont matter what i or you think at what time he was justified .the justification come from God. not what Abraham did . beyond that if you feel you can be justified by works so be it. work away

I never claimed "works as being justified". You can choose any method of justification you want. If you believe the completely unbiblical "justification by faith alone", fine. Just answer the question, was Abraham justified (by faith alone, if you want) in Gen. 12? If not, why not?

 

[ezra]

what does it say? he believed and it was granted to him righteousness . i really shouldn't waste my time with you. when we are saved its by Grace through faith.. so by our faith in accepting calling on God to be saved yes we are justified by faith may i ask what Paul wrote ? Romans 5:1 Therefore being " justified by faith," we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: saving faith justifies us. sorta like backing a cake it takes all the ingredients to be saved minus the works that you cling to

 

[Kidron]

No faith means no access to the one and only thing that makes us righteous--the finished work of Christ presented on the altar to God in heaven continually interceding on behalf of the believer (not the unbeliever).

"23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office;24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:23-25 NIV)

No faith means no access to the one and only thing that makes us righteous--the finished work of Christ presented on the altar to God in heaven continually interceding on behalf of the believer (not the unbeliever).


How is it that you have concluded that being "born again", means "being born again"?
As this is exactly how you are describing salvation.......as its a lifetime process of getting there instead of a Gift of God that is given for free.
The good news is, the blood atonement has been Applied to a believer and the death of Jesus has been accepted on their behalf as payment for all their sins.
And this is not a process, its an EVENT, ..its a new birth, and its happens once and its instant.

Here....Paul explains what HAS happened, to a believer.

1 Corinthians 6:11..... """"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."""""

Now, did you notice the tense?.....its all past tense, as in HAS BEEN DONE.
And its all been done when you are on the earth the moment you believe the Gospel and trust Christ.
You >HAVE< BEEN WASHED IN THE BLOOD, YOU >HAVE< BEEN SANCTIFIED BY THE CROSS, YOU >HAVE> BEEN JUSTIFIED BY THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS.
So, this is why you are not in a process of getting saved or in a process of salvation that requires you holding onto your faith till its accomplished.
Your FAITH already released from GOD the justification and the sanctification and the blood atonement.
1 Corinthians 6:11..... """"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."""""
ALL THIS HAS BEEN accomplished, once you are born again.


25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, (Hebrews 7:23-25 NIV)


Did you actually read that before you posted it, as it argues against your theology.
Let me break it down for you.
"therefore JESUS is able to save COMPLETELY (by himself) those who come to God ( believe the Gospel) through him".

So, do you see what you have posted.
You have posted that Jesus saves COMPLETELY all those who believe the Gospel, and no works later required, and no holding onto faith is required later., as Jesus has SAVED THEM COMPLETELY, ALREADY.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "completely"?.
How about this phrases.....SAVE COMPLETELY?
And who did it?......was it FAITH?
Was it hanging on to faith?
Not quite.
It is JESUS who saves completely once you come to the Father through him and THAT is why Paul said a believer "HAS BEEN SANCTIFIED AND HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED AND Has Been WASHED IN THE BLOOD"
This is called a "done deal".
This is JESUS on a Cross saying......."it IS Finished- Accomplished"
Are you familiar with that verse?....as that scripture just explained it to you, regarding what saves, how they do it, and WHO does it.
Nothing about keeping faith or commandments.

 

[Kidron]

You sound like you're saying this.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

For what it's worth, I think Jethro Bodine is discussing faith in a relative manner, and you are discussing it in an absolute manner, which forms semantically driven differences. And perhaps visa versa when applicable.

Thank you.
And i wish that JB and myself only had semantical differences..
However, and because JB will argue that your faith is what sustains your salvation and that is why you have to hold on to it, then he is teaching the idea that Faith is your salvation and once your faith goes, so go you to hell after you die.
Of course this is nonsense.
The fact is, Faith before you are saved, only helps you to receive from God what SAVES YOU, and that is Salvation.
After this happens, you dont need faith for what has already been given and applied and sealed unto you.
So, subsequent to this, you use your faith not to remain saved, as JB obsesses about, but rather as a Child of God who is now in a spiritual kingdom, having been translated from darkness to light, = you use your faith to access God's help.
This is realized as "prayers" and "prayers being answered"., as that is what faith is used for and only that, as you dont need it TWICE on behalf of God saving you.....as this has already happened.....therefore you only need faith after you are saved, to get prayers answered.

1 Corinthians 6:11..... """"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."""""

Notice how all these aspects of Salvation are spoken of in the past tense, and not as a process that is not finished yet?
There is a reason for that, and JB has not understood this, yet, and that is why we have our discussion about it.

 

[JLB]

The problem with your inference that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, and was then (supposedly) re-justified in Genesis 15 is what I told dadof10: It's not only impossible to be justified twice (Hebrews 6:4-6), but it is also unnecessary (for the person who has faith) to be re-justified (Hebrews 10:14).

Just follow along with my discussion with dadof10.

Well I actually given scripture that tells us Abraham was indeed justified by faith in Genesis 12.

Here's mine again, since you have obviously overlooked what the scripture says.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:7-8

Abraham was justified, [for the first time] when he obeyed God, when he was called to go out...

Hebrews 11 confirms -

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

This action foreshadows the Gospel message, and us being justified by faith, as we obey the Gospel by turning to God and turning from our former life... as Paul teaches us foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”


As I wrote, is was Abraham's act of obedience in Genesis 15, when he went out of his tent and looked up into the sky according to God's Voice.

5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5-6

Abraham believed God, because he heard His Voice, and obeyed when God moved upon him to go out of his tent and look up into the sky.

This is the obedience of faith, demonstrated by Abraham yet again in Genesis 15.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

You've got a very big problem with your theory. You have explained that it is necessary to be re-justified because of failing faith (doubt, not apostasy).

18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Look at the passage. If Abraham never became weak in faith from the time he believed God when God said "So shall your descendants be" (Genesis 15:5), and even grew stronger in his faith in Genesis 17 when "he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old" when God said the promised son will come from Sarah, how is that the basis for your argument that justification is a process because of doubt? His faith never wavered that he should need to be re-justified.

Then maybe it's not "faith alone" or "lack of doubt" that justifies. You believe it's an "obedient faith" that saves, which assumes that our actions at least "show" our true faith. It's not much of a reach to believe that we can lose our justification the same way.

Paul is describing Abraham's unwavering, even growing faith, not a need to be re-justified because of doubt. This passage not only does not show Abraham being re-justified, but shows that it is not even necessary for him to be re-justified (because of doubt as you say).

Please...."Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS" "does not show Abraham being re-justified"???? Really? What does it show then?

In the eyes of your doctrine and your understanding of justification, he is maintaining, even growing, not diminishing, the basis for the justification he received in Genesis 15:6.

Because someone "grows in faith" doesn't mean they never doubt, does it? Is this how you "grow in faith", perfectly? The truth that you are confronted with is that Paul says that Abraham was justified in Gen. 17. This is what you need to mix into your theology. It has been proved to you that people are justified more than once. It's up to you to figure out why.

 

[dadof10]

That's all? Of course Romans 4:16-22 talks about Genesis 17.

Then, Abraham was justified in Gen. 17, because it explicitly says "Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness." I guess we can all go home now? 2

 

[dadof10]

And here it is, your teaching a works doctrine, justification is a one time event, the entire chapter of Galatians 2 is devoted to this..

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

what your attempting to do is in verse 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

We have liberty in Christ and the devil can't stand it, and it appears you don't understand it, all your doing is frustrating the grace of God..

tob

tob

Copy...Paste

OK, let's see how this goes. I believe that a person has to have obedient faith in order to be justified. If a person (you or I) stops having an obedient faith, we cease to be justified. Some people think it doesn't matter whether we continue in obedient faith, justification is a one time event that can never be lost, not a process. Those who think that way are wrong. Scripture teaches that justification is a process and we must continue in obedient faith or we are in danger of losing our justification. Good enough? OK. Please go ahead and tell me whether you think Abraham was justified more than once and your reason for thinking that way.

I answered your question, now it's your turn to answer mine instead of another "my subjective Bible reading tells me this is what justification is" post. I know what justification is to you. Was Abraham justified in Gen. 12? What about Gen. 17? If you want me to, I can link my posts that lay it out for you....Or you can just ignore it and rat-a-tat-tat another drive-by post...

 

[turnorburn]

That's a works doctrine, therefore another gospel not the gospel of Jesus Christ, we are justified only because of his sacrifice not ours. I'm doing things Gods way, its his will not ours, do you even know what the will of God is?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Stop trying to bring the members of this forum into bondage with the works of the law..

tob

 

[dadof10]

Hebrews 11 only talks about real, live justifying faith? How 'bout this?

"3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Hebrews 11:3 NIV)

Is this an example of the faith that justifies? Of course not.

Partially, yes. By itself, no. This would be a first step toward what is in the rest of the chapter. How could you believe in a God that did not create? It's part of our faith, but then he moves on to a faith that makes righteous, which you will not address. To pull this verse out by itself and put it against the overwhelming evidence presented in my last post is laughable.

Let me ask this again:

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Heb 11:7 KJV)

The author is describing a "faith" that made him an "heir of righteousness". Obviously this faith that Noah had was able to justify him.The very next sentence...

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." (V. 8 KJV)

To hold your view that the faith being described in Heb. 11:8 (the faith Abraham had in Gen. 12) was a "dead faith", you have to believe that the author all of a sudden, and for no apparent reason went from describing Noah's justifying faith saying he "became heir of the righteousness which is by faith" to describing a "dead faith" using the same exact words, back to back with no other words in between!!! Really???

The last word in verse 7 is "pistis". The first word in verse 8 is "pistis". Are we really supposed to believe that the first "pistis" made Noah an "heir of righteousness" and the second "pistis" means Abraham had a "dead faith"?

Do you really think that's idea the author meant to convey?

You can take one verse out of context and attempt to prove that Abraham had a "dead commendable faith" in Gen. 12, because this is the only other option to a justifying faith, a dead faith. The author says that Noah was an "heir of the righteousness which is by faith", then turns around and says "By dead commendable faith Abraham..." Really????

I see it as an example of faith, but certainly not an example of justifying faith, so we can't make the generalization that Hebrews 11 is only about justifying faith in order to prove that Abraham was justified when he left his father's homeland (Hebrews 11:8). I do see it as a chapter about commendable faith, because that's what the author actually says:

"39 These were all commended for their faith" (Hebrews 11:30 NIV)

Hummm...we are switching to the NIV now? Why? Maybe because the NASB, which you always use says this in v.39:

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised," (Heb 11:39 NASB)

This ties it to verse 2, which says "For by it the men of old gained approval." (Heb 11:2 NASB)

Gained approval from Whom, Jethro? Is "commendable" dead faith which can not justify, approved by God? Please don't say yes...

 

[dadof10]

That's a works doctrine, therefore another gospel not the gospel of Jesus Christ, we are justified only because of his sacrifice not ours. I'm doing things Gods way, its his will not ours, do you even know what the will of God is?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Stop trying to bring the members of this forum into bondage with the works of the law..

tob

Rat-a-tat-tat...