The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

This is starting to sound like the teaching of Tim Staples.. a works doctrine that has nothing to do with being justified by faith

tob

Was Tim Staples mentioned on this thread? Is this thread about what justifies us or about why Abraham was justified twice? This has nothing to do with the topic and is just another drive by post. I'll be expecting another one shortly...

 

[dadof10]

Do I see any difference? Very little actually.

Years ago I studied and studied in preparation for a Bible study trying to discern how Abraham's faith is somehow like our faith in Christ that he should be the father and example of our faith and how our faith also will be credited to us as righteousness (Romans 4:23-24). Then it occurred to me it's because he, like us, had faith in God's word that he would provide a son coming from our own bodies that would inherit the promises on our behalf. Understand?


Sounds good, but actually our faith is in God, too, though we do throw around the words that our faith is 'in Christ'.

"20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." (1 Peter 1:20-21 NASB)



In Genesis 15, Abraham had the same opportunity to believe in a son that God would provide that would inherit the blessing on our behalf that we do. It's not as different from how we are justified as you think. That's why I believe it's no accident, but very purposeful, that Abraham is justified in Genesis 15, not Genesis 12, or any other time, because that is where he receives the very specific revelation about a son who would inherit the promises for him. It's the same gospel we have today.

OK, I guess we could go into how the authors of Scripture saw Abraham in relation to Christ and how Christ is God so Abraham actually had faith in Christ. We could discuss what the "promise" is and how that reveals Christ in Messianic theology. But remember your whole reason for the example of Cornelius is a straw man. I don't believe that ALL faith is justifying faith. You say that Cornelius could be added to Heb. 11 in an attempt to minimize the "faith" talked about there. To turn it from the "live" faith that justified Abel, Noah and Rahab into a "dead" faith for absolutely no organic, Scriptural reason but to only keep your OJAJ doctrine. This is why you are so hesitant to discuss the nuts and bolts of Gen. 12 and Heb. 11. You have no reason to believe that the author of Hebrews switched from describing a faith that brings "righteousness" to Abel and Noah to a faith that doesn't bring righteousness to Abraham.

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Heb 11:7 KJV)

The author is describing a "faith" that made him an "heir of righteousness". Obviously this faith that Noah had was able to justify him. The very next sentence...

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." (V. 8 KJV)

To hold your view that the faith being described in Heb. 11:8 (the faith Abraham had in Gen. 12) was a "dead faith", you have to believe that the author all of a sudden, and for no apparent reason went from describing Noah's justifying faith saying he "became heir of the righteousness which is by faith" to describing a "dead faith" using the same exact words, back to back with no other words in between!!! Really???

The last word in verse 7 is "pistis". The first word in verse 8 is "pistis". Are we really supposed to believe that the first "pistis" made Noah an "heir of righteousness" and the second "pistis" means Abraham had a "dead faith"? Do you really think that's idea the author meant to convey?

I don't think that "every instance of faith" is a faith that justifies. I just think there is overwhelming, indisputable evidence that Hebrews 11 talks only about real, live, justifying faith.

 

[JLB]

Uh, no.

Romans 4:16-22 is a reference to Genesis 15, the one and only place it says Abraham was justified (as in 'made' righteous).

The one and only place?

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Romans 4:16-22

Romans 4:16-22 does not say Abraham was justified.

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6

Genesis 15:6 does not say Abraham was justified.

It says Abraham was "accredited" with righteousness.


The scripture Paul uses to teach us that Gentiles are justified by faith comes from the example, [type and shadow] in the old testament, taken from Genesis 12, not from Genesis 15.

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you,does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Paul uses the phrase "accounted to him as righteousness", which is a reference to Genesis 15.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:5-9


In you all the nations shall be blessed... is a reference to Genesis 12, and foreshadows the Gospel, in which we are justified by faith.


Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


Genesis 12, is where Abraham [A Gentile; uncircumcised] was justified [declared righteous], thus foreshadowing the Gentiles being justified by faith in Jesus Christ according to the Gospel.

The principle of faith, [hearing and obeying] is seen in Genesis 15, whereby the scriptures says... he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

The principle of faith is hearing and obeying.

Abraham heard God.
Abraham obeyed God.

Without hearing God, there is no faith...

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you,does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Galatians 3:5-6

The reason we know Abraham believed God, is because Abraham obeyed God.

But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:2-5

The Lord encouraging His faithful servant Abraham...

Abraham obeyed and went outside and looked up at the stars in response to the faith producing word from God, which demonstrated he both heard God and believed God.


Can you see that faith, all by itself, without the corresponding action of obedience is dead, and can not produce a divine result.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

justified by faith grace the blood. you keep wanting to add works in. works come after salvation .no amount of obedience self effort can make anyone justified.. we are justified { just as if we had never sinned } the moment we are saved/ it,s all done by GOD. he wipes our past clean.. keep on working your way to heaven and someday if your read . your bible close enough you might see its only through Jesus we are justified not works . how many post does it take to show you this?

Again, I know what you think justified means. Looking at the evidence I presented in the OP and to Jethro above, do you think that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12? If not, why not?

 

[JLB]

Again, I know what you think justified means. Looking at the evidence I presented in the OP and to Jethro above, do you think that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12? If not, why not?

Of course Abraham was justified [declared righteous] in Genesis 12.

Genesis 12 is the foreshadowing of the Gospel in which Gentiles are justified by faith.

Abraham representing the uncircumcised Gentiles who hears the word of the Lord [Gospel] and obeys, and is justified by faith.

Abraham was made righteous by his obedience.

OK, I guess we could go into how the authors of Scripture saw Abraham in relation to Christ and how Christ is God so Abraham actually had faith in Christ.

That's the only way to see it.
Same Lord.

When Abraham obeyed and got out [Genesis 12]... He did so by faith in the same Lord Jesus as we do, and was justified [made righteous] as we are, by the same faith from the same Lord.



JLB

 

[dadof10]

You've got a very big problem with your theory. You have explained that it is necessary to be re-justified because of failing faith (doubt, not apostasy).

18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Look at the passage. If Abraham never became weak in faith from the time he believed God when God said "So shall your descendants be" (Genesis 15:5), and even grew stronger in his faith in Genesis 17 when "he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old" when God said the promised son will come from Sarah, how is that the basis for your argument that justification is a process because of doubt? His faith never wavered that he should need to be re-justified.

Paul is describing Abraham's unwavering, even growing faith, not a need to be re-justified because of doubt. This passage not only does not show Abraham being re-justified, but shows that it is not even necessary for him to be re-justified (because of doubt as you say). In the eyes of your doctrine and your understanding of justification, he is maintaining, even growing, not diminishing, the basis for the justification he received in Genesis 15:6.

Oh, Jethro. I'm not the one with the problem. Here you go again, trying to make this about "the nature of justification", which is really just your opinion of what justification is to you. Rom. 4:18-22 obviously refers to Gen. 17 so I guess it's really the only defense you have. When the facts change, your opinion should change and the facts have changed for you. Rom. 4:18-22 says Abraham was justified in Gen. 17, Heb. 11 says Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. Those are facts. Obviously this is a big problem if you are going to hold on to your OJAJ doctrine and keep insisting that justification is by faith alone and not by obedient faith, like salvation is to you.

 

[dadof10]

Of course Abraham was justified [declared righteous] in Genesis 12.

Genesis 12 is the foreshadowing of the Gospel in which Gentiles are justified by faith.

Abraham representing the uncircumcised Gentiles who hears the word of the Lord [Gospel] and obeys, and is justified by faith.

Abraham was made righteous by his obedience.





That's the only way to see it.
Same Lord.

When Abraham obeyed and got out... He did so by faith in the same Lord Jesus as we do.



JLB

And what about my exegesis of Rom. 4? Do you think it holds water? In passing, I really appreciate your views they are well though out and doctrinally sound.

 

[JLB]

And what about my exegesis of Rom. 4? Do you think it holds water? In passing, I really appreciate your views they are well though out and doctrinally sound.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Romans 4:1-2

This is a reference to Genesis 15, not 17. I think that's where Jethro disagrees with you.

I do agree with what you say, concerning the obedience of faith... for the justified ones will live [continuously] by continuous acts of obedient faith.

Please copy and paste your exegesis of Romans 4 to me in a private message.


Thank you for the work you put in, and the many very sound truths that you take time to share with us.


Thanks JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Kidron writes:
""""""If God accepts only our Faith in return for Him Instantly crediting HIS Righteous to us, then who are we to try to prove this isnt the case?"""""

Jethro Bodine responds:

You must have me confused with someone else in this forum who is trying to prove that, because I'm certainly not


well, JB, here is the issue.....
You say that you understand that we are instantly born again when we believe the Gospel and trust Christ, and that we are instantly justified, by GOD, yet your next step will be to try to tear down what God has already completed by saying....."but we have to keep our faith, or we LOSE what God has provided" ,..so, you are actually contradicting yourself.
So, that is the issue.
The issue is that you try to undo what cant be undone , which is, being born again.
See you actually believe that you can be "unborn again" if a Christian "stops believing" or does not "maintain their faith to the end"
And the reason this is absolutely and completely wrong theologically, is that you are misunderstanding the fact that its God who has re-birthed you through the Holy Spirit, and NOT you faith.
JB, all your faith does one time, is release God into your situation for a one time eternal redemption.....So, its not faith that redeems, it GOD who redeems once, when you initially believe.
And this is why you are SAVED.
See that word?.......SAVED........it has a "D" on the end......because its completed-finished, and does not require any more faith to get it to remain......and that is why you dont hold unto your faith to maintain what is already finished.
So, you try to maintain your redemption by your faith, but it not your faith that redeemed you, so your lack of faith is not able after to cancel your redemption as faith isnt your redemption......Jesus is.
So you are trusting your faith to keep you redeemed, instead of trusting Jesus who redeemed you and who is in fact your redemption.
Its odd that you cant grasp that if you trusted Jesus to save you, that you later have decided to trust "keeping your faith to the end" as what saves you.

Well, you remembered this much of my argument.
Any chance you heard and can remember the rest of my argument and address my POV completely and fairly?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, Jethro. I'm not the one with the problem. Here you go again, trying to make this about "the nature of justification", which is really just your opinion of what justification is to you. Rom. 4:18-22 obviously refers to Gen. 17 so I guess it's really the only defense you have. When the facts change, your opinion should change and the facts have changed for you. Rom. 4:18-22 says Abraham was justified in Gen. 17, Heb. 11 says Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. Those are facts. Obviously this is a big problem if you are going to hold on to your OJAJ doctrine and keep insisting that justification is by faith alone and not by obedient faith, like salvation is to you.

That's all? Of course Romans 4:16-22 talks about Genesis 17. Aren't you going to talk about what I actually said about it? You're not taking the argument to the next logical point of contention which I expected you to do , and which I am ready for.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine said: ↑
Uh, no.

Romans 4:16-22 is a reference to Genesis 15, the one and only place it says Abraham was justified (as in 'made' righteous).​

The one and only place?

Genesis 15:6 is the only place where it says Abraham was made righteous (justified--https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV).

 

[Kidron]

Well, you remembered this much of my argument.
Any chance you heard and can remember the rest of my argument and address my POV completely and fairly?

You only have one argument.
"keeping faith till the end saves us".
So, you are saying that keeping faith is what saves, and not the blood atonement or the actual redemption that has ALREADY been applied by God.
No worries.
I know your argument, as you have certainly written it enough.
A simplified version of your pov regarding faith is this......."God keeps us as long as we keep faith and we get rid of our own salvation and go to hell, if we dont keep it".
And the issue with that, is once again, its not keeping faith that saves, as Faith has already accessed the SALVATION that saved you once you believed.
So, >Salvation SAVED YOU< the blood atonement applied to you SAVED you, , and not keeping faith later or "to the end".
Listen, all that faith can do for you or not do for you after you are saved, is get your prayers answered or not.
Thats it.

 

[JLB]

Jethro Bodine said: ↑
Uh, no.

Romans 4:16-22 is a reference to Genesis 15, the one and only place it says Abraham was justified (as in 'made' righteous).


Genesis 15:6 is the only place where it says Abraham was made righteous (justified--https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV).

If that is what you believe because you read some commentary?

Why would you say Romans 4:16-22 and Genesis 15 is the only place Abraham was justified [declared righteous] when I wrote out those verses and there is no mention of the word justified.


Abraham, according to the Gospel, and the scriptures here listed, teaches that Abraham was indeed justified by faith in Genesis 12.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:5-9


In you all the nations shall be blessed... is a reference to Genesis 12, and foreshadows the Gospel, in which we are justified by faith.


Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


Genesis 12, is where Abraham [A Gentile; uncircumcised] was justified [declared righteous], thus foreshadowing the Gentiles being justified by faith in Jesus Christ according to the Gospel.

Please read these plain and clear words that actually use the word justified and refer to Genesis 12, which was the first time Abraham was justified, [declared righteous] made righteous by faith.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think that "every instance of faith" is a faith that justifies. I just think there is overwhelming, indisputable evidence that Hebrews 11 talks only about real, live, justifying faith.

Hebrews 11 only talks about real, live justifying faith? How 'bout this?

"3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Hebrews 11:3 NIV)

Is this an example of the faith that justifies? Of course not.
I see it as an example of faith, but certainly not an example of justifying faith, so we can't make the generalization that Hebrews 11 is only about justifying faith in order to prove that Abraham was justified when he left his father's homeland (Hebrews 11:8). I do see it as a chapter about commendable faith, because that's what the author actually says:

"39 These were all commended for their faith" (Hebrews 11:30 NIV)

 

[JLB]

A simplified version of your pov regarding faith is this......."God keeps us as long as we keep faith and we get rid of our own salvation and go to hell, if we dont keep it".

This is a complete perversion of what this man teaches here, and grossly misrepresents what he says.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 11 ONLY talks about real, live justifying faith? How 'bout this?

"3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Hebrews 11:3 NIV)

Is this an example of the faith that justifies? Of course not.
I see it as an example of faith, but certainly not an example of justifying faith, so we can't make the generalization that Hebrews 11 is only about justifying faith in order to prove that Abraham was justified when he left his father's homeland (Hebrews 11:8). I do see it as a chapter about commendable faith, because that's what the author actually says:

"39 These were all commended for their faith" (Hebrews 11:30 NIV)

You disregard the foreshadowing of the Gospel message as seen in Genesis 12, whereby Gentiles as represented by uncircumcised Abraham, are initially made righteous, justified by faith.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:5-9

Just as Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him as righteousness, is a reference to Genesis 15, so In you all the nations shall be blessed, is a reference to Genesis 12, and is clearly justification by faith, declared righteous, for it was the first time Abraham was justified.


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Was Tim Staples mentioned on this thread? Is this thread about what justifies us or about why Abraham was justified twice? This has nothing to do with the topic and is just another drive by post. I'll be expecting another one shortly...

And here it is, your teaching a works doctrine, justification is a one time event, the entire chapter of Galatians 2 is devoted to this..

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

what your attempting to do is in verse 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

We have liberty in Christ and the devil can't stand it, and it appears you don't understand it, all your doing is frustrating the grace of God..

tob

tob

 

[Kidron]

This is a complete perversion of what this man teaches here, and grossly misrepresents what he says.

Actually, JB will post a scripture about keeping faith to the END, as his verse he will use to try to prove that Faith, and keeping Faith to the end, saves you.
This is because he believes that if you dont keep this faith to the end, you are lost, because you didnt = keeping faith saves you.
As he will tell you., if you ask him.
So, That is not the Gospel., that is not what saves you, and he will be happy to post his scripture to prove my point.
He will write it like this.
"yes, i believe that we are saved by the blood of Christ, but if we dont keep our faith to the END, we are not saved in the end".
Then he will post his scripture and then feel he has proven his point.
Ask him yourself., if you dont believe me.
He'll prove it to you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, you are saying that keeping faith is what saves, and not the blood atonement or the actual redemption that has ALREADY been applied by God.

No. I said faith is the conduit through and by which we receive redemption (Romans 5:1-2 NIV). If you truly understood this, why are you saying what you are above?

If that is what you believe because you read some commentary?

Lol, you should know better than that!

I know your argument, as you have certainly written it enough.
A simplified version of your pov regarding faith is this......."God keeps us as long as we keep faith and we get rid of our own salvation and go to hell, if we dont keep it".
And the issue with that, is once again, its not keeping faith that saves, as Faith has already accessed the SALVATION that saved you once you believed.
So, >Salvation SAVED YOU< the blood atonement applied to you SAVED you, , and not keeping faith later or "to the end".
Listen, all that faith can do for you or not do for you after you are saved, is get your prayers answered or not.
Thats it.

Peter has a different opinion about it than you:

"an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NIV)

And so does Paul:

"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

But your doctrine says I don't have to have faith to be shielded by God's power until the coming of my salvation, and I don't have to hold firmly (possess, lol) the word that was preached to me.

Indoctrinations have trained so many Protestants to not see the plain words of scripture right under our noses. It's scary.

 

[dadof10]

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Romans 4:1-2

This is a reference to Genesis 15, not 17. I think that's where Jethro disagrees with you.

Right. But Paul also talks about Abraham's faith in Gen. 17, right before he was circumcised, and says ""Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Rom 4:22 NASB)